Discussion: LGBTQ+ Rights XVI - Part 6

[MaceB]

If someone says something racist without purposefully doing so, it's still a bad thing to do and racist. You don't just ignore it and hope it goes away, you point that **** out. No one made her take a role or give this interview, and no one made her apparently do no research into it at all because even the most cursory glance at trans people talking about their lives would show her that she's in the wrong here. Whether she intended to or not, she regurgitated rhetoric used against trans people and misgendered them. If you can't call that kind of thing out even when done by people who maybe weren't actively trying to be awful, then it allows it to just keep going.

A term or a phrase being racist is specifically tied to intent though. If a black person uses the N-word... it's not racist. If I were to accidentally refer to an Asian American as a Chinese American.. it's not racist. It's a mistake. There's nothing in that mistake that says I think less of a certain group of people.

I can see why she would want the role. In fact, more dramatic representations of the transgender community would help, not hurt... regardless of who plays them.

And I'm not convinced that she misgendered anyone. If I were talking about my son at the age of 6... who eventually transitioned into a woman at 16... and I said, "oh he was such a good boy," is that misgendering someone? I took Berry's quote to mean, "what made this woman need to transition into a man." I don't see anything wrong with that kind of statement.

Correcting someone's language or pointing it out is one thing. But suggesting that she's an idiot or a closet transphobe or that she can't play the role is another. It's yet another example... in a long list of examples... of liberals attacking their own. Of liberals making the perfect the enemy of the good. Again, I think this kind of 'burn them at the stake' mentality actually hurts trans representation, because it stops people from being able to comfortably talk about these issues. General rule of thumb - try to avoid being more outraged at something than the actual victimized community. Was the trans community outraged at this quote? It seems like a lot of social warriors trying to make someone out to be the enemy, so they can signal their own virtue... personally.

That being said, I'm sure she wishes she phrased it differently, and given another chance, I imagine she would.

 

[Schlosser85]

I am “so very very tired”, to appropriate the headline’s phrase, of the SJW Twitter crowd whom no one put in charge of anything playing the lords and arbiters of every word anyone says.

If actors aren’t allowed to play things they are not in reality, it defeats the whole purpose of acting.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

A term or a phrase being racist is specifically tied to intent though. If a black person uses the N-word... it's not racist. If I were to accidentally refer to an Asian American as a Chinese American.. it's not racist. It's a mistake. There's nothing in that mistake that says I think less of a certain group of people.

I can see why she would want the role. In fact, more dramatic representations of the transgender community would help, not hurt... regardless of who plays them.

And I'm not convinced that she misgendered anyone. If I were talking about my son at the age of 6... who eventually transitioned into a woman at 16... and I said, "oh he was such a good boy," is that misgendering someone? I took Berry's quote to mean, "what made this woman need to transition into a man." I don't see anything wrong with that kind of statement.

Correcting someone's language or pointing it out is one thing. But suggesting that she's an idiot or a closet transphobe or that she can't play the role is another. It's yet another example... in a long list of examples... of liberals attacking their own. Of liberals making the perfect the enemy of the good. Again, I think this kind of 'burn them at the stake' mentality actually hurts trans representation, because it stops people from being able to comfortably talk about these issues. General rule of thumb - try to avoid being more outraged at something than the actual victimized community. Was the trans community outraged at this quote? It seems like a lot of social warriors trying to make someone out to be the enemy, so they can signal their own virtue... personally.

That being said, I'm sure she wishes she phrased it differently, and given another chance, I imagine she would.

That would depend on the actual transgender person, not the mother of the trangender person. But as Berry herself is not transgender, she doesn't get a say. The same way white people don't get a say in the use of the N word.

I personally worry saying stupid crap when it comes to the trans community. But at the same time I know if I did, I would try to make amends. So much of complaining about cancel culture is people not wanting to apologize for ****ing up and the arrogance of not wanting to apologize turns into being a proper prick on a subject. Plenty of transgender folk has said Berry misgendered. The answer to that? Apologize for it.

One of the issues I have with the way this has played out is that a lot like Johansson, Berry in her "heartfelt apology" kind of shows she didn't even read the criticism. That goes to a larger issue. She wanted to play a trans character, and didn't seem to do a bit of research before speaking on it. How hard is that?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

JK Rowling and other assorted rich hypocrites side with Donald Trump's July 4th hate fest speech, calls for end to cancel 'culture' AKA people being held responsible for their words and actions (while Rowling's busy canceling trans folks and lobbying governments to do so):

Mediaite - J.K. Rowling, Bari Weiss and Noam Chomsky Among Dozens to Sign Open Letter Calling for End to Cancel Culture



There can be no debate with racists, sexists, homophobes, transphobes, etc.. There is nothing to debate.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I am “so very very tired”, to appropriate the headline’s phrase, of the SJW Twitter crowd whom no one put in charge of anything playing the lords and arbiters of every word anyone says.

If actors aren’t allowed to play things they are not in reality, it defeats the whole purpose of acting.

This is true. But I do thing it is fair to say there exceptions. Like we don't want another Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's situation. I get that acting is a just a job, and there is a long history of taking on the role of the marginalized to boost an actor's profile. Many of my favorite actors have done it. If Berry wanted to do it, she could do it. But it being a job does not remove the potential social consequences involved. Not simply for Berry, but members of that community. And thus if people don't want her to do it, I think it is fair to make that known. Make it known, not harass her. Those are two very different things, that apparently too many damn people on the internet don't understand. Well some don't understand it. I am sure there are those who don't care about trans rights one bit, hell hate trans people, who saw a black woman being yelled at and couldn't wait to "get involved".

 

[MaceB]

It is so strange that this is the hill that JK Rowling wants to die on. See.... I feel like this one is different. Here's a powerful, smart, influential woman... not saying something by accident... not having one bad comment... but actively advocating that transgender rights take away her rights as a woman. That IS something to be upset about, in my opinion.

Like... what?

Although I too am against cancel culture.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

JK Rowling and other assorted rich hypocrites side with Donald Trump's July 4th hate fest speech, calls for end to cancel 'culture' AKA people being held responsible for their words and actions (while Rowling's busy canceling trans folks and lobbying governments to do so):

Mediaite- J.K. Rowling, Bari Weiss Sign Letter Calling for Open Debate



There can be no debate with racists, sexists, homophobes, transphobes, etc.. There is nothing to debate.

I saw this. I love when jackasses call for open debate, by which they wanted to spout hate speech without push back. Like J Karen Rowling, and her crying about being called a TERF. Which is ironic while calling for an open debate.

 

[Schlosser85]

JK Rowling and other assorted rich hypocrites side with Donald Trump's July 4th hate fest speech, calls for end to cancel 'culture' AKA people being held responsible for their words and actions (while Rowling's busy canceling trans folks and lobbying governments to do so):

Mediaite - J.K. Rowling, Bari Weiss and Noam Chomsky Among Dozens to Sign Open Letter Calling for End to Cancel Culture



There can be no debate with racists, sexists, homophobes, transphobes, etc.. There is nothing to debate.

Can we cancel both cancel culture and legitimate *******s?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It is so strange that this is the hill that JK Rowling wants to die on. See.... I feel like this one is different. Here's a powerful, smart, influential woman... not saying something by accident... not having one bad comment... but actively advocating that transgender rights take away her rights as a woman. That IS something to be upset about, in my opinion.

Like... what?

Although I too am against cancel culture.

Rowling is the kind of rich where it doesn't really matter what she does. More importantly, she controls something worth way more then her personal worth. That said, she shows all the hallmarks of being radicalized, and maybe it is just because she got bored and had too much time to read BS on the internet. But whatever it is, she fell down that hole. She is a rich cis white woman playing gatekeeper to arguably the most marginalized group on the planet, and in the process seems to enjoy the victimhood involved with that stance. It honestly reads like a Trump fan, who is in it for the personal satisfaction she gets to sticking it to a different group.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Can we cancel both cancel culture and legitimate *******s?

The dirty secret about cancel culture is it doesn't actually work on the people that make it kind of a necessary thing. We have now had over a solid month of Rowling being the worst. No real issues for her.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

People against accountability:
"Yeah all them pro-wrestling sex predators shouldn't be canceled, we should have an 'open debate' where they are left alone and employed. Bring back Joey Ryan."
"Stop cancelling the Confederate flag and our statuuueesss! Muh heritage, muh culture!"
"The Nazis brought a lot to the table to be debated. Don't cancel them, debate them."
"Mel Gibson should have way more money from movie roles! Leave Mel alone! What he said is debatable - let's have a debate about Jewish people. Should they be allowed to exist or not?"
"Trans people are just confused and bathroom sex predators and the government needs to do something about it!"
"Put Graham Linehan back on Twitter for debate!"
"Stop making me and my friends disappear from Twitter and Facebook by enforcing their site's ToS against us."
"The Boogaloo and Proud Boys bring a lot to the debate table. Stop stifling them on social media by banning them!"
"Stop boycotting Facebook, advertisers! It's not fair to debate."
"I'm not wearing a mask during the pandemic. Because muh freedumb and I am debating the virus!"
"Why are people mad? Debate me, bro! You're stifling debate!"

**** these people.

All speech and actions are not of equal value.
All speech and actions are not worth listening to or rewarding.

Rowling hasn't even been held to account yet under the law or by private entity and monetarily. But she should be.

 

[MaceB]

People against accountability:
"Yeah all them wrestling sex predators shouldn't be canceled, we should have an 'open debate' where they are left alone and employed."
"Stop cancelling the Confederate flag and our statutuueesss! Muh heritage, muh culture!"
"The Nazis brought a lot to the table to be debated."
"Mel Gibson should have way more money from movie roles! Leave Mel alone! What he said is debatable - let's have a debate about Jewish people. Should they be allowed to exist or not?"
"Trans people are just confused and bathroom sex predators and the government needs to do something about it!"
"Why are people mad? Debate me, bro! You're stifling debate!"

**** these people.

All speech and actions are not of equal value.

Rowling hasn't even been held to account yet under the law or by private entity and monetarily. But she should be.

What are you suggesting we do? I'm not going to buy her books. I don't go to Singer's movies either. etc. etc. And when the topics of those people come up, I tell people that I vote with my pocket book and people like Limbaugh or Hannity don't deserve my business.

But I'm not going to go out of my way to call politicians to demand they be taken down. I'm not going to organize a strike against Rowling online. Why is it that I'm the bad person, because I don't believe in silencing people? Rowling has every right to say what she wants.

I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death your right to say it. And yet... for that sentiment... I'm the bad one... I'm the one who's complicit and a secret racist, sexist, whatever...

And I'm sorry, it's out of control. If there was a political faction that was exterminating millions of people, then.... yeah... I'm gonna do what I can to stop it. But if Halle Berry says "it" instead of "she,"... I'm just gonna take stock of that and decide whether I want to see her act in the future or not. It'll probably depend on the project on a case by case basis.

I don't see the problem with that.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

 

[Schlosser85]

And yet... for that sentiment... I'm the bad one... I'm the one who's complicit and a secret racist, sexist, whatever...

Welcome to the club, for I have too I have felt some none too veiled passive aggressive judgment round these parts, usually from people not in the best position to be giving it, for "only caring about social issues that pertain to me", or whatever.

But it is what it is.

 

[Schlosser85]

Also Halle Berry did not refer to a person as an "it", she said "it" in reference to the story.

 

[InCali]

What are you suggesting we do? I'm not going to buy her books. I don't go to Singer's movies either. etc. etc. And when the topics of those people come up, I tell people that I vote with my pocket book and people like Limbaugh or Hannity don't deserve my business.

But I'm not going to go out of my way to call politicians to demand they be taken down. I'm not going to organize an online strike against Rowling online. Why is it that I'm the bad person, because I don't believe in silencing people? Rowling has every right to say what she wants.

I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death your right to say it. And yet... for that sentiment... I'm the bad one... I'm the one who's complicit and a secret racist, sexist, whatever...

And I'm sorry, it's out of control. If there was a political faction that was exterminating millions of people, then.... yeah... I'm gonna do what I can to stop it. But if Halle Berry says "it" instead of "she,"... I'm just gonna take stock of that and decide whether I want to see her act in the future or not. It'll probably depend on the project on a case by case basis.

I don't see the problem with that.

I remember when William Shockley came to speak at UC Santa Cruz. There was a big movement to not allow him on campus to speak. If you don't know about him he was instrumental in the development of semi conductors and, later, preached that black people were inherently inferior to white people and that the continued propagation of black people could bring about the downfall of civilization......so, yeah, this guy was a real piece of work.

I argued that we should let him speak and make the @$$#0le out of himself that he was. He spoke and just got obliterated with science from some very well informed people. It didn't change his attitude, but he got completely humiliated in the eyes of everyone in the audience.

I was glad he showed up.

 

[MaceB]

I remember when William Shockley came to speak at UC Santa Cruz. There was a big movement to not allow him on campus to speak. If you don't know about him he was instrumental in the development of semi conductors and, later, preached that black people were inherently inferior to white people and that the continued propagation of black people could bring about the downfall of civilization......so, yeah, this guy was a real piece of work.

I argued that we should let him speak and make the @$$#0le out of himself that he was. He spoke and just got obliterated with science from some very well informed people. It didn't change his attitude, but he got completely humiliated in the eyes of everyone in the audience.

I was glad he showed up.

Yeah, I mean... I want the bigots right where I can see them. Let them march so I can point them out to my son and go, "see.... this is what stupid people look like." That's America for you. Gotta take the sweet along with the bitter.

 

[InCali]

That's not to say I don't think there's a line when it comes to what type of speech is allowed. Advocating for the the elimination of freedoms for group of people based on race or gender (or elimination of a group of people), isn't acceptable. Hate speech....just no. It's hard to tell exactly where you draw that line, but I think a line is there.

 

[Snow Queen]

 

[Schlosser85]

I'm pretty sure that's a pretty flimsy threat.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Welcome to the club, for I have too I have felt some none too veiled passive aggressive judgment round these parts, usually from people not in the best position to be giving it, for "only caring about social issues that pertain to me", or whatever.

But it is what it is.

How dare you, I am not passive aggressive! I am aggressive aggressive!

Okay bad joke aside, I hope I haven't made you or MaceB feel that way. I think in this discussion while I may not agree on parts of the argument, I feel like you and MaceB have been respective of others and having an actual conversation, along with in general being good folk.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm pretty sure that's a pretty flimsy threat.

It definitely is, but the intent is felt and I do think it goes directly against her, "let's all have a conversation" bit. Because part of these conversations are pointing at the bigots, calling them what they are and showing that with the receipts. Receipts Rowling seems to be handing out like this is a going out of business sale.

 

[Schlosser85]

How dare you, I am not passive aggressive! I am aggressive aggressive!

Okay bad joke aside, I hope I haven't made you or MaceB feel that way. I think in this discussion while I may not agree on parts of the argument, I feel like you and MaceB have been respective of others and having an actual conversation, along with in general being good folk.

Honestly I was feeling a bit snarky and making a passive aggressive comment myself there. I appreciate you feel that way, and I wasn’t referring to you at all. I appreciate our conversation both here and in private.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Honestly I was feeling a bit snarky and making a passive aggressive comment myself there. I appreciate you feel that way, and I wasn’t referring to you at all. I appreciate our conversation both here and in private.

I just wanted to show I appreciate and value you and MaceB. I know this place can get heated, and beyond that intent of post can get lost by the very nature of writing on a message board. And this topic isn't an easy one to enter. But imo everyone here brings something valuable to the discussion. I have read other discussion boards and honestly this is the only place I feel I can have a conversation and you are both a big part of that. So thank you both.

 

[MaceB]

I just wanted to show I appreciate and value you and MaceB. I know this place can get heated, and beyond that intent of post can get lost by the very nature of writing on a message board. And this topic isn't an easy one to enter. But imo everyone here brings something valuable to the discussion. I have read other discussion boards and honestly this is the only place I feel I can have a conversation and you are both a big part of that. So thank you both.

thanks man. That’s really cool of you. I feel the same!