Discussion: Illegal Immigration, Immigration Reform, and Other Citizenship Issues II

[Holiday]

You don't have to outright say what you are just as you made the implication anyone against a border wall is for "open borders" and that weak immigration laws are good. The reality is the existing laws are terrible and already designed to be a burden on anyone who wants to legally immigrate. What you want, and what you deny, is to make all immigration illegal. Unless of course they come from acceptable European countries.

If the immigration laws were simpler and easier to go through we would not have an (inflated) illegal border crossing problem. On top of which most illegal immigrants come legally into the country on visas then stay when they expire. They do not come over the border.

I've never stated that or anything close to it.

For the second part of your post I can mostly agree with. Making it easier for a person to come here legally would be a deterrent from them resorting to attempt crossing the border (sometimes with their children which is horrible). If we could do that well enough then we would know people who still choose the illegal route likely have something to hide.

Edit: Also, I don't see how we can honestly know how many people cross over the border every year compared to those that overstay a work visa.

 

[Teelie]

That's simple. The U.S./Mexico border is heavily monitored and watched. It isn't hard to surveil the border though putting a wall on it won't help either as people will just dig a tunnel underneath it, giving the false sense that is accomplishing something. Dozens if not hundreds of tunnels already exist too.

 

[Herofan]

If the immigration laws were simpler and easier to go through we would not have an (inflated) illegal border crossing problem.

A million immigrants legally come to permanently live here every year, more do want to come but it's not as if the legal system prevents all but a small handful of people from legally immigrating and forces a much larger amount of people to illegally immigrate.

 

[AResistor]

If the immigration laws were simpler and easier to go through we would not have an (inflated) illegal border crossing problem.

This. 110% this.

It’s also clear why reich wingers love to demonize them - they’re minorities.

They love villainizing everyone who isn’t a white/straight/Christian. While ironically, these extremists are the true threat to the country - natural born citizens commit more crimes than immigrants and most domestic terrorism is caused by the far right (statistics).

Get these xenophobes talking about immigration for long enough and often they eventually reveal they’re terrified of other world cultures and multiculturalism.

 

[Teelie]

ICE drops off hundreds more migrants in Texas and New Mexico

At least they got warned this time.

Ruben Garcia from Annunciation House in El Paso told CBS News that 522 migrants were released Wednesday by U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement at sites in El Paso and Las Cruces, New Mexico. That raises the total number of people released this week to more than 1,000, after 186 people were released on Christmas Day and 400 were released in the two days before Christmas.

Another 500 could be released on Thursday. "It should be organized and orderly as it was today," Garcia said.

Local nonprofit groups told the CBS affiliate KBDC the key difference from earlier in the week was that they were notified in advance of the mass release by ICE — something the groups and U.S. Rep. Beto O'Rourke, who represents El Paso, said didn't happen previously.

As a result, the nonprofits were more prepared for the large influx.

Day three of mass releases by ICE in #ElPaso. On this #Christmas day these three boys are enjoying some sweets. Their parents gave us permission to take their pictures. So far about 160 have been brought here. Waiting on another 40. pic.twitter.com/fAU1Lwo74n

— Claudia Tristán (@ClaudiaKFOX_CBS) December 25, 2018
"They're coming from immigration cells so they're coming hungry, they're coming thirsty, most haven't bathed in a long time. The situation is really difficult for them," said Dylan Corbett, executive director of the Hope Border Institute.

ICE said in a statement earlier this week the mass releases were designed to ensure families weren't held longer than it's allowed to detain them, and blamed "decades of inaction by Congress" that resulted in the government being "severely constrained in its ability to detain and promptly remove families with no legal basis to remain in the U.S."

Many thanks to volunteers & donors who ensure that we take care of families being released by ICE in El Paso. 200 to be released today. Over 500 tomorrow. Please make a donation that will go to food and beds here: Financial Donations pic.twitter.com/IPpFXCtiR8

— Beto O'Rourke (@BetoORourke) December 25, 2018
The immigrants released Tuesday by ICE were dropped off at a downtown El Paso bus station. Then, they were led by volunteers to a makeshift headquarters at Rock House Cafe and Gallery, a block away.

"This is what it is to give, this is what it is to receive people into your home and cherish time with other people," said Michael Patino, owner of the facility.

"We made something for (the migrants) for breakfast. We went to buy some bread and my sister went to her closet to look for things that we could give away. We are here to give what we have," Michelle Sanchez said.

Sanchez, an immigrant herself, told KDBC it was her duty to give back, saying, "If you can do something for the people, if you can give something for the people just do it. That's what we do and that's what we're trying to do here," Sanchez said.

One of the migrants said, "It's unreal, like a dream. They gave us clothes, food, everything. I really didn't expect this. Thank you so much."

CBS News

 

[Sithborg]

After the second child death, Nielson is going to make a show of caring about what is going on.

 

[Teelie]

A show is probably the extent of it. If there were a concerted effort to prevent these deaths it would have been done before now.

 

[Sithborg]

I mean, she was already pretty callous about the first girl's death. I think a second death with an incoming Dem House has made her realize she is in trouble.

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

King Praises ICE's 'Excellent Record' Since 'Only 2 Children' Died Recently

 

[Schlosser85]

King Praises ICE's 'Excellent Record' Since 'Only 2 Children' Died Recently

That’s the bar we’re setting?

 

[Sithborg]

Well, the "only brown children" is assumed when you are talking about King.

 

[Holiday]

Sanctuary City laws come into play again.

Suspect in fatal shooting of California officer caught after manhunt

 

[AResistor]

Sanctuary City laws come into play again.

Right-wing hypocrisy is evident again.

Right-Wingers commit the most domestic terrorist attacks and natural born citizens (non-immigrants) commit the most crimes (and population comparison isn't the reason why it's like that).

YET, I never see you screaming and going on about that.... sounds about white.

 

[AResistor]

 

[Teelie]

Republicans also stop caring once a baby is no longer in the womb or they wouldn't be so quick to try killing family services, welfare or other safety nets for families.

 

[Schlosser85]

Which kind of gives the lie to being "pro-life". I mean you have users who post memes of Kavanaugh wearing the Infinity Gauntlet and wiping out Planned Parenthood, which provides all kinds of health services besides abortion for low income mothers that they wouldn't otherwise be able to afford.

Kind of revealing that it's not really about saving babies when they don't want their mothers to have affordable healthcare.

 

[Sithborg]

I am failing to see any reason to suspect this guy was about to do this. A misdeamenor DUI isn't exactly a violent offence, and really, no reason to hold him for ICE. You can always play "what if".

And in other news, looks like we are getting reports of child abuse in one detention center for migrant children.

Videos showing shelter staffers pushing, shoving migrant children under review for possible criminal charges - CNN

Given the administration pushing to relax and ignore various licensing requirements, and well, the general tone they seem to be encouraging in the various agencies, I am willing to bet this is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Holiday]

Right-wing hypocrisy is evident again.

Right-Wingers commit the most domestic terrorist attacks and natural born citizens (non-immigrants) commit the most crimes (and population comparison isn't the reason why it's like that).

YET, I never see you screaming and going on about that.... sounds about white.

There's no hypocrisy on my part, but a lack of logic from you and a weak attempt to label me a racist because you can't debate the argument that Cali's sanctuary city law is flawed. Its also hilarious that you consider the posts I've made on this subject to be "screaming and going on and on".

The only immigrant in this story is the officer Ronil Singh who is a legal immigrant from Fiji. The shooter was an illegal. The government doesn't track statistics on felonies committed by illegals.

 

[Sithborg]

And yet no comment on child abuse of child migrants. Yes, your focus is flawed.

And you do realize, that felonies committed by those who aren't here legally are still prosecuted, right? Not that they are deported without punishment. I mean, you are operating under the idea that a DUI is an indicator that he will be a violent felon.

 

[writer0327]

The only immigrant in this story is the officer Ronil Singh who is a legal immigrant from Fiji. The shooter was an illegal. The government doesn't track statistics on felonies committed by illegals.

This is sad that this man lost his life, a good family man who was a police officer and dedicated his life to serving his community. I get that there are actual American citizens also involved in illegal activities where a police officer loses his life, but I don't feel that caring about one illegal matter means you have automatically turned a blind eye to all other crime. Illegal immigration is wrong. So is domestic terrorism. Can't we be against both? Why is this debated? Serious question, I want to know.

 

[Sithborg]

The question comes down on how to handle it. Treating people who cross the border as violent criminals that need to be locked up is not what most want to happen.

 

[AResistor]

There's no hypocrisy on my part, but a lack of logic from you and a weak attempt to label me a racist because you can't debate the argument that Cali's sanctuary city law is flawed. Its also hilarious that you consider the posts I've made on this subject to be "screaming and going on and on".

The only immigrant in this story is the officer Ronil Singh who is a legal immigrant from Fiji. The shooter was an illegal. The government doesn't track statistics on felonies committed by illegals.

The hypocrisy shows for all to see in the groups you keep going after versus the ones you don’t.

As per "debate," those screaming to stop sanctuary cities while also claiming “law and order” have no ground to stand on. The POLICE have repeatedly issued why it’s important - I’d say they know what’s better for “law and order” over a host of xenophobes.

Sanctuary Cities lead to safer communities. Do some undocumented immigrants commit crimes? Yes. Do most? No. However, most non-immigrants, on the other hand, DO.

Why Sanctuary Cities Are Safer

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...s-are-hotbeds-of-crime-data-say-the-opposite/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-crime-they-encourage-people-to-report-crime/

What Trump doesn't tell you about sanctuary cities

US police chiefs are fighting the crackdown on "sanctuary cities"

Police chiefs across the country support sanctuary cities because they keep crime down

Personally, I want to see the POLICE capable of full doing their jobs. I can see why that would rub some the wrong way though and why many (not all) of those same people would want some crimes to go unreported.

As per less crime. Statistically violent crime appears to DECREASE when undocumented immigrants are living there.

Mollie Tibbetts' death is being used to push debunked ideas about illegal immigration and violent crime

‘Two charts demolish the notion that immigrants here illegally commit more crime‘
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-immigrants-here-illegally-commit-more-crime/

FACT CHECK: Trump, Illegal Immigration And Crime

I know you and others like you will scream “fake news” though. This is for everyone else.

 

[AResistor]

This is sad that this man lost his life, a good family man who was a police officer and dedicated his life to serving his community. I get that there are actual American citizens also involved in illegal activities where a police officer loses his life, but I don't feel that caring about one illegal matter means you have automatically turned a blind eye to all other crime. Illegal immigration is wrong. So is domestic terrorism. Can't we be against both? Why is this debated? Serious question, I want to know.

Most undocumented immigrants cross the border to flee from dangerous situations - not the “they’re gang affiliated” etc. narrative the right like to sickeningly spew.

Most don’t commit non-victimless crime. You do know the difference between crimes that have a victim and those that don’t right and why they need to be handled differently? One (terrorists) are people intending to cause harm whereas the other is often a mother and son fleeing or trying to reunite without harming anyone.

It’s not the people who are at fault - it’s the system which makes people feel like crossing the border undocumented is the only option they have.

Speed up and fix the system, fix undocumented immigration. Many though don’t want to do that and want to stick by selling demonizing stereotypes instead. I wonder why.

———————

Btw, I’m sure to get mobbed by all sides for saying this - the United States is INHERENTLY xenophobic. The dream is the melting pot. The reality for many of us is something entirely different and something ugly that was always there that Trump started to bring out with his birtherism rants. For those who doubt this, look into the “natural born citizen” clause and how xenophobic that actually is.

 

[AResistor]

Since these are my people - I have the same exact outlook on the US government in concerns to immigration that Superman does:



There needs to be sane, non-xenophobic, people in control of this whole operation.

Sadly, that is so far from the case that it's the extreme polar opposite and it's been that way for many years, predating Trump.

Frankly, I'm sick of seeing my people put behind cages, especially kids, and treated like common thieves because Americans lack basic empathy.

 

[writer0327]

Most undocumented immigrants cross the border to flee from dangerous situations - not the “they’re gang affiliated” etc. narrative the right like to sickeningly spew.

Most don’t commit non-victimless crime. You do know the difference between crimes that have a victim and those that don’t right and why they need to be handled differently? One (terrorists) are people intending to cause harm whereas the other is often a mother and son fleeing or trying to reunite without harming anyone.

It’s not the people who are at fault - it’s the system which makes people feel like crossing the border undocumented is the only option they have.

Speed up and fix the system, fix undocumented immigration. Many though don’t want to do that and want to stick by selling demonizing stereotypes instead. I wonder why.

———————

Btw, I’m sure to get mobbed by all sides for saying this - the United States is INHERENTLY xenophobic. The dream is the melting pot. The reality for many of us is something entirely different and something ugly that was always there that Trump started to bring out with his birtherism rants. For those who doubt this, look into the “natural born citizen” clause and how xenophobic that actually is.

I think its a tough situation, but unless we have complete open borders, there's no easy fix to immigration laws. Just seeing how long a day at the DMV takes, we should all realize that our government moves slow as molasses (one of the reasons why I never understand why people want more government interference in our daily lives, but that's another topic for another day) and why a speedy immigration system is a dream.

Also I agree that the whole violence rhetoric is just a red herring used by anti-immigration pundits, but at the same time, it shouldn't change our stance for what is illegal. If you are here illegally, the laws must still apply regardless. I wish more could be done so people didn't have to flee violence in their own countries. To me, that is the real problem.