Discussion: The Economy, Fiscal Cliff, National Debt, And Other Financial Issues III

[moraldeficiency]

LOL, it is so amazing to me how the talk still revolves around taxes, which IS NOT THE PROBLEM....but ok....keep that as the main talk, the administration definitely loves that. Lets forget how much our government keeps spending, and not look at "in reality" how little what people keep talking about will actually do to fix the deficit. But by all means, keep up the talking points...

We've spoken about increasing taxes along with ways to cut overrun gov. spending and how to stay out of future messes if you've been looking. Rather than complaining about how people are talking about things why don't you toss in your own thoughts?

What programs need to be overhauled, abandoned? Are there any taxes that make sense? What about writeoffs and deductions?

Because here's what I'm seeing. One side just seems to think more taxes are the answer while the other seems to just say less taxes fix everything. It is sort of annoying I agree. I've tried to speak about both which I think is a more reasonable answer, but again I ask what are your thoughts?

I'm not trying to be glib, I'd really like a dialogue about this without soundbites and gotcha question and answer periods. Rather than just calling the other side a naive fool I'd love to hear people from both sides that think the other may have a point and that they also might have to give up some of the things they love to fix this mess. Congress can't do that but I'd like to think comic fans are more a more reasonable bunch.

 

[Kelly]

We've spoken about increasing taxes along with ways to cut overrun gov. spending and how to stay out of future messes if you've been looking. Rather than complaining about how people are talking about things why don't you toss in your own thoughts?

What programs need to be overhauled, abandoned? Are there any taxes that make sense? What about writeoffs and deductions?

Because here's what I'm seeing. One side just seems to think more taxes are the answer while the other seems to just say less taxes fix everything. It is sort of annoying I agree. I've tried to speak about both which I think is a more reasonable answer, but again I ask what are your thoughts?

I'm not trying to be glib, I'd really like a dialogue about this without soundbites and gotcha question and answer periods. Rather than just calling the other side a naive fool I'd love to hear people from both sides that think the other may have a point and that they also might have to give up some of the things they love to fix this mess. Congress can't do that but I'd like to think comic fans are more a more reasonable bunch.

oooooh noooooo....I've given my thoughts several times around here, and they haven't changed....

I have stated many times that we should go back to the tax rate of the Clinton years and I WANT TO CUT at least 20% across the board, but would compromise at 10%....and I mean across the board....EVERYONE. My dream would be 25%. IMO, if leaders of these agencies cannot figure out a way to make up 20% of their cost to overcome these cuts, they have no business being in leadership at that level. The budget of schools across the country have had FAR MORE THAN 25% of their budgets cut, and they have figured out ways to make it.....other government agencies can do the same, hell start by cutting out those agencies that simply do what other agencies are supposed to be doing. The excess is mind boggling.

 

[moraldeficiency]

oooooh noooooo....I've given my thoughts several times around here, and they haven't changed....

I have stated many times that we should go back to the tax rate of the Clinton years and I WANT TO CUT at least 20% across the board, but would compromise at 10%....and I mean across the board....EVERYONE. My dream would be 25%. IMO, if leaders of these agencies cannot figure out a way to make up 20% of their cost to overcome these cuts, they have no business being in leadership at that level.

20% across the board for all gov. spending? That's interesting. Seems like a fair compromise on the issue. I agree about the tax rate.

What about ways to avoid the recession that we got ourselves in? Should banks be regulated more. Should glass-spiegal (I'm sure I'm spelling that wrong) be reinstated? What about the housing market?

 

[wiegeabo]

I'd be surprised if cutting out inefficiencies only cut out 20% of government spending. I'd expect at least 25%.

And take care of most of the fraud, and probably knock off another 10%-15%.

And how about harsher penalties/fines for such fraud.

And harsher fines for companies breaking the laws/regulations.

And maybe actually prosecuting these companies (there's been a criminal lack of prosecution over the last two administrations)

Here's another idea. Government agencies like the FTC only (or primarily) get funded by fines. There's an incentive to go after violators hard.

 

[wiegeabo]

20% across the board for all gov. spending? That's interesting. Seems like a fair compromise on the issue. I agree about the tax rate.

What about ways to avoid the recession that we got ourselves in? Should banks be regulated more. Should glass-spiegal (I'm sure I'm spelling that wrong) be reinstated? What about the housing market?

Requiring transparency would help to at least reduce a lot of these problems. (Of course, it would also help if the media actually reported on news rather than hype.)

Glass–Steagall looks to be one regulation that actually worked.

 

[Kelly]

20% across the board for all gov. spending? That's interesting. Seems like a fair compromise on the issue. I agree about the tax rate.

What about ways to avoid the recession that we got ourselves in? Should banks be regulated more. Should glass-spiegal (I'm sure I'm spelling that wrong) be reinstated? What about the housing market?

Yes, across the board.....

I tend to take a Classical approach to changes in the economy. Go one step at a time, reinstate the Clinton Tax rates, 20% across the board cuts....and let the economy take hold of those things. If the housing is still sluggish, then look at ways to NOT INFLATE THE balloon again, but simply allow banks to NOT HOLD SO STRONG TO THEIR LENDING....right now it is ridiculous, hell no one can get a loan. It is hard for me to really look at housing, because here in Houston, the housing market is booming, and part of that reason is there are less regulations on businesses here, and they are moving here like crazy, which brings in people looking for jobs, etc.....

 

[Paradoxium]

Eliminate charitable, state and home mortgage deductions. The carried interest loophole should also be eliminated. See how many of the rich tax-me-plz boosters can stomach a hike on top of that.

 

[Kelly]

I don't understand eliminating something that costs us 50 billion a year in tax deductions, but generates 300 billion in money given to charities....so for every $1 spent, $6 dollars is given....

Hell, that's the best thing working in Washington today....

 

[Paradoxium]

I don't understand eliminating something that costs us 50 billion a year in tax deductions, but generates 300 billion in money given to charities.... so for every $1 spent, $6 dollars is given....

So Washington can shore up their pensions and spend more money. t:

 

[Paradoxium]

It would drive home the point of displacing and destroying capital.

 

[dnno1]

oooooh noooooo....I've given my thoughts several times around here, and they haven't changed....

I have stated many times that we should go back to the tax rate of the Clinton years and I WANT TO CUT at least 20% across the board, but would compromise at 10%....and I mean across the board....EVERYONE. My dream would be 25%. IMO, if leaders of these agencies cannot figure out a way to make up 20% of their cost to overcome these cuts, they have no business being in leadership at that level. The budget of schools across the country have had FAR MORE THAN 25% of their budgets cut, and they have figured out ways to make it.....other government agencies can do the same, hell start by cutting out those agencies that simply do what other agencies are supposed to be doing. The excess is mind boggling.

I don't really think we need to do all that. I think we should just focus on working towards full employment. Something that a lot of us don't realize is that the debt we owe does not have to be paid all at once. Outside of the T-bill, which has maturity dates between 28 to 364 days, we don't have to pay back a lot of that debt for decades. Furthermore, unlike Greece or Argentina, we run a fiat currency system, which means that we can print our own money at will if we need to pay back our debts. It has already been proven that there are means where we can increase our monetary supply without experiencing significant inflation, so as long as you have smart people working at the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve, we could in essence inflate our way out of our debt such that this so called crisis is just a old fish tale. At least if we work on creating jobs we can generate more revenue such that we don't have to raise taxes so much just to cover our short term commitments. In the future, we should not be fighting wars or building military hardware with out a pay-for, and we definitely should be lowering taxes in the middle of a war.

 

[Kelly]

I don't really think we need to do all that. I think we should just focus on working towards full employment. Something that a lot of us don't realize is that the debt we owe does not have to be paid all at once. Outside of the T-bill, which has maturity dates between 28 to 364 days, we don't have to pay back a lot of that debt for decades. Furthermore, unlike Greece or Argentina, we run a fiat currency system, which means that we can print our own money at will if we need to pay back our debts. It has already been proven that there are means where we can increase our monetary supply without experiencing significant inflation, so as long as you have smart people working at the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve, we could in essence inflate our way out of our debt such that this so called crisis is just a old fish tale. At least if we work on creating jobs we can generate more revenue such that we don't have to raise taxes so much just to cover our short term commitments. In the future, we should not be fighting wars or building military hardware with out a pay-for, and we definitely should be lowering taxes in the middle of a war.

Yep.....why pay our bills....

 

[The Question]

Anyone see this?

http://www.salon.com/2012/12/12/7_absurd_ways_the_military_wastes_taxpayer_dollars/

 

[dnno1]

Yep.....why pay our bills....

Like I said before, we don't have to pay it all right now (I never said that we don't have to pay it at all). A lot of it we don't have to pay for another 30 years or so. What we should be doing is focusing on getting the money to pay it by then. Lowering revenue and cutting spending by the same amount is not going to get there. Remember, we have a fiat currency system so we can never become insolvent if we don't want to. Even Alan Greenspan admitted to that back in 1997 (see the first paragraph on page 2). Since we have a lot of time, if we focus on getting our economy to create jobs here in the United States, we can increase our revenue base (and maybe not have to raise taxes at all). If all else failed we (responsibly over time) could just expand our money supply and make our debt look like an afterthought.

 

[dnno1]

Well it seems like negotiations have failed and the Speaker had proposed a "Plan B" (not the contraceptive). Even that has fallen through and the House has broken for recess.


How Boehner’s Plan B for the ‘fiscal cliff’ began and fell apart

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...9ecddc-4aeb-11e2-a6a6-aabac85e8036_story.html

 

[Fading]

I'm starting to think we will go over the cliff, curb, whatever you want to call it. At first I thought they were just going to wait until the last second like always. Boehner turned down all of the president's proposals, and gave a joke proposal in return. Now he turns to "PLAN B" (cue dramatic music, /da da daaaaa), and the tea party members won't even vote on it.

Boehner has lost all control, and no longer has the power to reign in his members. This group cannot get out fast enough in 2014, I don't care if Dems, or new, more responsible Reps take over. They have filibustered more times under Obama by far than in any other time in history, have voted against their own bills, and now won't even vote on a Republican created plan to keep everyone's taxes from going up in a week (which is their golden cow).

The tea party Republicans under Boehner don't care anymore. They used to just be obstructionists against Democrats, anything Democrat created was blocked, no matter the reason. Now they're blocking their own party. They really are useless. Not that I ever did, but it's so hard to take anything tea party related seriously anymore, they just need to go away. They remind me of a 5 year old standing there saying no to everything, throwing a tantrum in the middle of the store to get attention. Then you ask them if they want candy, and out of stubborness they still shout out "NO!"

 

[Fading]

Well it seems like negotiations have failed and the Speaker had proposed a "Plan B" (not the contraceptive). Even that has fallen through and the House has broken for recess.


How Boehner’s Plan B for the ‘fiscal cliff’ began and fell apart

http://www.washingtonpost.com/polit...9ecddc-4aeb-11e2-a6a6-aabac85e8036_story.html

The last bit kinda confirms what I heard. Where it said, "Kelly ran to the microphone, and said, "Really? We can't support our speaker?"". I read that the meeting turned into a lot of yelling, and arguing, and everyone left angry. It's gotten to the point that not only can they not vote on their own plan, they can't even have a civil debate with their own party without tearing into eachother.

I like the balance, I don't want Dems to hold every position of power, but the tea party Reps are beyond useless. I'd be fine in 2014 if some level headed, more moderate Reps took Dem seats, and then Dems took aways the tea party seats, with the numbers staying as they are. Not that that'll ever happen.

 

[Destructus86]

You know...I think we've dug such a big pit that neither side will really be able to get us out of it. We've finally reached that point where our nations debt and financial situation as a whole has become too large to fix.

 

[Destructus86]

Anyone ever play Jenga? Our economy is a lot like that. We take blocks from the bottom or the middle and just keep doing that, even though we know it's a risk and we know we can't afford to take those pieces at the bottom....but we do it anyway because we just want more. Until finally, the foundation can no longer handle the straight of the weight we've put on it and it crashes.

 

[hippie_hunter]

You know, the more I think about it, the more of a horrible Majority Leader Harry Reid is.

 

[Marx]

I was just reading about Reid's latest comments saying that (more and more) he believes that we will go over the cliff. The sheer incompetence of these politicians never ceases to amaze me.

 

[hippie_hunter]

And it's not like Reid is doing anything asides from shooting down any GOP ideas, and then he has the gall to give them all of the blame when the blame should go to both the GOP and Democrats.

 

[Marx]

Oh, there's definitely plenty of blame to go around.

 

[dnno1]

And it's not like Reid is doing anything asides from shooting down any GOP ideas, and then he has the gall to give them all of the blame when the blame should go to both the GOP and Democrats.

The Senate already passed a bill and they are waiting on the House. The blame does go on Boehner and Co.

 

[Venom'sDad]

You know, the more I think about it, the more of a horrible Majority Leader Harry Reid is.

Wow...you just arriving at that realization.