Discussion: Taxes and Taxation

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Malice, Apr 2, 2008.

  1. CaptainWagner I'm A Worrier, It's What I Do (P) (he/him)

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    re: People saying a wealth tax isn't fair

    Look at it this way.

    You see someone on the street begging for money. Someone who is themselves just barely getting by has compassion and gives them 5 bucks. Then Jeff Bezos walks by and also gives them 5 bucks. Is that "fair" because they gave the same amount?

    Or we're building a house for a family in need. We all scrape together what spare supplies we can afford. Then Elon Musk shows up with a few boards and some nails and refuses to bring more than anyone else, because it wouldn't be "fair." So the house doesn't get built. Was Elon right?

    Of course not. Because fairness is proportionate to means.
     
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  2. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    I don’t think anyone here is against a wealth tax. I’m just not sure what proportion is considered “fair”. So far everyone has just been talking vague terms without any real numbers (at least I haven’t seen any). I just want to see something that has concrete numbers and also realistic (at the very least agreed by all Democrats), not some pie in the sky fantasy.
     
  3. Donner Formerly Elektra1 (she/her/hers)

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    Billionaires existing isn't fair to begin with, but at least 70% should be minimum. They'll be able to afford everything they want even with a high tax rate so their complaints are hilariously boring.
     
  4. CaptainWagner I'm A Worrier, It's What I Do (P) (he/him)

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    I can barely figure out my own taxes, much less set tax policy. I'm not going to pretend like I'm qualified to lay out a specific proposal. But there are definitely people on here and in the public sphere AND in the Democratic Party itself who are against the very concept of a wealth tax.

    With our two-party system, we're forced into a "Big Tent." In no sane government should Manchin or even Biden be in the same party as AOC or Markey or Sanders (technically speaking on the last one, obviously). So nothing is ever going to be agreed on by ALL Democrats. We just need leaders who believe in this policy strongly enough to get the conservative Dems into line.
     
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  5. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    I don’t agree with idea that the concept that billionaires shouldn’t exist. I do agree that they should pay their fair share (not sure what that would be). I definitely don’t think there should be cap on how much you could potentially make. If you ban billionaires then why not millionaires or even some hundred thousandaires? How do you deem what’s too rich?
     
  6. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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    Depends on which Senator you're asking,

    Ultra-Millionaire Tax | Elizabeth Warren

    Tax on Extreme Wealth | Bernie Sanders Official Website
     
  7. Snow Queen 4AF (she/her)

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    Billionaires got to where they are on the backs of exploited people, the least they could do is pay some decent ****ing taxes.
     
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  8. Donner Formerly Elektra1 (she/her/hers)

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    They get away with paying people a wage that isn't livable so I definitely think there should be a salary cap. Just use the same metrics as they do to justify paying someone who works at McDonald's $7.50 an hour. Or enact a maximum wage gap between the top money makers and the lowest paid employee. People with billions can influence government and that should never be a thing.
     
  9. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    As long as people make more than what is necessary to survive, there will always be someone who can influence the government. If billionaires didn’t exist, then it would be the millionaires. Regarding the McDonalds example, the most practical solution would be to just raise the minimum wage to a livable wage. The more long term solution would be to better educate people so they wouldn’t need to work at McDonalds to survive in the first place.
     
  10. Donner Formerly Elektra1 (she/her/hers)

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    So McDonald's won't have workers anymore? Or are you expecting teenagers to take over that mantle permanently? You sound like the type that would vote against subsidies for university so where exactly are all these people going to find the money to go to school so they can "better educate" themselves?

    Billionaires aren't required for a society to function. Your premise that if billionaires are gone then millionaires would fill the void doesn't really make sense. At some point, the influence would lessen to the point that it doesn't exist anymore. That should be the point we strive for.
     
    #360 Donner, Nov 15, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
  11. KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    As the Hype's designated touchy ******* can I say...


    Ease down... Mike is bringing up some points that are thoroughly practical. Mike's not advocating eating babies or exempting Billionaires from the law.

    Whatever "type" Mike is they're obviously a working stiff like the rest of us. He's not an active enemy of the people he just has some questions on how any kind of Progressive Policy gets implemented and what the real world consequences may or may not be.
     
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  12. JubJub86 Registered

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    Who decides that though? Congress.

    We're not electing people who want to change it. At a certain point you've gotta stop blaming the politicians, they're only representing the people electing them. If this became a sole-voting-issue and people were actually demanding it, with repercussions, it might change. It's not, so evidently the people don't want it badly enough. Polls alone don't mean jack, when they're not backed up with practical action.

    As for "liveable wages", that's tricky too. Raising the minimum more than a few bucks is fine for the big corporations, but there's a cost there too with the little mom & pop operations not being able to afford it and thus hiring less people. Regading McDonalds specifically, much as people don't want to hear it - no, you're not supposed to be able to raise a family on a burger-flipping job. If you're still there at 30 or whatever, at a certain point that's on you - nightschools are near-on free, you can get qualifications in something or other and not be forced to be making 11 bucks an hour or whatever. No matter where you started in life. College isn't required for that, an absolute ****-ton of people make good money without it.

    We should raise the wage, but let's not go down this "20 bucks an hour stacking shelves at WalMart" route, it's beyond impractical and it takes any responsibility off the person in the position they're in. Again, no, a McDonald's gig isn't designed for you to pay off a mortgage and put savings away for your kid's college education. 15-16 bucks is about right, tops.
     
  13. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    Investing in education should be our number one priority. I’m all for free college. I think there were plans or proposals for free public college or community college. I think that will help a long away. When I was in high school, I did work at a movie theater part time so I can save up for college and when I was in college, I worked part time at a fast food place to earn some money on side to help with tuition. However, those type of jobs were never meant to be a “career”. They’re not designed for you to work two or three of them for you to live off of.

    And no…I wouldn’t vote against subsidies for universities. I’m not the bad guy but these type of posts make it difficult to have any kind of useful discussion.
     
  14. CaptainWagner I'm A Worrier, It's What I Do (P) (he/him)

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    This is just patently untrue. If the politicians WERE representing the people electing them, we'd have a higher minimum wage, legalized marijuana, drug pricing control - all extremely popular issues with voters across the board. But instead we have politicians who run on this platform and then do nothing about it when they get elected.

    A "livable wage" is TRICKY? The minimum wage has ALWAYS been meant to be a livable wage. That's the entire reason it was created. This isn't even debatable:

    “In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.

    “By business I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.”
    - Franklin Delano Roosevelt

    It's mind-boggling how we're still obsessively arguing these issues through the frame & talking points of Reaganomics 40 years later.
     
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  15. JubJub86 Registered

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    Bull****, that's pure revisionism. Nobody working a McDonalds gig at 30 years old in the 60s or 70s was paying the bills on a mortgage and raising kids (managers are different, obviously, but they make a living wage now too).

    You quote Roosevelt, and that's the star-on-the-shining-hill thing we were supposedly aiming for. It's never been the reality. You're still at McDonalds at 23/24, and you haven't been pursuing qualifications at the same time, you haven't been meeting your obligations of climbing the ladder. It's really that simple.

    And no, paying people younger than that 20 bucks an hour isn't reasonable either.
     
  16. Donner Formerly Elektra1 (she/her/hers)

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    Fair enough, my apologies for making an unfair assumption.

    Is McDonald's just meant to be a job for teenagers? Tellers make more but their job isn't more difficult.

    I don't know how you can decide what jobs are meant to be lived off of and what jobs aren't.
     
    #366 Donner, Nov 16, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
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  17. CaptainWagner I'm A Worrier, It's What I Do (P) (he/him)

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    Revisionism? That's literally a first-hand source explicitly stating the purpose behind creating a minimum wage. And it absolutely was possibly to survive on it for many years, that's one of the primary drivers for the Golden Age of the American Middle Class. The minute we STOPPED treating the minimum wage like a livable wage, the Middle Class started dying out.

    Now, let's look at this weird bootstraps fixation on McDonalds. Firstly, how exactly is someone supposed to be "pursuing qualifications" when they're also having to work multiple jobs just to survive? And your disdain for paying young people would be more reasonable if, you know, the cost of higher education hadn't ballooned wildly out of control and now leaves most students burdened with crippling debt they may never pay off. But they don't have a choice but to take it on, because no one paying a livable wage will take a second look at someone without a degree working at McDonalds to scrape by.
     
    #367 CaptainWagner, Nov 16, 2021
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2021
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  18. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    This is why I would be all for free public college/free community college/trade school. Nobody wants to be stuck working 3 dead end jobs, making a livable wage (which is just enough to pay bills, not necessarily be comfortable). I agree with raising the minimum wage but it would only be a temporary solution. Making education affordable is the key. It’s the only way to get out of that rut of working 3 jobs to make ends meet.
     
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  19. Donner Formerly Elektra1 (she/her/hers)

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    Why not add universities into that as well?

    You have to factor in time as well. Just because someone can afford to go to college doesn't mean they have the time to. A full course load doesn't leave time for working. But again this circles back to why society has deemed some jobs to not be worth a livable wage.
     
  20. Prison Mike Don't drop the soap!

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    Do you mean private universities? I don’t think they need to be free. But the public colleges that are funded by the state should be as well as community colleges.
     
  21. CaptainWagner I'm A Worrier, It's What I Do (P) (he/him)

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    We can definitely agree on this.

    As for the minimum wage, it's necessary to not just set another arbitrary number as a rut to get stuck in all over again in the future. We have to at the very least create a proportional system to automatically increase it in relation to the value of the dollar. This, coupled with free tuition at state schools & implementing tighter regulations on the rental/housing market would go a long way to course correction.

    That and, of course, rebuilding our unions and enshrining workers' rights.
     
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  22. KRYPTON INC. Incorporated Kryptonian

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    Ax...

    You're all kinds of off base here.
     
  23. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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  24. CaptainWagner I'm A Worrier, It's What I Do (P) (he/him)

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    Teelie and Lily Adler like this.
  25. Lily Adler Politically Delicious (P) (she/her/hers)

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    He's amassing a fanbase and possible cult following.
     

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