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Discussion: Political Revolution

Can the political landscape in this country truly be reshaped?

  • Yes

  • No

  • I don't know


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Marx

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There have been a number of political candidates over the course of time that have claimed that they can bring a "new" version of politics to Washington, D.C.. There have also been several organizations that have called for a non-partisan or bi-partisan take on politics. This goes way beyond buzz words of change. Beyond Democrats, Republicans, Liberals, and Conservatives.

My question to you is this - With the country as polarized as it is...is it truly possible to reshape the political landscape of this country? A reshape that actually works for the better of the nation, as opposed to special interests, partisan politics, and personal agendas. Now more than ever, the political landscape seems primed for a true independent candidate. Would you support an independent candidate? Do you think an independent candidate could win the presidency? Is a political revolution possible? Can Washington DC ever truly be reformed?

Thoughts?
 
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It is possible, but you'll have to read my thread on the FairTax.
 
Yes, it is entirely possible.

However, not by merely a "new" or "fresh" candidate or any number of candidates for that matter. The "special interests" (a title I've never liked, as they aren't just special, they run the whole damn show) are so deeply engrained in every aspect of our federal government that it is infact them, not us that pull the strings of power.

The only way we could ever boot these people out is a revolution of the people. Candidates are easily destroyed, through a number of means. The only reason Ron Paul doesn't have a legitimate chance is because his portrayal in the media. But it is deeper than that. His very ideas seem unacceptable because of years and years of media influence on the social psychology of the masses. Much like prisoner's in Plato's Allegory of the Cave, the vast majority of people in our nation believe what they see on TV to be true, not thinking that Fox News or CNN would have any reason to lie to them or focus on things that are unimportant. They refuse to accept that indeed the media is only a tool of these "special interests" to maintain social control. And even if this weren't the case, Ron Paul would get assassinated much like how Martin Luther King and Robert F. Kennedy were killed.

This means a grassroots revolution, from the "bottom up". People need to be educated, and they need to be made aware that what they see on TV, in newspapers, movies, etc. is mostly the reality those at the top artificially create and kick down to us. When people can finally break this sort of mental slavery, then we have a chance. But for now, thats unfortunately the way it is.
 
I believe so.

In fact, I believe McCain being the GOP nominee displays that. Over the past decade, the GOP has been incredibly conservative - and now we nominate a moderate Presidential candidate. In fact, we nominate a moderate Presidential candidate that was attack constantly by THE most influential conservative commentators for about a year. That a step towards change. Thats a step to a political revolution.

Honestly, I believe a moderate Ron Paul candidate can work in this country. Ron Paul makes a lot of sense,sadly he also makes a whole hell of a lot of crazy. I would not at all be surprised, and in fact am hoping, that the GOP evolves over the next 20 years from a Christian, Traditional Party into a realistic-libertarian party.
 
I believe so.

In fact, I believe McCain being the GOP nominee displays that. Over the past decade, the GOP has been incredibly conservative - and now we nominate a moderate Presidential candidate. In fact, we nominate a moderate Presidential candidate that was attack constantly by THE most influential conservative commentators for about a year. That a step towards change. Thats a step to a political revolution.

Honestly, I believe a moderate Ron Paul candidate can work in this country. Ron Paul makes a lot of sense,sadly he also makes a whole hell of a lot of crazy. I would not at all be surprised, and in fact am hoping, that the GOP evolves over the next 20 years from a Christian, Traditional Party into a realistic-libertarian party.


John McCain is nobody. A public face who will give the people in power what they want. Nothings changed.

I never understand why people that actually listen to Ron Paul's ideas think that he's crazy. Is it because that is what is commonly forced into our minds by the talking-heads on televsion? Point out something that is legitimatley "crazy" that Ron Paul has proposed?
 
John McCain is nobody. A public face who will give the people in power what they want. Nothings changed.

I never understand why people that actually listen to Ron Paul's ideas think that he's crazy. Is it because that is what is commonly forced into our minds by the talking-heads on televsion? Point out something that is legitimatley "crazy" that Ron Paul has proposed?

Thats funny, because was it not John McCain who has quite frequently been a thorn in the mainstream Republican's side? Was it not John McCain who voted against Bush's tax cuts? Was it not John McCain who frequently sided with Democrats (McCain-Feingold/McCain Kennedy). Was it not McCain who helped the Democrats with their filibusters on Bush court nominees?

Again, anyone who uses this ridiculous John W. McCain **** is dealing with fantasy. John McCain is very much a moderate Republican, something not seen in this position for quite a while.

The idea that isolationism is a credible foreign policy. Rants about how we should eliminate the CIA and the FBI. Gold Standards. Taking out government programs like NASA. These are utterly ridiculous and incredibly extreme. Alexander Hamilton knew in the 1700's that a strict, unbendable following of the Constitution would not work - and he was right.

That being said, you could take the basic jist of Ron Paul's argument - that the government has become far too bloated, needs to be purged, etc., and form a credible agenda. Ron Paul lacks that.
 
I believe so.

In fact, I believe McCain being the GOP nominee displays that. Over the past decade, the GOP has been incredibly conservative - and now we nominate a moderate Presidential candidate. In fact, we nominate a moderate Presidential candidate that was attack constantly by THE most influential conservative commentators for about a year. That a step towards change. Thats a step to a political revolution.

Honestly, I believe a moderate Ron Paul candidate can work in this country. Ron Paul makes a lot of sense,sadly he also makes a whole hell of a lot of crazy. I would not at all be surprised, and in fact am hoping, that the GOP evolves over the next 20 years from a Christian, Traditional Party into a realistic-libertarian party.

What makes you think McCain is a moderate?If you look at his voting record hes a Conservative through and through.
^ This is exactly why revolution will never happen.People have become so embroiled with party lines that keep on redifining themselves along the way.You have republicans who call McCain a liberal, and Democrats who call McCain a maverick,...its ridiculous.
 
What makes you think McCain is a moderate?If you look at his voting record hes a Conservative through and through.
^ This is exactly why revolution will never happen.People have become so embroiled with party lines that keep on redifining themselves along the way.You have republicans who call McCain a liberal, and Democrats who call McCain a maverick,...its ridiculous.

McCain's kind to the gay community, is environmentally friendly, is for stem cell research, etc., etc.

His history of working with Democrats and for liberal causes is well documented. McCain is not a conservative.

So what makes me think McCain is a moderate? Reality.
 
Over the years, McCain has voted for cutting federal funding of family planning clinics that counseled pregnant women on abortion and has supported a ban on late-term abortion. He has consistently received zero ratings from NARAL Pro-Choice America and Planned Parenthood. In 2000, hard-line social conservative Gary Bauer actually endorsed McCain over Bush because he said McCain assured him he would appoint pro-life judges to the Supreme Court.

He has opposed extending the assault weapons ban, federal hate crimes legislation, the establishment of the International Criminal Court, the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty, pro-labor legislation, ergonomics rules, lawsuits against gun manufacturers, and benefits for gay partners. He has supported privatizing Social Security, conservative judicial appointments, the teaching of intelligent design in public schools, tax cuts for the wealthy, and the posting of the Ten Commandments in public schools.

Bush was for stem cell research too,just not embryonic research

The man is no moderate=Hes a dyed in the wool Conservative.
 
Over the years, McCain has voted for cutting federal funding of family planning clinics that counseled pregnant women on abortion and has supported a ban on late-term abortion. He has consistently received zero ratings from NARAL Pro-Choice America and Planned Parenthood. In 2000, hard-line social conservative Gary Bauer actually endorsed McCain over Bush because he said McCain assured him he would appoint pro-life judges to the Supreme Court.

He has opposed extending the assault weapons ban, federal hate crimes legislation, the establishment of the International Criminal Court, the Comprehensive Nuclear-Test-Ban Treaty, pro-labor legislation, ergonomics rules, lawsuits against gun manufacturers, and benefits for gay partners. He has supported privatizing Social Security, conservative judicial appointments, the teaching of intelligent design in public schools, tax cuts for the wealthy, and the posting of the Ten Commandments in public schools.

Bush was for stem cell research too,just not embryonic research

The man is no moderate=Hes a dyed in the wool Conservative.

A ban on late term abortion isn't conservative - its humane.

But yes, McCain is pro-life. Being Pro-Life doesn't automatically make you conservative. I never claimed McCain was liberal - only that he was a moderate, and he is.

Again, McCain doesn't have to side with Democrats on every issue to be a moderate. Some of those votes, like voting against late term abortion, voting against an international courts, are simple common sense.

Privatizing Social Security is not a "Conservative" agenda. McCain has also been in support of states rights to decide on gay marriage. He voted AGAINST the amendment.

Also, you mention judicial appointments when McCain was one of the Republicans helping the Democrats preventing the voting in of Conservative judges. Again - he may of voting for them, but he was no great advocate.

It seems you have an immature, black and white opinion on conservative/liberal. The thing is that I am simply, correctly, saying that McCain is in the middle. He is a moderate. Anyone who is rational can see that.
 
And it should be mentioned that I never claimed McCain was a Political Revolutionary who would bring change to the GOP. He isn't. He does, however, represent a possible change in Republican thinking. A move towards the middle. Thats very positive.

Now if we can get the DNC away from the far, far left.
 
Let us clarify...
All the screaming about McCain "not being conservative enough" are from those that are farther right than he is.

That is fundamentally not wrong. The repubs failed to put in someone that worked for them in the smoky back rooms and McCain took the pulpit without them.

Now, McCain as I see it is generally Fiscally conservative and Socially moderate to liberal.

Which is where I am. Now trust me, this is not an advertisement for McCain.

I imagine if he can temper his social aspect, with a bit of fiscal responsibility, I am generally ok with him. Also, he needs to make sure not to step on the Constitution as a few pieces of legislation in the last few years have.
 
And it should be mentioned that I never claimed McCain was a Political Revolutionary who would bring change to the GOP. He isn't. He does, however, represent a possible change in Republican thinking. A move towards the middle. Thats very positive.

Now if we can get the DNC away from the far, far left.

I will concede that John McCain isn't your typical Republican candidate...thankfully. (Even though, I believe that he won the nomination largely through independent support.)
 
I will concede that John McCain isn't your typical Republican candidate...thankfully. (Even though, I believe that he won the nomination largely through independent support.)

That isn't even a question. He DID win through independent support. But even that requires that independent voters that would normally probably vote Democrat are willing to stand behind McCain. Again, thats the makings of a Political Revolution in the GOP.
 
That isn't even a question. He DID win through independent support. But even that requires that independent voters that would normally probably vote Democrat are willing to stand behind McCain. Again, thats the makings of a Political Revolution in the GOP.

I do think that it is a good start for the GOP to nominate someone like John McCain. My only hope is that the days of the "bible-thumping hate mongoring" candidates are over. I would love to see the RNC finally escape from the clutches of the religious right.
 
I do think that it is a good start for the GOP to nominate someone like John McCain. My only hope is that the days of the "bible-thumping hate mongoring" candidates are over. I would love to see the RNC finally escape from the clutches of the religious right.
That is the storyline of the election that no one is really mentioning.

Huckabee's loss may be the first major political movement in the Republican party for this century.

After Iowa, Huckabee SHOULD of become the GOP nominee. He was the perfect GOP candidate: Southern Governor, Baptist Minister and still witty and likable. The fact that he failed is very telling. The Bible Thumping group does not have the control over the GOP that many Democrats on this board believe it does.
 
That is the storyline of the election that no one is really mentioning.

Huckabee's loss may be the first major political movement in the Republican party for this century.

After Iowa, Huckabee SHOULD of become the GOP nominee. He was the perfect GOP candidate: Southern Governor, Baptist Minister and still witty and likable. The fact that he failed is very telling. The Bible Thumping group does not have the control over the GOP that many Democrats on this board believe it does.

I completely agree Norm. It is definately a start.
 
Thats funny, because was it not John McCain who has quite frequently been a thorn in the mainstream Republican's side? Was it not John McCain who voted against Bush's tax cuts? Was it not John McCain who frequently sided with Democrats (McCain-Feingold/McCain Kennedy). Was it not McCain who helped the Democrats with their filibusters on Bush court nominees?

Again, anyone who uses this ridiculous John W. McCain **** is dealing with fantasy. John McCain is very much a moderate Republican, something not seen in this position for quite a while.

The idea that isolationism is a credible foreign policy. Rants about how we should eliminate the CIA and the FBI. Gold Standards. Taking out government programs like NASA. These are utterly ridiculous and incredibly extreme. Alexander Hamilton knew in the 1700's that a strict, unbendable following of the Constitution would not work - and he was right.

That being said, you could take the basic jist of Ron Paul's argument - that the government has become far too bloated, needs to be purged, etc., and form a credible agenda. Ron Paul lacks that.

Is it not John McCain who is now in favor of the Bush tax cuts? Is it not John McCain who will continue the War in Iraq indefinitley, is it not John McCain who will essentially continue every Bush policy? It is important to note that when I say "Bush policy", it is essentially the policy of the wealthy elite who have had this country by the balls for nearly a hundred years now.

Just because he has crossed the party line doesnt make him some sort of revolutionary. The emphasis on party in this country is preciseley part of the problem. It distracts people from the real issues. The fact of the matter is, both parties want to infringe on the Constitution, boht parties want to spend mass amounts of money (albeit in different ways), both parties want to give up U.S. sovereignty to outside organizations like the United Nations or the North American Union, both parties will eventually push the U.S. toward participation in a global government. Both parties also have their platforms written by the same people behind closed doors.

And Ron Paul...

He is not an isolationist. That is a HUGE misconception. Like I said, this sort of information is drilled in our heads not by him, but the media.

It is the truth, that U.S. interventionism overseas is BAD, and only gets us into problems that we will have to deal with once AGAIN down the road.

Perfect example? Iran in 1953.

We use the CIA to overthrow their popularly elected prime minister Dr. Mossadeq, and put in place and financially support the Shah, a brutal dictator in the same fashion as Saddam, for years and years and years. Finally, in 1979, the Iranian people under the command of the radical Ayatollah overthrow the dictatorship and hold hostage 400 Americans. Ever since, and increasingly so lately, we have had problems with Iran that are essentially of our own creation.

Afghanistan, 1979. The CIA radicalizes Islamic militants under the command of Osama Bin Laden to fight the Soviets. We train them and equip them coverty. Following the war, with the country in tatters, we leave them with no support, with no money to rebuild their country, and it becomes obvious to them that we were only helping them for the same reason the Soviets invaded them. Currently we have thousands of troops in Afghanistan.

Iraq, 1963. The CIA covertly fianances and puts into motion the overthrowing of Soviet-friendly General Abdul Qassim. We sponser his replacement by the infamous Baath Party, which paves the way for Saddam Hussein's take-over in 1979. Through the early 1980's, the U.S. government funds and train's Saddam's soldiers and instigates a war between Iraq and Iran. Saddam Hussein uses WMDs bought with our money to kill thousands of his own citizens. We are currently embroiled in the most deadly U.S. conflict since Vietnam, of course, in Iraq.

So please. Interventionism does not work. It is not the place of the United States to interfer in the self-determination of other peoples. It only causes resentment, and actually leads to the U.S. being more hated and isolated in the world, and thus creates more of a threat to our security. Ron Paul advocates the freedom of other nations to choose their own destiny, and strongly believes in obtaining economic friendships with these nations, but not entangling alliances that will only get us into trouble.

The CIA and the FBI are corrupt, a waste of money, and both infringe greatly on the rights of the citizens, and grant unequal and unecessary power to the Federal government. The CIA is essentially the security agency of the rich and wealthy. Whenever anyone gets in the way of the will of these people, or has a chance of exposing them, they disappear. The CIA is essentially free-operating and it is without doubt that many of their operations will never be known by any legitimate office-holder even in our own government. Not even the President knows what the CIA is up to. The FBI is rediculous. There is nothing the FBI does that could not be down by police forces of respective states. It's a waste.

NASA is also a waste. Originally designed to compete with the Soviets for control of space and thus international respect in terms of scientific achievements. Does nothing now but collect rocks. There are plenty more importants things to sink billions of dollars into here on this planet.

Anyone who critizes the Gold Standard, while I respect greatly their opinion, needs greatly to research how the economics of this nation works. Please read my post "The Federal Reserve" in this forum to see what I mean.

Alexander Hamilton, while well-intended, was wrong. He advocated the rule of a wealthy elite, not of the people, and the creation of a central bank that essentially is a scam. Again, read my post "The Federal Reserve".

The Constitution, my friend, is the only thing we have against out government. I disregard highly and expediantly any recomendation that it not be followed strictly, especially by someone like Alexander Hamilton, a man who essentially didn't believe much in democracy.
 
It is most definitely possible. But there are special interests routed too deep in the Government of America.
 
The only way I could see this happening would be if we see a ticket like Obama/ Hagel or McCain/ Lieberman in the White House. Either one would be a ticket which would transcend political norms in this country, working in a bipartisan manner to get things done. The only other way we could have some sort of revolution would be if a serious third party became elected to Congress en masse, perhaps by denying all three parties a majority in Congress (of course, members of this new party would have to refuse to caucus with either the Democrats or Republicans to make it work).

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening. This country has always worked on a two-party system, and I don't see that ending any time soon.
 
Is it not John McCain who is now in favor of the Bush tax cuts?
He was opposed to the Bush tax cuts because Bush did not cut spending. He states that he would keep the Bush tax cuts because it would amount to a tax increase.

Is it not John McCain who will continue the War in Iraq indefinitley,
You better not be refering to the 100 years comment.

is it not John McCain who will essentially continue every Bush policy? It is important to note that when I say "Bush policy", it is essentially the policy of the wealthy elite who have had this country by the balls for nearly a hundred years now.
McCain supports stem cell research, Bush opposes it.

McCain wants stricter enviromental standards and even wants to make the EPA a Cabinet level department. Bush's enviromental record is piss poor.

McCain opposes the Federal Marriage Amendment. Bush supports it.

McCain wants to have a more multilateral foreign policy while maintaining an American hawkish foreign policy. Bush's foreign policy was just assininely unilateral. McCain is far more critical on Russia than Bush is.

McCain opposes torture while Bush allows the such a heinous attrocity. McCain also wants to close down Guantanamo Bay.
 
The two major parties, Democrats & Republicans, do nothing for me. The Democrats might have some good ideas at the core but lack any toughness to see them through. The Republicans, well, are stuck in the 1800's and are not a modern party. What would it take for you to get involved in politic. Here are a few policy option:

Raise the minimum wage to: $16.00 an hour
Cut the national debt in half
Cut all income taxes by 10%
End oversees wars (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya)

I was just wondering where everyone's belief's were.
 
Get better people running the parties first. The ones there now & the ones looking to replace the ones there now all seem like they suck
 
They can't act as a spoiler for the party I usually want to win.

They must have a real chance at winning.
 
I am not and probably will never be part of a political party. I don't agree with a lot of what either side has to offer in terms of the major two. I am an independent.

Also...raising the minimum wage to $16.00 an hour would be stupid. It would wreck the economy.
 
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