Discussion: Racism - Part 4

[chaseter]

I'm sorry, but context and history does matter. Yes... it's more offensive to make fun of a Jewish person for their physical features... because yes, only 70 years ago, we caged them, starved them, and executed them by the millions. We know what that kind of rhetoric can do.
Now... compare that to making fun of a white, German 25 year old, multimillionaire for his big nose.... that's not as offensive. He's in a position of celebrity and high stature, and it's natural to make fun of someone with lots of clout.

Can black people be racist against white people? Sure.. Is it just as vile? I guess... but white people HAVE been the benefactor of centuries of benefits of racism. I'm supposed to get all upset at the black guy for making fun of a white guy? His great grandfather was enslaved and executed, his grandmother was raped, and now here he is.... I'm not going to snap his neck off for having some vile beliefs about it.

But for a highly successful white woman like Roseanne to jokingly equate a black person to a monkey... yes.. that is highly offensive. Not only is it racist, but it comes with a profound ignorance about how Roseanne got to where she's at. Would she be so successful if she was born a black girl in the Bronx? How about her, and people like her, get off their high horse for a bit, and appreciate the freakin context? I have no trouble whatsoever shaming them.

Would I do the same if Dave Chappell racially mocked Jennifer Anniston? No, probably not. I'll pick the fights that I find most offensive, the most damaging, and I won't waste my time shaming someone when it's in good jest, which is something I'd argue Roseanne's tweets weren't.

I wouldn't argue that the white experience doesn't matter. I'd argue that whites should keep it in perspective... and as the group owning the majority of the power and the privilege and the wealth in this world... they shouldn't get bent out of shape about a few slanders they might have to endure. If they are offended about the downsides of being white... well, they are more than free to reject the upsides as well... and walk into nature on their own, I suppose.

I like your response on racism against whites being; “I guess”, and “but”.

Come on....

When they go low, we go lower?

 

[chaseter]

Yes. It does. That's what it was designed to do.

Then why are Asians the richest demo in the US? No one has countered his point...

 

[Teelie]

Nice to see that the Party of Lincoln™ is once again mad because another crappy Confederate statue has been taken down. Makes sense(?).

The Party of Lincoln no longer exists and hasn't since roughly the 1950's. Though it is ironic that the closest party to that is actually the Democrats these days.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Then why are Asians the richest demo in the US? No one has countered his point...

Because a large part of the Asian population in the US are immigrants, who moved here for school and business purposes. Many of them already come from wealthy families. This is why this is a thing:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/17/us/asian-income-inequality.html

The leads of the new romantic comedy “Crazy Rich Asians” are precisely what you might expect, based on the title: picture-perfect images of the immigrant success story. Viewers might even get the impression from watching the film that every Asian lives a charmed life.

Nick Young (played by Henry Golding) and Rachel Chu (Constance Wu) are young, high-achieving professors at New York University. Nick is the scion of a spectacularly wealthy family from Singapore, while Rachel shared a hardscrabble life with her mother, a Chinese immigrant, before becoming a star economist.

But that is not a full picture of the Asian-American experience. Asian-Americans are now the most economically divided racial or ethnic group in the country, displacing African-Americans, according to a new Pew Research Center analysis of United States Census Bureau data. The chart below shows that income inequality among Asian-Americans has nearly doubled from 1970 to 2016.

And in the city that Nick and Rachel call home? Asians in New York are the poorest immigrant group. The number of Asians living in poverty grew by 44 percent over about a decade and a half, to more than 245,000 in 2016, from 170,000 in 2000, according to the Asian American Federation.

While rich Asians have become the highest-earning group in the nation, income growth among poor Asians has largely stagnated. This trend mirrors that of other racial groups, though income inequality has accelerated fastest among Asians.

By 2016, Asians in the top 10th of income distribution earned about $120,000 more than those in the bottom 10th. Disparities among Asian-Americans are primarily driven by the different levels of education, skills and English-language proficiency among the many groups that make up the diaspora. People from India and China have higher incomes than those from Southeast Asia because they have higher levels of education on average.

For example, three-fourths of Taiwanese and Indians in America have a bachelor’s degree or higher, said Jennifer Lee, a professor of sociology at Columbia University. Southeast Asian groups from countries like Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos, however, lag well behind the average for other Asian-Americans.

Jonathan Lee, 30, a Chinese-American who lives in New York and works as a senior designer at Etsy, and his sister, Jessica, are both college graduates, unlike their parents. “My father told us stories of sleeping on an ironing board at his father’s laundromat,” Mr. Lee said. “My mother came here when she was 19 and took night classes at F.I.T. to become a pattern maker. My father spent his career at ConEd. Now they own a home.”

Asian immigrants make up a less monolithic group than they once did. In 1970, Asian immigrants came mostly from East Asia, but South Asian immigrants are fueling the growth that makes Asian-Americans the fastest-expanding group in the country, said Dr. Lee, the Columbia University sociologist.

Asian-Americans, who accounted for less than 1 percent of the population in 1970, are up to 6 percent today. South Asians and Southeast Asians together now outnumber East Asians. Family-sponsored migration remains the largest source of Asian immigration.

Inequality is elastic, of course, adjusting over time because of fluctuating waves of immigration, as seen among the 10 most populous Asian immigrant groups in the United States.

The disparity in income is in part caused by the gap between immigrants who arrived on skills-based visas and those who did not. “Vietnamese, Cambodians, Laotians, they’re primarily refugee populations,” said Karthick Ramakrishnan, director of AAPI Data, which publishes demographic data and policy research on Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders.

The difference becomes even more pronounced over time. “Existing immigrant Indians and Chinese are highly educated, and then they recruit their highly skilled relatives,” Mr. Ramakrishnan said. “Family visas tend to go to highly educated people.” So when President Trump and his Republican allies call for an end to family-based immigration, they’re asking to keep the best and the brightest out, he said.

 

[MaceB]

I like your response on racism against whites being; “I guess”, and “but”.

Come on....

When they go low, we go lower?

It's a big "yes, but" statement. I don't see how it's going low to say that "Yes, every instance of racism against caucasians is just as bad as every instance of racism against African Americans... BUT... Caucasians are the largest demographic that benefits from systemic racism in their favor.

Call that statement low or high... it's the truth.

 

[DeadPresident]

Because a large part of the Asian population in the US are immigrants, who moved here for school and business purposes. Many of them already come from wealthy families. This is why this is a thing:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/08/17/us/asian-income-inequality.html

This still doesn’t do anything to really address the whole “the US is the most racist country, etc, etc” narrative though because the highest earners by ethnic/racial demographic are still non-white. The fact that that group’s earnings are being affected like ever other race group’s (global economic trends to blame, I assume) doesn’t seem that surprising.

 

[jolldan]

Maybe this is not the right section but does anyone else feel that a lot of this outrage from cultural appropriation, political correctness and identity politics actually hinders race relations instead of helping them.

I honestly think its asinine as a lot of these things feel like they are pushing us more back in our racial groups instead of promoting that we are all very similar and should be getting on.

This still doesn’t do anything to really address the whole “the US is the most racist country, etc, etc” narrative though because the highest earners by ethnic/racial demographic are still non-white. The fact that that group’s earnings are being affected like ever other race group’s (global economic trends to blame, I assume) doesn’t seem that surprising.

I have never been to the US but would be incredibly shocked if that was true.

 

[chaseter]

It's a big "yes, but" statement. I don't see how it's going low to say that "Yes, every instance of racism against caucasians is just as bad as every instance of racism against African Americans... BUT... Caucasians are the largest demographic that benefits from systemic racism in their favor.

Call that statement low or high... it's the truth.

You will never unite all cultures and races with ‘but’ and ‘because’ when it comes to racism...especially with millennials that are generations removed from institutional racism.

I’m sorry for being racist BUT you deserve it because of your ancestors.

Good luck with that.

 

[chaseter]

Maybe this is not the right section but does anyone else feel that a lot of this outrage from cultural appropriation, political correctness and identity politics actually hinders race relations instead of helping them.

Yes

Those are devices designed to divide. You cannot demand inclusiveness but also exclusiveness. The media and race hustlers are the primary causes. They both profit off of this crap.

 

[MaceB]

You will never unite all cultures and races with ‘but’ and ‘because’ when it comes to racism...especially with millennials that are generations removed from institutional racism.

I’m sorry for being racist BUT you deserve it because of your ancestors.

Good luck with that.

I don't think we'll unite the cultures by not being honest about the problem or pretending that the past didn't happen either.

Millennials are not generations removed from institutional racism. There are unfair practices in police services and the justice department right now... today. And systemic racism also exists... false perceptions causing people to call the police unnecessarily or to not hire someone continue to this day as well.

It sounds like you want to pretend as if every baby is born into this country on an equal playing field. Well, that's not true. If you are born African American in the US, then you are more likely to be convicted, less likely to have a job, less likely to attend a top rated school. That's a problem, and the origin charts back hundreds of years to the disenfranchisement of the African American community, whether you like it or not. Just because you insist that that racism is now no longer an issue, doesn't make it so. The American caucasian has been the beneficiary of unfair treatment for 250 years, while African Americans have born the brunt of it. And the effects of that are felt to this day.

Exactly what kind of standard are you suggesting? Under your view, how far separated does one need to be until they claim bereaved status? Could we kill 6 million Jews, and then just wait 30 years? 50? If that sounds silly, it's because it is. You don't judge these things by time.. you judge them by the impacts. The African American and Native American community are still feeling the impacts of their disenfranchisement. Until those impacts are gone, it's our responsibility to alleviate them. Why us? Again, because we are the beneficiaries of the treatment that now leaves them in dire circumstances. We've talked this through at least 3 times before. You come back with the same "racism is racism" remarks, and then I bring up the historical context, and then you ignore it and say "I'm being racist," and then I say, "wait, let me explain my point about the historical origins of the current disparity" and then you talk about how racism is bad regardless of who it's pointed at.... and on and on and on.

You don't agree with the premise that racism exists today or that past racism effects today.. so let's just chalk it up to fundamental differences of opinion and move on.

 

[chaseter]

I don’t see you calling all Germans, Jew Killers or anti-semites. How long until whites are unchained from sins of their great great great great great great great grandfathers (even though most whites couldn’t afford slaves and some blacks even owned slaves). If most whites were racist bigots, Civil Rights would have died out 60 years ago and continue to be trampled on to this day. Institutional racism is dead. It’s against the law. The actions of a few do not dictate the feelings or thoughts of the rest.

The systemic problems you mention are economic and personal choice. Poverty is the new personal barrier, not race. If race was still a barrier then Asians wouldn’t be the wealthiest demo and Oprah wouldn’t be a billionaire.

Racism exists and will always from all sides. You see the story about the black police chief’s son that assaulted a Sikh man? How about the black lady in CA that beat an elderly Latino gentleman and told him to get out? Racism will always exist. What matters is that it’s illegal for cops, doctors, banks, etc to be racist. You can’t stop an individual from being a racist a hole.

 

[Grommers]

It's a big "yes, but" statement. I don't see how it's going low to say that "Yes, every instance of racism against caucasians is just as bad as every instance of racism against African Americans... BUT... Caucasians are the largest demographic that benefits from systemic racism in their favor.

Call that statement low or high... it's the truth.

Oh yeah? Go on.

 

[Sithborg]

I don’t see you calling all Germans, Jew Killers or anti-semites. How long until whites are unchained from sins of their great great great great great great great grandfathers (even though most whites couldn’t afford slaves and some blacks even owned slaves). If most whites were racist bigots, Civil Rights would have died out 60 years ago and continue to be trampled on to this day. Institutional racism is dead. It’s against the law. The actions of a few do not dictate the feelings or thoughts of the rest.

The systemic problems you mention are economic and personal choice. Poverty is the new personal barrier, not race. If race was still a barrier then Asians wouldn’t be the wealthiest demo and Oprah wouldn’t be a billionaire.

Racism exists and will always from all sides. You see the story about the black police chief’s son that assaulted a Sikh man? How about the black lady in CA that beat an elderly Latino gentleman and told him to get out? Racism will always exist. What matters is that it’s illegal for cops, doctors, banks, etc to be racist. You can’t stop an individual from being a racist a hole.

Except plenty of data how "white" names are chosen over "black" names in the screening process for interviews.

As for Civil Rights being trampled on, yeah, that has been going on for quite some time. Disenfranchisement of minorities has been going on for quite some time. In fact, they are getting bolder and bolder about it. I mean, a district in GA was recommended to close 7/9 of their polling places. No recomendations for alternate locations. Guess the the racial make up of said district?

 

[chaseter]

Link to DOJ data about name discrimination? That’s illegal so I would like to see some federal statistics as this would be a super easy ACLU slam dunk.

Does it happen? Yes I’m sure. I’m not disputing that. But, it’s not a pandemic as you or others would suggest. Black unemployment is 5 something percent last I read...around May or June. White unemployment was 4 percent same period. That’s not a pandemic. The rate would be astronomically high if it was pervasive...especially during boom times like now. Is the difference because of racism? Sure some is. Is the difference because of education? I’m sure that’s a factor. Is the difference because of opportunity geographically? Yes that part of it too. You can’t just blame everything on the racist boogeyman but it’s certainly more convenient to do so.

A good way to tell the difference between a race baiter and a normal person is that the race baiter blames everything on racism whereas the level headed person will acknowledge it’s part of a bigger picture of multiple circumstances and reasons.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

This still doesn’t do anything to really address the whole “the US is the most racist country, etc, etc” narrative though because the highest earners by ethnic/racial demographic are still non-white. The fact that that group’s earnings are being affected like ever other race group’s (global economic trends to blame, I assume) doesn’t seem that surprising.

Its not the most racist country. Doesn't mean it isn't still heavily racist. Which the US is.

 

[Grommers]

Its not the most racist country. Doesn't mean it isn't still heavily racist. Which the US is.

So, which country would you deem not heavily racist?

 

[MaceB]

Oh yeah? Go on.

That sentence was my summary statement, so I don't think I need to expand on it.

 

[MaceB]

So, which country would you deem not heavily racist?

If I had to take a swing at that... I'd say South Africa or India/Pakistan or Israel/Palestine are more racist than America. Not heavily racist? Norway, Netherlands, Sweden.

 

[MaceB]

I don’t see you calling all Germans, Jew Killers or anti-semites. How long until whites are unchained from sins of their great great great great great great great grandfathers (even though most whites couldn’t afford slaves and some blacks even owned slaves). If most whites were racist bigots, Civil Rights would have died out 60 years ago and continue to be trampled on to this day. Institutional racism is dead. It’s against the law. The actions of a few do not dictate the feelings or thoughts of the rest.

The systemic problems you mention are economic and personal choice. Poverty is the new personal barrier, not race. If race was still a barrier then Asians wouldn’t be the wealthiest demo and Oprah wouldn’t be a billionaire.

Racism exists and will always from all sides. You see the story about the black police chief’s son that assaulted a Sikh man? How about the black lady in CA that beat an elderly Latino gentleman and told him to get out? Racism will always exist. What matters is that it’s illegal for cops, doctors, banks, etc to be racist. You can’t stop an individual from being a racist a hole.

I don't go around calling white Americans honkees, or masters either. But do the German people still carry responsibility for the Holocaust? Yeah.. I think they do. The white, German citizen has a duty to preach inclusiveness and to ensure that Jewish citizens are not discriminated against. Same exact principle.

And I started by asking you the question, and you're the one putting up a fuss, so I think you should have to answer. How long does one have to be separated before they can disavow responsibility? 5 years? 30? 50? I already answered your question by saying that it wasn't about time.. it was about impacts, and until the impacts of slavery no longer exist, we'll continue to carry responsibility for their progress.

Institutional racism is not dead. I don't see how you can say that when black communities are more poor on average, less educated on average, and the black male is more likely to be incarcerated. Even if you were to say that's more about class than race... where did the class disparity originate? It originated when we refused to allow African Americans to hold property.

Systemic racism is not dead. When a white woman accidentally calls the police on her neighbors because she sees a "burglar" trying to get in, or an educated successful black woman is treated like an employee at a retail shop... that's not their choice. That has to do with the unspoken, unnoticed, subconscious racism of many white citizens, which still exists plenty in today's day and age.

Racism exists in all demographics... but as the primary beneficiary of racism in this country, white folks still have a lot to do to curb the institutional and systemic racism that continues to hold the black community back, that was born out of our history with slavery.

 

[Grommers]

If I had to take a swing at that... I'd say South Africa or India/Pakistan or Israel/Palestine are more racist than America. Not heavily racist? Norway, Netherlands, Sweden.

Why specifically those 3?

 

[Grommers]

That sentence was my summary statement, so I don't think I need to expand on it.

Well, you only touched upon white leaders, but what about the black ones that made huge riches and still control different aspects of their respective countries.

So I figured there was more, unless we just aren't talking about that, and thats okay if we aren't I was just surprised you only acknowledged the one side of that argument.

 

[MaceB]

Well, you only touched upon white leaders, but what about the black ones that made huge riches and still control different aspects of their respective countries.

So I figured there was more, unless we just aren't talking about that, and thats okay if we aren't I was just surprised you only acknowledged the one side of that argument.

I have no obligation to prove that all black individuals are discriminated against to prove that racism still exists.

My statement was that - yes, all racism is equally bad, but that caucasians gain the most from systemic and institutionalized racism.

 

[MaceB]

Why specifically those 3?

It's not a complete list. There are many countries that are less racist than the United States and many countries that are more racist than the United States. What's the point of your question?

 

[Grommers]

It's not a complete list. There are many countries that are less racist than the United States and many countries that are more racist than the United States. What's the point of your question?

Well those 3 countries are white dominated. Yet the countries you have listed aren't white dominated aside from the US. So I was just wondering how you came to your conclusion. There had too be a reason so was just curious as to why you chose those 3.

As well your other comment's...never really gave a definitive response in too which when has the white man given enough to mend his ancestors sins. And what you think the law should read too fix that. Precisely what the law should read

 

[Erzengel]

I think it's impossible to "guage" the most racist countries.

You hear stories of countries where lighter skinned people are "racist" against darker skinned people in Asian and Hispanic nations.

I found this site however,

https://businesstech.co.za/news/lifestyle/116644/the-most-racist-countries-in-the-world/

Of course...

The findings cover the responses of over 85,000 people from 61 countries between 2014 and 2015.

US isn't listed however.