Discussion: Afghanistan II

[Kelly]

I can agree with that...

 

[Paradoxium]

Lets hope the withdrawal is expedited and genuine. I will be happy for the troops who can go home.

 

[8wid]

White house invites conspiracy theorists

 

[Marx]

UPDATE: PRESIDENT OBAMA TO ANNOUNCE AFGHAN WITHDRAWAL PLAN
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/06/21/obama.afghanistan.troops/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[dnno1]

US vs. Taliban Chess Set

 

[Marx]

UPDATE: PRESIDENT KARZAI SUPPORTS US WITHDRAWAL PLAN
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/06/23/afghanistan.karzai/index.html

 

[DACrowe]

Huh. I thought there'd be a ton of posts in here from the last week.

Last week was a huge deal. I'm unsurprised that the military brass and the neocons are frustrated/angry we're leaving or that the left is angry that we're not leaving fast enough to their beliefs, but I'm just grateful that this marks the beginning of the end of the Bush era.

By leaving Afghanistan now, we've decided to cut our losses. Nation building in a land that has never been a nation after thousands of years was a decades-long undertaking to say the least. We should not have been saving troops for Iraq in 2001. We should have gotten Bin Laden ten years ago and have been out several years later. Afghanistan has festered into a nation building project that I just can't see ending any differently than Vietnam. One day we're going to leave and after that Karzai's government will probably crumble to the Taliban.

Oh well. It's tragic, but we should not have been invested in propping up this corrupt government for a decade. We simply cannot do it without policing that land for the next 30-40 years. Obama made a big mistake IMO in listening to Petraeus, McChrystal and the Pentagon in late 2009. Biden's counterproposal is how we ultimately got Bin Laden and we could be a year into withdraw now and out entirely before 2014. I respect the POTUS standing up to the hawks finally, I just wish he had done it sooner.

I understand the left wanting us out next year and the military not wanting to leave until we have a clear victory. The problem with the latter is we have never had a defined goal of what victory is (al-Qaeda has survived in Pakistan and Yemen with support from the Pakistani, Iranian and Saudi governments just fine outside of Afghanistan). If the goal is to build a self-sufficient democratic nation in Afghanistan, which it seems to be, it is unattainable without a decades more of war.

In short, I'm happy we're finally moving away from the big army, nation building warfare of the last ten years and we can finally stop fighting Vietnam by literally stopping the fight in Afghanistan. However, I am open but weary to the withdrawal speed. Obama, heeding some military suggestions, seems to think this slow withdrawal pace will prevent a major collapse in Afghanistan (with us there) and save American lives. If we can pull this off without major American casualties, I am fine with it. But if this slow withdrawal ends in a year-long Saigon....well that would be a terrible mistake.

 

[StorminNorman]

I hope he has the guts to follow through, even if the generals complaints get louder.

 

[8wid]

I for one think there should have been no large scale military invasion of Afghanistan or Iraq in the first place. The CIA backed with a small military hunting team could have done the job in that time if they really wanted. Bin Laden wasn't capable of repeating attacks the size of 9/11 he could have taken care of that way. If there had been no wars hundreds of thousands would not be dead right now and millions not displaced. There would be no economic depression because of regulatory policy and the military industrial complex could have stayed smaller. I hope out of all this, with the celebrations at the death of Bin Laden I'm not so sure, but Americans realize that revenge is nothing but evil and blind, and that America hasn't decisively won a war since World War II. There was no country this time to hit, but American wanted to anyway.

I hope once the war in Afghanistan ends and Al-Qaeda no longer exists, Ron Paul will be as dynamic as Kennedy or Reagan with future changes.

 

[DACrowe]

The wars had little to do with deregulation (which I agree helped contribute to our economic crisis today). It did contribute to our staggering deficits/debt though. Also, I'd say the Gulf War (1991) was a pretty clean, cut victory. And while Korea was carved in half, I'd put that down in a winning column.

Lastly, leaving Afghanistan in 2014, whether we kill a slew more of al-Qaeda leaders hiding in Pakistan or not, will not make "Al-Qaeda no longer exist." It is a generational thing and quite frankly it isn't like we can kill them all. It is a cultural problem that will force us to continue to remain vigilant in our intelligence community and security. While I agree that we are finally closing the book on the Bush era, we're never going back (at least in our lifetimes) to what it was before. With that said, you can protect the US and her allies, as well as fight extremism without invading countries and spending decades trying to instill democracies on skeptical citizens. The Bush Doctrine (which was the neocon solution to losing Vietnam) has proven tragically costly and still more than questionably effective. We as a country must move on.

P.S. I don't think Paul would be like Kennedy or Reagan as he probably hates both of their tenures and what they represented. Albeit, Paul will never be president, so the point is moot.

 

[Matt]

I personally think that the day after Bin Laden died, Obama should have announced that our mission in the Middle East is accomplished, special forces and intelligence would continue operations to hunt Al-Queda but the ground mission is over and he should have begun to pull out on that day. It would've been a bold move, but also brilliant.

 

[Marx]

TALIBAN GUNMEN AND SUICIDE BOMBERS ATTACK LUXURY HOTEL IN KABUL
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/06/28/afghanistan.kabul.attack/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[andrewmac1]

Thanks for this great information.

 

[8wid]

Deregulation is another factor in the economy but I think the extra spending on the wars gave more opportunity to take advantage of the system. Al-Qaeda can be destroyed as an organization, but the does not effect radical Islamic groups of all backgrounds. The KKK was destroyed in the U.S. as an organization for a few decades after the American Civil War by the Union army, but racism still lived on and the Klan re-surged in the Great Depression.

I think the once the economic crisis becomes worse, Ron Paul will not be scoffed at anymore as not realistically being able to win.

 

[Marx]

PRESIDENT KARZAI'S BROTHER HAS BEEN ASSASSINATED
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/07/12/afghanistan.karzai.brother/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Wow...

 

[hippie_hunter]

As deplorable as it is, this is kind of a good thing.

 

[Marx]

According to the AP, a suicide bomber struck the memorial service for President Karzai's brother. Fifteen people are reported wounded and four were killed.

 

[DoomsdayApex]

I personally think that the day after Bin Laden died, Obama should have announced that our mission in the Middle East is accomplished, special forces and intelligence would continue operations to hunt Al-Queda but the ground mission is over and he should have begun to pull out on that day. It would've been a bold move, but also brilliant.

Nothing was accomplished, and sadly, nothing ever will.

We've (by 'we' -- I mean our government) had a hand in creating this monster all in the name of natural resources. All we've done is make the beast angrier, and a create a new generation of terrorists.

Our government won't be leaving Afghanistan any time soon. They've just discovered a gigantic load of resources (sitting unplucked underneath the surface). Trust me, the US doesn't want China to get them.

 

[Texas Zombie]

Deregulation is another factor in the economy but I think the extra spending on the wars gave more opportunity to take advantage of the system. Al-Qaeda can be destroyed as an organization, but the does not effect radical Islamic groups of all backgrounds. The KKK was destroyed in the U.S. as an organization for a few decades after the American Civil War by the Union army, but racism still lived on and the Klan re-surged in the Great Depression.

I think the once the economic crisis becomes worse, Ron Paul will not be scoffed at anymore as not realistically being able to win.

The klan was never destroyed, just weakened, when the north had a military presence in the south post victory, when they left, the KKK slowly began gaining numbers again, but when the great depression occurred racism became very prominent and it strengthened there numbers.


If we do not deliver a great enough blow to al Qaeda, they will grow at astounding rate.

 

[Marx]

According to the AP, Kandahar Mayor Ghulam Haider Hamidi has been assassinated by a suicide bomber.

 

[craigdbfan]

Seal Team Six killed in Afghanistan

"A military helicopter crashed in eastern Afghanistan, killing 31 U.S. special operation troops and seven Afghan commandos, the country's president said Saturday. An American official said it was apparently shot down, in the deadliest single incident for American forces in the decade-long war."

 

[Midnyte_Sun]

31 US Soldiers, 7 Afghans Die after Helicopter Crash

AP has learned that more than 20 Navy SEALs from the unit that killed Osama bin Laden (SEAL Team 6) were among those lost in a helicopter crash in Afghanistan.

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-sources-crash-kills-members-seal-team-6-155743903.html

 

[StrainedEyes]

Here come the conspiracy theorists.

 

[Spidermatrix53]

Here come the conspiracy theorists.

Oh, son of a *****.

 

[Paradoxium]

There is about 300 members in Team 6