Discussion: Racism - Part 1

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“During the course of the next several minutes, the Deputies on scene conspired to concoct a citable offense against Mr. Sheppard. These law enforcement officials attempted to justify Deputy Plunkett’s actions, ex post facto. Most critically, Deputy Hanson and Deputy Rodriguez drafted a citation that was ultimately signed by Deputy Plunkett. Neither Deputy Hanson nor Deputy Ramirez was willing to personally sign the citation, after engaging in a lengthy discussion concerning the contents of said citation. As she was attempting to creatively fashion charges to be brought against Mr. Sheppard within the aforementioned citation, Deputy Hanson stated, ‘please, just let me taser him!’”

None of this would be known today if Mr. Sheppard had not been a P.I. on a surveillance job. For whatever reason, once the deputies learned that he was a legitimate private investigator in the middle of a legal investigation—they never thought that he might have devices recording audio or video.

Mr. Sheppard was not arrested. He was given one ticket for tinted windows and no license plate. His Tahoe did have a temporary registration in the windshield and paper license plates on the back of the vehicle as required by law at the time of the incident.

On April 20, 2015, Mr. Sheppard filed a civil lawsuit in federal court for violation of his constitutional rights, assault, battery, false imprisonment, intentional infliction of emotional distress and various other charges.

The trial took place last week in Los Angeles September 13 through September 15 before the Honorable S. James Otero. After hearing the evidence and viewing a small portion of the video evidence provided by Mr. Sheppard, a jury of 8 persons found in favor of the sheriff’s department.

Mr. Sheppard plans to appeal the verdict.

It is unknown whether any of the Crescenta Valley Station deputies on scene faced disciplinary action.

I don't know how anyone can watch that video and then not see why people are not marching and protesting what's going on. This is a PRIME example of what Kapernick is talking about. That is sickening and I really want the police defenders to justify it and help me to understand what Colin is doing so wrong in bringing this stuff to the mainstream. For years, rappers have been talking about this stuff and people basically made fun of it and ignored it but it is a serious problem going on.

 

[DeadPresident]

Those are usually the same rappers the BLM radicals quote about killing pigs. There are ways of having the conversation and mindlessly being aggressive is not the way it occurs successfully. Also...those same rappers are often individuals that gloat about their illegal activities, it seems more than a tad hypocritical for them to be reprimanding anyone about breaking the law, no? Who's to say which illegal activity is or isn't permissible? What's good for the goose is good for the gander surely.

Some people are anti police brutality and others are anti police, it's a relevant distinction to make.

 

[DeadPresident]

Also, random question slightly related to the topic, why do people use vapid celebrities like athletes or entertainers as the spokespeople/beacons for their communities instead of relevant and educated individuals like Neil Degrasse Tyson or Steven Pinker?

Why do people care about what Colin Kapaernick or Selena Gomes or Emma Watson think about a social phenomenon but not, you know, people perhaps educated in fields that could actually address the issue?

 

[Docker2.0]

A lot of times those rappers tend to be the victim of police misbehavings which is why they are the perfect people to talk about it. That PI would probably be doing 5 years in prison if not for that video and there is no telling how many guys are doing time or even dead by that same cop because he was having a bad day.

And as far as athletes and celebs being spokes people, why can't they be? Why not bring this to the forefront where it belongs instead of just burying it on the 4th page. I have known people who have had their lives turned upside down because a cop is having a bad day but because some people have never had it happened to them, they really can't understand.

 

[DeadPresident]

Sure, In some cases that may be the fact, but in some cases those rappers were willfully breaking the law...right?

Bringing things to people's attention and actually solving the problem are two different things. So Kaepernick raises the issue, when did awareness solve a problem? If anything different communities need better leadership and opinions from people that weren't dealing drugs as teenagers. Why does the black community see Snoop and TI as their spokespeople and not Tyson or Sowell or Obama? Why does the white community see trivial celebrities as their spokespeople instead of intellectuals?

Rappers might be in a place to talk about police brutality but they might also be in a position to tell kids not to deal drugs or antagonize police, right? Or maybe make decisions like Tyson and Obama instead of 50 Cent or Ja Rule.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Sure, In some cases that may be the fact, but in some cases those rappers were willfully breaking the law...right?

Bringing things to people's attention and actually solving the problem are two different things. So Kaepernick raises the issue, when did awareness solve a problem? If anything different communities need better leadership and opinions from people that weren't dealing drugs as teenagers. Why does the black community see Snoop and TI as their spokespeople and not Tyson or Sowell or Obama? Why does the white community see trivial celebrities as their spokespeople instead of intellectuals?

Rappers might be in a place to talk about police brutality but they might also be in a position to tell kids not to deal drugs or antagonize police, right? Or maybe make decisions like Tyson and Obama instead of 50 Cent or Ja Rule.

Sowell? The guy rallies against social programs and multiculturalism while supporting the likes of Ted Cruz. I'm not sure why black youth should idolize him over a few dozen other philosophers or public intellectuals other than the fact that he happens to have dark skin.

And blacks aren't the only ones to undervalue philosophers and intellectuals. Most whites couldn't name and argue their 3 greatest philosophers of the 20th century without sounding like complete morons. They're much more likely to know the details of Duck Dynasty, American Idol or Sunday's football games.

You don't have to worry about people getting their political ideas from music anymore. Popular rap, indie, country, rock are all mindless drivel now. But once upon a time, pop entertainment and activism/empowerment were intertwined. I doubt those in power really benefit from the masses getting politically empowered by anti-establishment music so they pretty much did away with it

And your idea of music encouraging people to stay sober and comply with laws is ridiculous. Most people don't want to feel like a 5 year old North Korean when they listen to music. There are less obvious ways to get people to blindly follow the status quo which you can witness yourself by turning on the radio or tv.

 

[MadVillainy]

Those are usually the same rappers the BLM radicals quote about killing pigs. There are ways of having the conversation and mindlessly being aggressive is not the way it occurs successfully. Also...those same rappers are often individuals that gloat about their illegal activities, it seems more than a tad hypocritical for them to be reprimanding anyone about breaking the law, no? Who's to say which illegal activity is or isn't permissible? What's good for the goose is good for the gander surely.

Some people are anti police brutality and others are anti police, it's a relevant distinction to make.

Big hip hop fan here and I cant think of many modern mainstream rappers today who have talked about "killing pigs" in a non horrorcore song. I think 50 Cent and the Game have said such things and then I can think of 2 modern underground that I've listened (such a loose term) who have said something along the lines of "killing pigs"

Hip hop vocally advocating the killing of cops is a very small and not loud minority

 

[giveyourself12%]

I really want the police defenders to justify it .

Blaming this on "The Police" as a whole makes about as much sense as me being a victim of gang violence perpetrated by black people and saying, "Ok all you black people defenders...."

I hate being PC but in this case we need to be precise with our language.

Notice I didn't say "careful". In order to help understand and improve this situation we need to be able to discuss uncomfortable topics whether it's, "Why are cops who clearly seem to get a power high on abusing their power not screened out? Why are they protected by other officers?"

Or, "If black communities fostering a culture of violence is a false narrative, what's with all the young black guys posting pictures with guns?"

We need to be able to ask things like this without sweeping generalizations of any one group or race.

 

[MadVillainy]

I don't get the idea of having "being PC". I get some may go over board but I don't get what's wrong with the idea of it

 

[2kt09]

Or, "If black communities fostering a culture of violence is a false narrative, what's with all the young black guys posting pictures with guns?"

We need to be able to ask things like this without sweeping generalizations of any one group or race.

A more apt recent example are these riots that keep popping up in the news, which do just as much to propagating those stereotypes.

Speaking of racism and bigotry on full display ^

 

[Hotwire]

A more apt recent example are these riots that keep popping up in the news, which do just as much to propagating those stereotypes.

Speaking of racism and bigotry on full display ^

I've often said that, no matter what the stereotype is, who it's about, good or bad, are always people in those demographics perfectly willing to perpetuate it.

 

[chamber-music]

Also, random question slightly related to the topic, why do people use vapid celebrities like athletes or entertainers as the spokespeople/beacons for their communities instead of relevant and educated individuals like Neil Degrasse Tyson or Steven Pinker?

Why do people care about what Colin Kapaernick or Selena Gomes or Emma Watson think about a social phenomenon but not, you know, people perhaps educated in fields that could actually address the issue?

We live in a world in which Donald Trump is running from President.

Rappers might be in a place to talk about police brutality but they might also be in a position to tell kids not to deal drugs or antagonize police, right? Or maybe make decisions like Tyson and Obama instead of 50 Cent or Ja Rule.

Black people aren't idiots. Contrary to popular belief most black kids don't join gangs or get involved in crime because of rap music.

A lot of popular rap is braggadocio. Braggadocio is a type of rapping where the MC is "bragging and boasting".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braggadocio_(rap)

Most rappers have personas and don't actually didn't actually do most the things they say they do. William Roberts aka Rick Ross got his name and 'mobster character' from actual drug trafficker "Freeway" Rick Ross.

Even the rappers with actual criminal backgrounds often over hype things for marketing/street credit reasons.

Plenty of black people do listen to Obama and Tyson. More people listen to them than 50 Cent or Ja Rule. Ja Rule hasn't been relevant to anyone since 2004 and I don't think anyone cares about 50 Cents opinion either.

One of the more respected and vocal social activists in the rap community is Killer Mike who ran as a write-in candidate to become the representative for Georgia's 55th district in the Georgia House of Representatives. Michael Render (Killer Mike) is the son of a former police officer.

 

[2kt09]

Yeah, Lil' Wayne is a prime example.
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[Docker2.0]

I've often said that, no matter what the stereotype is, who it's about, good or bad, are always people in those demographics perfectly willing to perpetuate it.

Exactly! Minorities riot after police injustice but what about those hockey games and sports teams winning championships? They riot as well. But I guess that's "Ok" because it's in good fun.

 

[DeadPresident]

Sowell? The guy rallies against social programs and multiculturalism while supporting the likes of Ted Cruz. I'm not sure why black youth should idolize him over a few dozen other philosophers or public intellectuals other than the fact that he happens to have dark skin.

Come now, you're smarter than this, you know how rife identity politics is in general, you engage in it frequently on this politics board. You know damn well Sowell's identity, and indeed anyone else's, has become crucial to who does or doesn't listen to them. I don't know his opinions on multiculturalism and I don't know which specific things Ted Cruz has said he supports so I can't comment on that, if they're intellectually dubious then that's what they are.

Point being Sowell is an intellectually minded person and he happens to be black, why is his opinion any less important than random athletes or celebrities not as educated as he is?

And blacks aren't the only ones to undervalue philosophers and intellectuals. Most whites couldn't name and argue their 3 greatest philosophers of the 20th century without sounding like complete morons. They're much more likely to know the details of Duck Dynasty, American Idol or Sunday's football games.

Uh...I know, that's why I gave examples of whites too - I mentioned them by name, right there in my post. Anti-intellectualism is on the rise in general and needs to be addressed. We have dozens of shows about little plebs trying to become pop stars and no attention given to kids that want to be aspiring doctors or academics or engineers, or even artisans and craftsmen that the world is sorely lacking as everyone dogpiles into tertiary education thinking there are unlimited jobs in the professions.

You don't have to worry about people getting their political ideas from music anymore. Popular rap, indie, country, rock are all mindless drivel now. But once upon a time, pop entertainment and activism/empowerment were intertwined. I doubt those in power really benefit from the masses getting politically empowered by anti-establishment music so they pretty much did away with it

I don't care about whether or not people get ideas from it, I'm specifically referring to who in society people turn to for leadership. And, at the moment everyone, no matter their color or creed, looks for leadership from glorified court jesters like Bono or TI or Jay-Z or whichever pop music twit is in vogue at a given time. Some of them may be good human beings, some of them may not, but they won't be the people to solve our social problems I can guarantee you that. They're just musicians or just actors, half of them have no brain cells to rub together.

And your idea of music encouraging people to stay sober and comply with laws is ridiculous. Most people don't want to feel like a 5 year old North Korean when they listen to music. There are less obvious ways to get people to blindly follow the status quo which you can witness yourself by turning on the radio or tv.

Where did my post say anything about that? You have a tendency to drag your personal life into arguments like this, are you doing that here?

I don't think music content achieves much of anything. I'm referring to the people making the music and their relevance in society.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Stereotyping an occupation is different than stereotyping based on genetics.

An occupation is a choice and has certain requirements. Being a certain race is not a choice and has no requirements.

People expect politicians and lawyers to lie based on certain job requirements. Job requirements they chose to do.

Which is different from saying everyone who descended from sub-sahara Africa are biologically programed to be degenerate criminals.

 

[DeadPresident]

Big hip hop fan here and I cant think of many modern mainstream rappers today who have talked about "killing pigs" in a non horrorcore song. I think 50 Cent and the Game have said such things and then I can think of 2 modern underground that I've listened (such a loose term) who have said something along the lines of "killing pigs"

Hip hop vocally advocating the killing of cops is a very small and not loud minority

But it is a cultural association, right? If someone was asked the question "Are rappers and policemen generally friends?", what would the average response be?

Nobody raps about rims and baggy pants anymore either but those are historically part of the genre, right? We can't erase historical associations when it's convenient.

We live in a world in which Donald Trump is running from President.

True, and I've made countless posts about how much of an indictment that is of our global society at large.

Black people aren't idiots. Contrary to popular belief most black kids don't join gangs or get involved in crime because of rap music.

A lot of popular rap is braggadocio. Braggadocio is a type of rapping where the MC is "bragging and boasting".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braggadocio_(rap)

Most rappers have personas and don't actually didn't actually do most the things they say they do. William Roberts aka Rick Ross got his name and 'mobster character' from actual drug trafficker "Freeway" Rick Ross.

Even the rappers with actual criminal backgrounds often over hype things for marketing/street credit reasons.

Plenty of black people do listen to Obama and Tyson. More people listen to them than 50 Cent or Ja Rule. Ja Rule hasn't been relevant to anyone since 2004 and I don't think anyone cares about 50 Cents opinion either.

One of the more respected and vocal social activists in the rap community is Killer Mike who ran as a write-in candidate to become the representative for Georgia's 55th district in the Georgia House of Representatives. Michael Render (Killer Mike) is the son of a former police officer.

The direction the genre has taken is irrelevant, like I said in the previous post - my focus and what I'm referring to is why people look to certain individuals for leadership or as an example. The bolded feels pure conjecture on your part, you may be right, you may be wrong.

It doesn't matter if a particular artist isn't relevant anymore, Britney Spears isn't relevant anymore but she's been replaced by 20 little pop ditzes twice as inane as she is. The point remains, the people the average person looks to as some example of aspirant figures are all disappointingly mediocre human beings that have made careers out of talent show gimmicks.

 

[DeadPresident]

Stereotyping an occupation is different than stereotyping based on genetics.

An occupation is a choice and has certain requirements. Being a certain race is not a choice and has no requirements.

People expect politicians and lawyers to lie based on certain job requirements. Job requirements they chose to do.

Which is different from saying everyone who descended from sub-sahara Africa are biologically programed to be degenerate criminals.

...what? Where am I stereotyping based on genetics?

I may be stereotyping about culture, but I'm not stereotyping about genetics. Your response also has nothing to do with the crux of my statement, which I'll repeat since it seems to be going lost in general:

Why are people involved in certain (trivial) occupations seen to be leaders for a community at large?

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Come now, you're smarter than this, you know how rife identity politics is in general, you engage in it frequently on this politics board. You know damn well Sowell's identity, and indeed anyone else's, has become crucial to who does or doesn't listen to them. I don't know his opinions on multiculturalism and I don't know which specific things Ted Cruz has said he supports so I can't comment on that, if they're intellectually dubious then that's what they are.

Point being Sowell is an intellectually minded person and he happens to be black, why is his opinion any less important than random athletes or celebrities not as educated as he is?

That's the thing. Identity politics is intertwined with actual principles and ideology. The black community isn't going to support a laissez-faire republican just because they're black.

And if an athlete starts saying the things Sowell does they'll turn on them too.

Where did my post say anything about that? You have a tendency to drag your personal life into arguments like this, are you doing that here?

I don't think music content achieves much of anything. I'm referring to the people making the music and their relevance in society.

An artist's public image and message is tied directly to what's conveyed in their music.

If Snoop told everyone to avoid soft drugs and to always side with cops then people would assume it's a prank. If he continued to do it, it would only alienate the same people who sustain his status as a superstar.

 

[DeadPresident]

That's the thing. Identity politics is intertwined with actual principles and ideology. The black community isn't going to support a laissez-faire republican just because they're black.

And if an athlete starts saying the things Sowell does they'll turn on them too.

It's not about supporting, it's about actually entertaining his opinion and viewing people who aren't entertainers as worthwhile aspirant figures. A key question might be why people turn on Sowell for his beliefs - is it because they intellectually understand what he's saying or is it because he isn't feeding them the age-old "You're all victims, liberals and leftists are your salvation" line?

Also, it's worth noting that a black American who doesn't allow his blackness to dictate every other level of his discursive practices is perhaps someone to look up to for the black community, instead of people like Jessie Williams who only wants to paint the black community as eternal, magical victims with thinly veiled ethno-nationalism.

How many kids want to be intellectuals like Tyson vs. how many kids want to be Kanye West and have dank cars and houses and a wife whose ass you can bounce phone books off of? And this counts for society at large, every demographic.

An artist's public image and message is tied directly to what's conveyed in their music.

If Snoop told everyone to avoid soft drugs and to always side with cops then people would assume it's a prank. If he continued to do it, it would only alienate the same people who sustain his status as a superstar.

Uh, so how about people stop paying attention to him and listen to other figures? You're somewhat proving my point here, people need to stop using pop culture icons, half of which are of average intelligence and without a notable achievement to their names, as their beacons of social aspiration.

 

[Donner]

DeadPresident has a point. If the general population doesn't really listen to pop culture icons, how did Jenny McCarthy manage to convince so many people that vaccines cause autism? Pop culture icons have influence and therefore have power, whether you want to believe it or not. Neil deGrasse Tyson also said it was dangerous when he referred to that idiot rapper who believes that the Earth is flat. People need to choose better role models to listen to.

 

[DeadPresident]

Just to contextualize my statement, a group at a cognitive research center published this study in 2011:

http://news.rpi.edu/luwakkey/2902

Their study concludes that statistically when 10% of a population holds an "unshakable belief" - it will invariably be adopted by a massive percentage of the population. They used the events in Egypt and Tunisia as case studies to show how dictators who were in power for decades could suddenly be usurped and suddenly be seen as malignant in a matter of weeks or months.

They observe that >10% an idea spreads at a snail's pace, and >10% it climbs with a bullet. That's an incredibly low threshold, and it means when just 10% of a population can be unequivocally convinced of something that the majority of the rest of that population will fall in line. The vocal minority eventually transforms the silent majority, apply that principle to every ideological discussion and social issue you find important, and realize that if idiots are busy propagating their nonsense faster than intellectuals propagate reason and fact you've got a moderately alarming future to look forward to - especially considering how quickly information disseminates in modern society.

 

[conan69]

Double [post

 

[conan69]

Double post

 

[MadVillainy]

BLM does care about black on black violence I don't know where you got the idea they didn't.

And rap music doesn't glorify violence anymore than most people's favorite action, Gangster, Tarantino, etc movies or video games