Discussion: Relations with Russia

[Marvolo]

How so? I thought Biden was supposed to fix the bad economy and provide job opportunities by using his brain and his policies and now you're saying that the only chance to boost the economy and create new jobs is to get into a bloody war with Russia?

War has long been considered an economic booster. New contracts to be had, military hardware to be manufactured, and infrastructure to rebuild. It also can get American corporations into areas they wouldn't otherwise have access too. I doubt the corporations will benefit as much in Ukraine, but they might. I dont expect Ukraine to turn into a full blown war for us, but there could be some contract work to rebuild and resupply if the Ukrainian government remains when all is said and done.

As for Biden, he is trying to rebuild the economy through other means also so I dont see this as an either or situation. And he may not be considering the Ukraine situation as a potential economic boost. Some people around him probably are tho.

And for the record, I never said war was the only way to help our economy. I only said it could boost the economy. How I feel about it or whether I ultimately support this approach depends entirely on what Russia does, and how things turn out.

 

[Sithborg]

I think the past 20 years has proven war is not good for the economy, or at least with the current economy the US has.

 

[Teelie]

War is good for profiteers and they are all that matter apparently.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

Unintended, hmm?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

You'll/we'll never see most of the negotiations.

That's the way it usually goes.

They are trying let Russia save face and relent and go away.

That's why a strong deterrent is necessary from the start.

It can still fail and go to 'B' which is Russia further invades Ukraine more than they already have in the east and Crimea and Ukraine is better equipped than before to mount a defense.

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

 

[CaptainWagner]

So much for thinking we could go JUST ONE FULL YEAR without being embroiled in a war...

Gotta keep them profiteers happy, I guess.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

All of Europe will become Russia if we don’t defend the right to self-determination by Ukraine and our allies. If you don’t defend your friends you‘ll soon find you don’t have any!

 

[Sithborg]

I am also comfortable in saying that 3k troops isn't a meaningful mobilization.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

They are for evacuation assistance and other support reasons.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

WH: Russia sole 'aggressor' in Ukraine situation

Politico.eu - Germany bans Russian broadcaster RT’s German-language channel

France24 - Russia to target German media in response to German ban on RT

New satellite images show buildup of Russian military around Ukraine border - CNN

NL Times - "You have friends," Dutch PM says to Ukrainian counterpart as tension with Russia mounts

Fertilizer Daily - Russia stops the export of ammonium nitrate

Associated Press - Putin accuses US, allies of ignoring Russian security needs

CNBC - Ukraine warns of 'full-scale war' and tragedy in Europe if Russia attacks

• Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelenskyy warned any military confrontation with its neighbor Russia would amount to “a full-scale” war in Europe.
• Russia has amassed troops along its border with Ukraine and within its ally Belarus.
• Ukraine has both played down concerns of a confrontation, and warned of the possible consequences of a conflict on Europe’s doorstep.

Zelensky's worried about the economy of Ukraine falling apart and mass refugees and migration out of the country ahead of any invasion that's why.

 

[chamber-music]

All of Europe will become Russia if we don’t defend the right to self-determination by Ukraine and our allies. If you don’t defend your friends you‘ll soon find you don’t have any!

Yep. No way in bad place Europe would sit back and let Eastern Europe be completely destabilised by a full Russian invasion. The effects would hurt the economy of Europe and create another large mass refugee issue with civilians escaping any war zone.

Russia would have to bomb the bad place out of Western Ukraine to takeover the whole country and it would not be worth the loss of lives or financial cost.

This is mostly Russian posturing. The rest of the world has let Russia know over the last month that a full invasion of the Ukraine is a red line. Ukraine is the modern equivalent to what Poland was for the Nazis in WW2. If Russia make a movie it might trigger a WW3.

 

[patam]

All of Europe will become Russia if we don’t defend the right to self-determination by Ukraine and our allies. If you don’t defend your friends you‘ll soon find you don’t have any!

Fear mongering at its best!

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Reuters - Ukraine to sign deal during Erdogan visit on building drones, Kyiv says

 

[DarthSkywalker]

All of Europe will become Russia if we don’t defend the right to self-determination by Ukraine and our allies. If you don’t defend your friends you‘ll soon find you don’t have any!

This is sensationalism. Which is done to justify such actions, while ignoring what our "our friends" are doing. What we pay for. Genocide and apartheid.

Question. If you believe the WH on Russia, do you believe them on Israel? If you, do you reject the apartheid happening there? And if you don't, how do you square the two?

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Ain't just the White House, it's in nearly every newspaper outside of Russia in the world. Many governments of the world in Europe and elsewhere are involved. Ukraine's been asking for and receiving help for years and this is just the latest in a long line of security help by many countries against Russia's military. Need to 'blame America first' for everything, it is wrong, and is why people hate the far left.

I'd actually welcome the U.S. military or UN or NATO peacekeepers taking over security for the Palestinians but neither the Palestinians nor Israelis would welcome it.

Unfortunately Palestine may not even quality as a democracy anymore which makes things even more difficult when countries want to defend democracies and not authoritarian regimes.

Al Jazeera - Palestinian elections: Democracy for no one

Halting Palestine’s Democratic Decline

Palestine is now an authoritarian regime, according to the Economist’s 2020 democracy index. Its score has declined year on year since 2006, when it was deemed a flawed democracy. Aside from the obvious lack of elections, the executive controls the judiciary, the president effectively suspended the parliament in 2007 and instead rules by decree, and Palestinian authorities have been cracking down on opposition and civil society. Since 2007, the Palestinian leadership has been divided between the internationally recognized government of Abbas and his Fatah party in the West Bank and the de facto Hamas government led by Yahya Sinwar in Gaza.

 

[Holy Slapper]

So much for thinking we could go JUST ONE FULL YEAR without being embroiled in a war...

Gotta keep them profiteers happy, I guess.

It there is a war, it's because of Putin. Not Biden.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Ain't just the White House, it's in nearly every newspaper outside of Russia in the world. Many governments of the world in Europe and elsewhere are involved. Ukraine's been asking for and receiving help for years and this is just the latest in a long line of security help by many countries against Russia's military. Need to 'blame America first' for everything, it is wrong, and is why people hate the far left.

I'd actually welcome the U.S. military or UN or NATO peacekeepers taking over security for the Palestinians but neither the Palestinians nor Israelis would welcome it.

People "hate" the far left, because of propaganda to keep down the majority, in favor of the status quo, that lines the pockets of the elite. You cited CNBC. A right wing source, about two steps from Fox News. You feeding into the pro-war propaganda isn't my fault.

Also, did you just call for more going to the Middle East and playing cop? How about we start at not funding the apartheid, huh?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It there is a war, it's because of Putin. Not Biden.

Any US involvement in any "war" would be down to Biden. Until 2024, when we have Trump again because of shirt like this.

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

It's not just CNBC - no need for CT (conspiracy theories)...

Russia-Ukraine war to result in full-scale war in Europe - Zelensky

"Russians need to hear us, they need to listen and they need to understand that no one needs war. But we aren’t inviting to our land anyone armed. I can say for sure that the nation has changed, society has changed, the Army has changed, there’ve been many different changes. Now there will be no occupation of any city or territory. It will be, unfortunately, a tragedy if a major escalation against our country kicks off. So I say frankly that this won’t be a war between Ukraine and Russia, this will be a war in Europe, a full-scale war. That’s because no one will be giving up on any of its territories and people," Zelensky stressed.

Ukraine is grateful to Great Britain for effective measures to deter Russia - President — Official website of the President of Ukraine

 

[Zarex]

Any US involvement in any "war" would be down to Biden. Until 2024, when we have Trump again because of **** like this.

If we get Trump again its going to because the far left once again played into the hands of their Alt Right chums and renounced the Democratic nominees in favor of a candidate with no chance of getting elected. Then they can smugly point at their "Don't Blame Me! I Voted for Bernie!" T shirt while waiting in line for processing at the local Trump Reeducation Center.

 

[Holy Slapper]

Any US involvement in any "war" would be down to Biden. Until 2024, when we have Trump again because of **** like this.

Sorry but as a European and citizen of a country that the US already failed to support when the Soviet Union tried to invade us AND FAILED, I absolutely want the US to get in it. The EU does not have any joint military units or operations. It's simply not happening. The US simply has to get involved if Russia starts something in Ukraine.

 

[Fosterson]

I am also comfortable in saying that 3k troops isn't a meaningful mobilization.

3,000 troops certainly isn't sufficient to fight the entire Russian army.

 

[Fosterson]

This is sensationalism. Which is done to justify such actions, while ignoring what our "our friends" are doing. What we pay for. Genocide and apartheid.

Ukraine is committing neither genocide nor apartheid.

Question. If you believe the WH on Russia, do you believe them on Israel? If you, do you reject the apartheid happening there? And if you don't, how do you square the two?

The two situations are not remotely comparable. Russia is the clear aggressor in this conflict, as well as being vastly more powerful than Ukraine.

I would turn the question back to you: why do you condemn Israel's illegal annexation and occupation of Palestinian land, but apparently don't see anything wrong with Russia's annexation and occupation of sovereign Ukrainian territory?

I would also point out that its not just the US that has condemned Russia's aggressive policies towards Ukraine. In 2014, a UN Resolution was passed condemning the annexation of Crimea. 100 countries voted in favour of it, and only 11 voted against, including not just Rusia but other bastions of human rights and democracy such as North Korea, Syria and Belarus.

 

[Fosterson]

Sorry but as a European and citizen of a country that the US already failed to support when the Soviet Union tried to invade us AND FAILED, I absolutely want the US to get in it. The EU does not have any joint military units or operations. It's simply not happening. The US simply has to get involved if Russia starts something in Ukraine.

To be fair, there wasn't a whole lot the US could have done to prevent Stalin's invasion of Finland. At that time the US had the 14th biggest army in the world (smaller than Romania's!).