Discussion: LGBTQ+ Rights XVI - Part 6

[samsnee]

Nevada became the first state in the nation to protect same sex marriage in its state constitution.

Hey Vegas will marry ya, they don’t care.

 

[InCali]

Hey Vegas will marry ya, they don’t care.

LOL, they don't want to cut into business. Whatever happens in Vegas .....is cool with me.

 

[Silvermoth]

Um, what the hell happened to us?



thank god Biden looks like he’s going to win

 

[InCali]

Um, what the hell happened to us?



thank god Biden looks like he’s going to win

There is no demographic in the world that is immune to stupidity or several other negative traits. It just a fact.

 

[Schlosser85]

There is no demographic in the world that is immune to stupidity or several other negative traits. It just a fact.

I rejected a guy who is openly gay and thinks Trump is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I thought there was a sliver of hope for him when he was disappointed when Trump picked Pence for his running mate....then it turned out he was disappointed because he was hoping for Rick Santorum

 

[InCali]

I rejected a guy who is openly gay and thinks Trump is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I thought there was a sliver of hope for him when he was disappointed when Trump picked Pence for his running mate....then it turned out he was disappointed because he was hoping for Rick Santorum

I'm proud of you. As for that dude, I don't, don't get it...WHY??? I'd genuinely like to hear the explanation.

 

[Silvermoth]

There is no demographic in the world that is immune to stupidity or several other negative traits. It just a fact.

one in two though, that’s not exactly a minority. In an alternate world, we as a demographic might have even played a starring role in trump and pence’s re-election which would have been a disaster for us all.

I wonder where they’re getting their news from? All the major queer media I know of endorsed Biden and covered the horror of the trump years accurately. So clearly they’re following something else. They couldn’t be watching Fox News surely?

if we’re not careful, we might end up like white women, as the new demographic that votes against their own interests and might even put someone as bad or worse than trump into power

 

[Lily Adler]

I rejected a guy who is openly gay and thinks Trump is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I thought there was a sliver of hope for him when he was disappointed when Trump picked Pence for his running mate....then it turned out he was disappointed because he was hoping for Rick Santorum

Sounds like regrettable one night stand material to me.

 

[Schlosser85]

Sounds like regrettable one night stand material to me.

I strongly considered it. #NotProud

 

[Lily Adler]

I strongly considered it. #NotProud

There's some hot ones. I almost did with a guy who worked as an AG teacher. Trumper to the max but muscles as big as small barrel.

 

[Schlosser85]

There's some hot ones. I almost did with a guy who worked as an AG teacher. Trumper to the max but muscles as big as small barrel.

Sometimes you just gotta do what you gotta do.

 

[Herofan]

Um, what the hell happened to us?

Some thought Trump and Pence weren't as terrifying as expected. The Supreme Court banning employment discrimination (with Trump's appointees splitting their impact) was a pretty positive step.

 

[Lily Adler]

The GOP better get with the ****ing program and start to support the LGBT like Mitt acknowledged in 2012.

 

[Pink Ranger]

if we’re not careful, we might end up like white women, as the new demographic that votes against their own interests and might even put someone as bad or worse than trump into power

Between our elaborate wedding plans and ability to throw fits in public, we already are white women.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Um...sport? World Rugby, the governing body of the sport, literally did a year long study incorporating just about every area of sports science into the differences between male and female athletes because of the inherent dangers involved with rugby. They found even after years of treatment transwomen had a 25-30% strength advantage over women. Women are also more prone to ACL injuries due to the differences in their body structure and centre of gravity. If you want proof of dangers.....well, there's science there to back it up. So, if you believe the scientists for climate change, which I'm willing to bet you are, you should be comfortable that an international sporting body that went to such extensive length to find its conclusion that transwoman are not allowed to play elite level womens rugby anymore. It's for women's safety, which is exactly what JK has been discussing. So again, painting Rowling as some bigot is ignoring what she is actually saying for issues like this. Women do need their spaces, transwomen, no matter how much many wish it were the case, are not the same and never will be.

World Rugby Bars Transgender Women, Baffling Players

11 transgender athletes tested. 11, and none who have competed at the top level of the sport. I have no idea who they tested when it comes to cisgender athletes, but I would simply point out that physical advantages in sport should never be a consideration in professional sports. Further the implication that somehow transwomen being allowed to compete will lead to a mass flood of top level transgender athletes in women sports is such obvious scare mongering and demeans the very idea of being transgender and the process of transition.

That last line is a painful one to read. You are on this board purposely misrepresenting gender and sex, while at the same time advocating for the taking of rights from human beings, for exactly zero valid reasons. In the process you have purposely demeaned other human beings, by attempting to invalidate their identity. That you went to sports because you think that is somehow a safer topic then bathrooms, does not change the intent.

You argued that people are mispresenting Rowling. These are her words:

Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore?

Rowling, a domestic violence survivor, said she was worried that “the new trans activism” was eroding women and girls’ rights to single-sex spaces by “offering cover to predators”.

“I believe my government is playing fast and loose with womens and girls’ safety,” she wrote.

“When you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman ... then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside.”

That is bigotry, and that is wrong in every sense of the word. That is so obviously harmful to women, while she argues to protect women is not only ironic, but dangerous. Incredibly, dangerous. Because, she has a voice that carries do to her privilege.

 

[Lily Adler]

 

[DarthSkywalker]

 

[Lily Adler]

 

[jmc]

World Rugby Bars Transgender Women, Baffling Players

11 transgender athletes tested. 11, and none who have competed at the top level of the sport. I have no idea who they tested when it comes to cisgender athletes, but I would simply point out that physical advantages in sport should never be a consideration in professional sports. Further the implication that somehow transwomen being allowed to compete will lead to a mass flood of top level transgender athletes in women sports is such obvious scare mongering and demeans the very idea of being transgender and the process of transition.

That last line is a painful one to read. You are on this board purposely misrepresenting gender and sex, while at the same time advocating for the taking of rights from human beings, for exactly zero valid reasons. In the process you have purposely demeaned other human beings, by attempting to invalidate their identity. That you went to sports because you think that is somehow a safer topic then bathrooms, does not change the intent.

You argued that people are mispresenting Rowling. These are her words:

Explainer: J. K. Rowling and trans women in single-sex spaces: what's the furore?



That is bigotry, and that is wrong in every sense of the word. That is so obviously harmful to women, while she argues to protect women is not only ironic, but dangerous. Incredibly, dangerous. Because, she has a voice that carries do to her privilege.

I'm not advocating taking rights away, in fact solutions can be found to solve the inherent contradictions if people would first stop acting like any objection is the same as wanting people sent to the guillotine or advocating for verbal or physical abuse against transfolk. Only real bigots want that outcome. We need to be honest about what's going on instead of treating things like a religion where we are told to just accept things that are provably false. Religion for the longest time punished people who didn't subscribe to those who didn't follow its way of thinking and unfortunately it's rearing its head again via way of social politics, ironically from people who aren't religious. If we can start from the point of acknowledging what's actually happening, as opposed to being told to conform, then proper solutions to people's rights can be found. It's not transphobic to point out there are inherent differences with transfolk that clash with womens (and men's) rights in this regard, because it's true a conflict that no-one foresaw coming.

The facts are this - there is a situation that no longer fully satisfies everybody rights and it needs to be addressed. So instead of demonising the likes of Rowling, who has many transfolks in agreement with her I might add, and instead of demanding people react a certain way or for sporting organisations to simply throw open the doors, or to force people into thinking something they don't believe, how about we work out some solutions to the problem? That has to first come from people like you to come down from the edge and not assume the worst in people. Because ultimately this is at the heart of the matter. I'm not blind to what you're advocating or even what your objections to Rowling are or even where your intensions lie, but it's also coming from a place of being highly unreasonable and assuming the worst of people. Transfolk aren't weak, I've seen enough trans content creators to know they aren't afraid of Rowlings because they know where she's coming from, even the ones who don't agree with her. The woman who nearly single handedly ruined her own creation by trying to write characters of every ethnicity and sexuality to represent as many people as she can is now secretly out to get the trans community? Please, it's absurd. The vast majority of people who have raised objections have tried to get their point across in as civil and delicate a manner as possible, but it matters not unless people like yourself are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in the first place. Without that benefit of the doubt, the nastiness that ensure will be returned in kind by the other side, and ultimately no-one wins.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's 2020, people:

England FA chief resigns after using racist phrase

During the hearing, Clarke also claimed that "if you go to the IT department at the FA, there's a lot more South Asians than there are Afro Caribbeans" because "they have different career interests." He described homosexuality as a "life choice" and claimed one coach told him girls playing football don't like the ball being kicked at their face.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I'm not advocating taking rights away, in fact solutions can be found to solve the inherent contradictions if people would first stop acting like any objection is the same as wanting people sent to the guillotine or advocating for verbal or physical abuse against transfolk. Only real bigots want that outcome. We need to be honest about what's going on instead of treating things like a religion where we are told to just accept things that are provably false. Religion for the longest time punished people who didn't subscribe to those who didn't follow its way of thinking and unfortunately it's rearing its head again via way of social politics, ironically from people who aren't religious. If we can start from the point of acknowledging what's actually happening, as opposed to being told to conform, then proper solutions to people's rights can be found. It's not transphobic to point out there are inherent differences with transfolk that clash with womens (and men's) rights in this regard, because it's true a conflict that no-one foresaw coming.

Women's rights are transwomen rights. Because transwomen are women. Every time you say otherwise, you are using the bigoted framing used time and again by TERFs, who are in every sense of the word transphobic. You thinking you somehow soften your stance by saying that one is not advocating the guillotine or abuse, does not change that you are ignoring years of research that show the physical and emotional toil this othering you continue to do has on transgender people. Whether they be men, women or non-binary.

You can say that people aren't attempting to kill and abuse these people. But when every single study on the matter shows that the current conditions in which transgender people are forced to live with has lead to a ridiculous high level of violence against transgender people and transgender people committing suicide, what is the tangible difference? Especially as there is not one iota of evidence that treating transgender people as they identify, has any effect on violence against women. You know why? Because those that beat, attack, and assault women in a bathroom, already have laws that tell them not to do it. Guess what? Still happens. Because their intent is not stopped by any law, especially not a bigoted ones that presents zero protection that doesn't already exist. All they do is serve to other a group of vulnerable human beings.

The facts are this - there is a situation that no longer fully satisfies everybody rights and it needs to be addressed. So instead of demonising the likes of Rowling, who has many transfolks in agreement with her I might add, and instead of demanding people react a certain way or for sporting organisations to simply throw open the doors, or to force people into thinking something they don't believe, how about we work out some solutions to the problem? That has to first come from people like you to come down from the edge and not assume the worst in people. Because ultimately this is at the heart of the matter. I'm not blind to what you're advocating or even what your objections to Rowling are or even where your intensions lie, but it's also coming from a place of being highly unreasonable and assuming the worst of people. Transfolk aren't weak, I've seen enough trans content creators to know they aren't afraid of Rowlings because they know where she's coming from, even the ones who don't agree with her. The woman who nearly single handedly ruined her own creation by trying to write characters of every ethnicity and sexuality to represent as many people as she can is now secretly out to get the trans community? Please, it's absurd. The vast majority of people who have raised objections have tried to get their point across in as civil and delicate a manner as possible, but it matters not unless people like yourself are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in the first place. Without that benefit of the doubt, the nastiness that ensure will be returned in kind by the other side, and ultimately no-one wins.

I am going to start this section very specifically, because I want it to be clear what I am say. Being trans is not a choice. Just like no one choose their race, their sexual preference, whether they are born with a disability, or any of a number of things one does not have control over at birth. But time again, the same arguments those you are advocating for right now are using, have been used to act people based on these things they have no control of, for as long as there has been a recorded history. Attempts to "satisfy everybody" always ends up meaning one thing. Those in power attempting to keep the rights from those who have been oppressed. In the process they other people, they demonize, and setup them up as some false threat that the rest of society must be protected from. Separate but equal is bigoted when it came to black people, to gay people, and transgender people. That so many TERFs in Britain are well off cisgender white men and women is not a bug in the system. It's the system working as it always has. Against the most vulnerable.

The obvious allusion between the "big scary man dressed as woman" and the "big scary black man" are not lost on anyone who takes two seconds to consider the obvious framing.

That you pick and choose what parts of JK's argument to post here and that you literally used the "black friend defense" is a blaring Death Star like siren of dishonest intent. You have a long history here. But that you are in here arguing on the behalf women's rights, after you spent the entire She-Ra thread attacking a show for it's depiction of a female lead created by a female showrunner because it did not conform to your idealized take on a female hero, is the height of parody and would be funny, if not for why you are doing it here. As a stick to beat transgender people with. It would be disgusting if not one transgender person posted here. That we we do in fact have transgender members, makes it even worse somehow.

JK Rowling wrote an overtly lily white straight cisgender story. That later, she wanted credit for some kind of "inclusiveness" by saying characters are something she never presented them in the books online for cred, does not change that. That you just wrote that inclusion is somehow the doom of good writing is not surprising. But that you are allowed to write that here is to me.

 

[Snow Queen]

It's not racist to point out there are inherent differences with black people that clash with white peoples' rights, a conflict that no one foresaw coming.

-Some white dude, 1600s/1700s/1800s/1900s/2000s

 

[Schlosser85]

It's not racist to point out there are inherent differences with black people that clash with white peoples' rights, a conflict that no one foresaw coming.

-Some white dude, 1600s/1700s/1800s/1900s/2000s

When I was a little kid, we watched a video in school about slavery, and two moments really stuck out to me. One was a photograph (at least I think it was an actual photograph, as well as I remember) of a black man's back covered in whipping scars.

The other was a quote from some plantation owner or something who said there was no sin in enslaving a race "upon whom God Himself has placed His mark of racial inferiority".

My naive child self was rather shocked and kind of didn't totally even understand it at the time. It just sounded bizarre.

Unfortunately later I learned how commonplace that line of thinking was.

 

[Schlosser85]

I'll admit, I don't totally "get" the whole transgender thing, BUT.....I don't have to.

It's not hard to just respect people and treat them as who and what they identify as and afford them the same basic dignity and respect that is due to all human beings.

And the "bathroom bill" pushed by people like Mike Pence in his Governor days was an exceptionally cruel attack on perhaps the most vulnerable minority in our country, and baseless considering statistically transgender people are vastly more likely to be victims rather than perpetrators of sexual assault or whatever they want people to be scared of happening in restrooms.

Trans people---spoiler warning---go to the restroom to pee, like everyone else.

Now, I am reluctant to wade into the whole question of whether people who were biologically born male have an unfair advantage in weight and strength over biological females in sports like wrestling, because I do think that's a tricky gray area.

 

[Sithborg]

I'm not advocating taking rights away, in fact solutions can be found to solve the inherent contradictions if people would first stop acting like any objection is the same as wanting people sent to the guillotine or advocating for verbal or physical abuse against transfolk. Only real bigots want that outcome. We need to be honest about what's going on instead of treating things like a religion where we are told to just accept things that are provably false. Religion for the longest time punished people who didn't subscribe to those who didn't follow its way of thinking and unfortunately it's rearing its head again via way of social politics, ironically from people who aren't religious. If we can start from the point of acknowledging what's actually happening, as opposed to being told to conform, then proper solutions to people's rights can be found. It's not transphobic to point out there are inherent differences with transfolk that clash with womens (and men's) rights in this regard, because it's true a conflict that no-one foresaw coming.

The facts are this - there is a situation that no longer fully satisfies everybody rights and it needs to be addressed. So instead of demonising the likes of Rowling, who has many transfolks in agreement with her I might add, and instead of demanding people react a certain way or for sporting organisations to simply throw open the doors, or to force people into thinking something they don't believe, how about we work out some solutions to the problem? That has to first come from people like you to come down from the edge and not assume the worst in people. Because ultimately this is at the heart of the matter. I'm not blind to what you're advocating or even what your objections to Rowling are or even where your intensions lie, but it's also coming from a place of being highly unreasonable and assuming the worst of people. Transfolk aren't weak, I've seen enough trans content creators to know they aren't afraid of Rowlings because they know where she's coming from, even the ones who don't agree with her. The woman who nearly single handedly ruined her own creation by trying to write characters of every ethnicity and sexuality to represent as many people as she can is now secretly out to get the trans community? Please, it's absurd. The vast majority of people who have raised objections have tried to get their point across in as civil and delicate a manner as possible, but it matters not unless people like yourself are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt in the first place. Without that benefit of the doubt, the nastiness that ensure will be returned in kind by the other side, and ultimately no-one wins.

She called transwomen predators wanting access to a women's bathroom.

And I would argue that bad attempts at representation are worse than none. It reeks of not willing to hear from the people you are writing about. There is a lot that, with her doubling down on being a TERF, that sort of makes one side eye Beasts 2. I don't think it is hard to see her politics seeping into her work, and not be concerned about it.