Discussion: Taxes and Taxation

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Malice, Apr 2, 2008.

  1. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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  2. KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    Tax the churches.


    The deal was ALWAYS, ya'll stay out of politics directly and thus the environment is allowed for all denominations and faiths to operate without the need for financially assisting the country.

    Ya'll are breaking the deal so... What are we supposed to do?

    Ya'll literally just can't keep ya mouths shut.
     
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  3. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    So when they say “fair share”, what does that mean exactly? If the billionaires are using the tax code as written and are just taking advantage of tax loopholes as they exist then shouldn’t it be up to Congress to rewrite and close the loopholes or do they want the billionaires to write a check for the amount the politicians think they owe? I just don’t know what Sanders expects when he tweets things like this?
     
  4. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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    I'm thinking pay the taxes they would have had those loopholes not existed or been exploited. Yes we need to rewrite our nation's tax codes to make sure this doesn't happen. A wealth tax would be a quick band aid that would achieve this without doing the arduous part knowing how much beating around the bush Congress is when it comes to such things.
     
  5. JubJub86 Registered

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    Pretty much the whole problem, yeah. Warren Buffet says he took advantage of basically all the tax stuff Trump ever did, and most people would in that position.

    I think most people can get on board with the rich being taxed more, but "who decides what the definition of 'fair' is?", that's a legitimate discussion. Personally I wouldn't trust Bernie to have any say in that whatsoever, we all know how far he'd go with it. They're just going to take their ball and base the company out of Switzerland or whatever instead.

    And it's one thing for billionaires, but these hadrline progressives seem to want to tax people worth like 5m at 50% or whatever. That's not some fatcat, a lot of the time that's just some person who's put in 18 hour days for 30 years and expanded their one restaurant or store or whatever into 5 over decades. There's degrees of this, and most people nationwide aren't going to see eye-to-eye with the Bernie types on it. You've absolutely gotta do something about Google and the other giant conglomerates and their near-nothing tax though, that's a given.
     
  6. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    Is that really fair though? That’s extra money that you’re not really required to pay and I’m sure that if those loopholes exist for the average person, they would take advantage of it as well. Also, are they (the government) going to be transparent about how they’re spending that extra money? I don’t care if you’re a billionaire or a thousandaire, I just don’t believe you should be forced to pay extra if you’re not required to. They need to fix this in Congress. There’s a part in Biden’s tax plan where they want to do away with the back door roth, which I am 100% for. They need to do these type of things through legislation rather than shaming people into paying extra on Twitter.

    EDIT: I just read that the back door Roth loophole still remains in the latest Biden’s Build Back Better plan. That’s a shame.
     
    #332 Prison Mike, Nov 15, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  7. JubJub86 Registered

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    Right. Basically how the system works. You want to alter the tax code, get it through congress. They're the ones who wrote the one people are b*tching about now.

    Yeah, it'd be near-impossible to do, but that's the job, to find a way. Making a career of whineing about it isn't a solution.
     
  8. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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    Okay so these people using their millions to influence the system to keep the system in favor of them and keeping those loopholes in place is a thing. They do want loopholes because they would have to pay money. We saw with Reagan's trickle down theory that most if not all of those tax breaks and money these people got didn't go to their workers or businesses who help them make their wealth and instead was hoarded for themselves. Is it fair to us as taxpayers that these people can game the tax system to avoid paying and to not help their workers.
     
  9. JubJub86 Registered

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    It's not fair, no. Life generally isn't.

    Congress can change it if they get organized and back to a little cross-pollenation between parties. They won't though, and that's on us for voting them in. One big circle from the little man to th richies back to the little man and so on and so forth. Of course it's broken.

    That doesn't change the fact that you don't want the Bernie wing of things setting the tax rate. Their current loopholes might get closed, they're just going to take their stuff elsewhere though and deal with some foreign tax code more amenable instead. By and large, anyway. You're still better off keeping them stateside - that doesn't mean you don't tax them more, it does mean there's a ceiling to how much.
     
  10. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    I agree that trickle down doesn’t work and that we definitely need to do better with the tax code and close the loopholes. Some of these loopholes aren’t just for the ulta rich either (but most of them are). I guess my main point is that any change needs to be done through actual legislation and simply tweeting “the wealthy need to pay their fair share” doesn’t do any good. It’s just a sound bite in tweet form. He doesn’t provide any specifics about how much they need to pay and it just seems like he’s asking billionaires to write a blank check. Why stop at billionaires…why not millionaires or pretty much anyone who makes more than what’s necessary to survive?
     
  11. MagnarTheGreat Web Ninja

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    The top marginal tax rate in the 1950s was at or above 90%. Then it was in the 70% range from the 1960s until Reagan. The Congress & Presidents just keep lowering and lowering it until we are where we are now.
     
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  12. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    Yeah I have no problem with them raising it back up to even 99% if they wanted. Just do it right…through legislation and don’t expect people to willingly pay extra money, when they’re not required to, out of their own free will.
     
  13. JubJub86 Registered

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    It used to be that high, yes. Doesn't make it a good idea. 70% in taxes is pretty insane, individual or corporate alike.

    For comparison, looks like it's about 45% personal in the UK and 57% in Sweden according to google.

    Corporate side of things, apparently the UAE's the highest in the world at 55% (guess they probably mean 'western' - inverted commas - world, you'd figure China or whatever probably take a bigger piece of the pie from their firms).

    That's not saying you don't raise it from where we are now. But throwing it back to 70 like a half-century ago isn't a good idea. Why would these people play ball? Plenty of other countries will have them, and we're still losing more than we gain by seeing them off.
     
    #339 JubJub86, Nov 15, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2021
  14. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    There should be some happy medium where they’re paying their fair share but at the same time not punishing them for success. What would be the point of doing business in the US if you end up paying that much? Whatever they decide, it should definitely be done through legislation (and none of this executive order b.s. either where it would be undone with the next President).
     
  15. Snow Queen 4AF (she/her)

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  16. JubJub86 Registered

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    Again: the world's not fair. It's never going to be. Obviously, yeah, Gates & Bezos are super smart guys but they also were born into the means to make the most of that.

    Gates and Buffett at least have still done more good for the US than they would have had you taxed them at 70% in the 90s and they decided to headquarter their stuff in Canada or England or wherever.

    Mike's right on the happy medium thing, and that you have to get it enshrined through congress so it can't be easily overturned. Smart politicians would be trying to engineer that to be viable, guys like Bernie just sit on the sidelines and preach, knowing most of their own party don't like/want to work with them. Practicality's a thing, if it's not possible/workable you're not doing anything.

    He needs to name a number, and start actually persuading people. The wishy-washy stuff's not going to go anywhere. The reason he doesn't commit that specifically is knowing that he's an outlier with where the country's actually at, and nobody'll back him bar a mere handful of his own party.
     
  17. Sithborg Registered

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    Nah, its actually an popular position.
     
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  18. JubJub86 Registered

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    A majority of the congress is for setting corprate tax rates where Bernie/AOC would want them?

    News to me. If that were actually true, it'd be done. Popular among the public in polling doesn't mean much in terms of getting it into law.
     
  19. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    But what does this prove? That they had a leg up than others? Sure they had some help but they also made their companies into what they are today through their own intelligence. IMO the worst type of people are the ones who inherit billions and live on it without doing anything.
     
  20. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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    Uuuuuummmm.
     
  21. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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    This we have let Washington give trillions TRILLIONS to these people without seeing little to no returns on that investment. People are sick of it and want it back. It would take years for them to rewrite the tax codes. The Dems would have to keep Congress and the White House for possible Three or Four terms before we can get some form of rewrite done and that's not counting the infighting that would happen. The actual chances of a rewrite are almost nonexistent which is why a wealth tax is an easier route and it targets a specific class.
     
  22. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    As far as I can tell those people started and ran their own companies :huh:
     
  23. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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    No I was thinking Trump actually kinda doesn't fall under that. :hehe:
     
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  24. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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