Discussion: The Second Amendment V

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In fact, we haven't had a head of the ATF since 2006, when the Senate decided they had to confirm any appointments to the position. And yet, guess what they haven't done. They won't even have confirmation hearings.

No chance in hell an ATF person gets confirmed with this Senate, basically anybody who gets appointed will just be fillibustered and not make it when he has 55 votes saying he should be confirmed(Democracy at it's best)
 

So the only countries that have a higher rate of gun violence than the United States are third world countries where most of the population lives in poverty, the government is unstable, and crime syndicates and militant political organizations regularly duke it out in or near urban areas. Whereas countries with comparable levels of poverty, stability in government, and effectiveness of law enforcement in combating crime to the United States that also have greater restrictions on the sale and ownership of firearms have lower rates of gun violence.

I feel like that more proves my point than yours.
 
It goes to proving the point that it's not the guns, it's the environment.
 
It goes to proving the point that it's not the guns, it's the environment.

But I think guns are a part of the environment. Guns influence the environment just as much as they are influenced by it. Like I said, countries with tougher gun laws that are otherwise comparable to the United States in terms of poverty and crime rate have far fewer gun related assaults.

I think it also makes it pretty clear that having lots of guns easily available does not act as a deterrent for gun violence, as has been claimed.

Also, Egypt was on that list of countries with a lower rate of gun violence than the United States. To everyone who argues that we need lax or non-existence gun control so that the populous can be armed in the event that we need to fight against a tyrannical government:

Egypt has incredibly strict gun laws and they managed to overthrow their government (which was significantly more draconian than ours ever has been) just fine.
 
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The relationship between gun laws and gun crime cited between countries isn't universal though. Look at the differences here in the States: California has the toughest gun laws, yet the most gun-related deaths. Texas has the most lax gun laws, yet is well behind California in gun-related death. In fact the total number of deaths (gun or not) in Texas is less than solely gun-related death in California. And that's taking population differences into account. The fact is, on average, states with stricter gun laws have more gun crime.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...-that-gun-control-advocates-dont-want-to-see/
 
I don't think it's an issue about the number of laws, but quality. You can have 100's of nonsense laws, that do nothing to solve the core problem. Which, as you guys are saying, environment plays a part in as well. If you're becoming mentally unstable, and the ppl around you aren't helping you, and you snap, a lot of gun laws have nothing to do with stopping you from grabbing your fathers poorly protected gun out of his dresser (at least not until after the fact). That's not to say that there shouldn't be laws, or an unreasonable amount of oppressive ones, or better ones in places with higher gun violence. It's just not always a case of numbers.
 
The relationship between gun laws and gun crime cited between countries isn't universal though. Look at the differences here in the States: California has the toughest gun laws, yet the most gun-related deaths. Texas has the most lax gun laws, yet is well behind California in gun-related death. In fact the total number of deaths (gun or not) in Texas is less than solely gun-related death in California. And that's taking population differences into account. The fact is, on average, states with stricter gun laws have more gun crime.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...-that-gun-control-advocates-dont-want-to-see/

Except that's not true. Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Hawaii, Florida, and Connecticut all have much stricter gun laws than Texas and also have much lower rates of gun violence than Texas. In fact, Massachusetts, which is second only to California in the strictness of it's gun laws, also has the fourth lowest rate of gun violence in the country.

This doesn't prove that states with tougher gun control have more gun violence, because that's not strictly true. It proves that most people who count these things don't factor other things that exacerbate violent crime, namely poverty. California has, in L.A., one of the poorest ethnic communities in the country, and that's going to screw with the numbers, just like the drug cartels and civil wars in South America give them bigger numbers than the U.S. California doesn't have an incredibly high rate of gun violence because it has strict gun laws. It has a high rate of gun violence because it has south central L.A.


EDIT: I just want to clarify, my qualifying the more crime ridden parts of L.A. as poor ethnic communities was not to imply that people of color are more prone to violence, but acknowledging that communities of color plagues by poverty and burdened by both passive apathetic bigotry and aggressive violent bigotry from the authorities tend to also suffer from higher violent crime rates as any community would with enough desperate and frustrated people.
 
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But I think guns are a part of the environment. Guns influence the environment just as much as they are influenced by it.
I’m not sure I fully agree with this. I think it is a far more accurate statement that the environment influences the use of guns, and that guns influence the outcome of that environment’s use.

Also, Egypt was on that list of countries with a lower rate of gun violence than the United States. To everyone who argues that we need lax or non-existence gun control so that the populous can be armed in the event that we need to fight against a tyrannical government:

Egypt has incredibly strict gun laws and they managed to overthrow their government (which was significantly more draconian than ours ever has been) just fine.
I’m sorry…what?

First and foremost, there is an ocean of difference between needing a means to protect yourself from a direct physical attack, and a government being overthrown through violent protest and insider scheming.

Secondly, the fact that you would even think to use Egypt as a moral compass for pacifistic revolution shows that you actually have no idea what happened in Egypt – it seems as if you merely glanced at some headlines and called it a day. The revolution in Egypt was anything but peaceful: 6000 injured, nearly 1000 killed due to rioting, not attacks from military or police – they were there to save face and little else (police even helped start riots and looting). The overthrow was instigated by the Muslim Brotherhood, a political group in the Middle East with terroristic ties and tendencies. The Egyptian “revolution” (though it appeared so on the surface) was not about a populace trying to free itself from a dictatorship; it was about a widely popular and influential terrorist political group infiltrating the government and igniting long gestating civil unrest in order to take control of the old dictatorship.
 
I’m not sure I fully agree with this. I think it is a far more accurate statement that the environment influences the use of guns, and that guns influence the outcome of that environment’s use.

The difference between this statement and what I said is unclear to me. Could you please elaborate?

I’m sorry…what?

First and foremost, there is an ocean of difference between needing a means to protect yourself from a direct physical attack, and a government being overthrown through violent protest and insider scheming.

A very common argument in against gun control is that we need lax gun control to be prepared in the event that there's ever a need to overthrow a tyrannical government. In arguing against that particular notion, I gave an example of a successful government overthrow in a country that had incredibly strict gun control laws and where most people do not own guns. I was not, in that particular instance, commenting on the use of guns for day-to-day self defense.

Secondly, the fact that you would even think to use Egypt as a moral compass for pacifistic revolution shows that you actually have no idea what happened in Egypt – it seems as if you merely glanced at some headlines and called it a day. The revolution in Egypt was anything but peaceful: 6000 injured, nearly 1000 killed due to rioting, not attacks from military or police – they were there to save face and little else (police even helped start riots and looting). The overthrow was instigated by the Muslim Brotherhood, a political group in the Middle East with terroristic ties and tendencies. The Egyptian “revolution” (though it appeared so on the surface) was not about a populace trying to free itself from a dictatorship; it was about a widely popular and influential terrorist political group infiltrating the government and igniting long gestating civil unrest in order to take control of the old dictatorship.

Well, that would be a problem if I, at any point, tried to use the revolution in egypt as a moral compass for pacifistic revolution. But I didn't do that. The only thing I said is that they managed to pull it off even though their country had incredibly strict gun laws in place.
 
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Except that's not true. Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Hawaii, Florida, and Connecticut all have much stricter gun laws than Texas and also have much lower rates of gun violence than Texas. In fact, Massachusetts, which is second only to California in the strictness of it's gun laws, also has the fourth lowest rate of gun violence in the country.

It proves that your stance that stricter gun laws means less gun crime is not correct.

I already mentioned California and Texas, but here's a couple more examples...as of 2011:

*New York has some of the most strict gun laws in the country, yet is in the top ten in most gun deaths with a rate of 4.12 per 100,000.

*North Dakota has substantially looser gun laws, yet has one of the lowest gun death rates at 0.93 per 100,000.

*Vermont, another state known for loose gun laws, also has a much lower rate gun crime in comparison to many states with stricter gun laws (0.75 people per 100,000).

*DC is also one of the strictest locations in the country yet it tops the list of gun death rates with 12.46 per 100,000.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ates-show-scant-linkage-to-gun-laws/?page=all

Massachusetts, which is second only to California in the strictness of it's gun laws, also has the fourth lowest rate of gun violence in the country.

No it doesn't. As of 2011, (the most recent confirmed numbers by the FBI - they're still compiling data for 2012), it was ranked 18th, with 2.02 gun-related deaths per 100,000. In 2010, it had a rate of 1.8 per 100,000, so it's actually gotten worse. (Note: the most accurate measurement is the ratio per 100,000 people, as simply going by the total number killed is an inaccurate system due to population differences).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

This doesn't prove that states with tougher gun control have more gun violence, because that's not strictly true.

In all seriousness, without any hyperbole, gun laws - regardless of their level of severity are not a valid way to gauge the stem of gun crime, otherwise all states with lax laws would have the worst gun death ratio, and all states with strict gun laws would have the best. But the cold, hard, FBI-released data says otherwise - that gun laws don't really matter one way or the other, and yet people like you still cling to the disproved notion that stricter gun laws are the answer to less gun crime, despite the fact that we see time and time again that a large ratio of states will strict gun control have a higher rate of gun deaths.

It proves that most people who count these things don't factor other things that exacerbate violent crime, namely poverty. California has, in L.A., one of the poorest ethnic communities in the country, and that's going to screw with the numbers, just like the drug cartels and civil wars in South America give them bigger numbers than the U.S. California doesn't have an incredibly high rate of gun violence because it has strict gun laws. It has a high rate of gun violence because it has south central L.A.

This is laughably, laughably bad. Gun control laws are meant to try and stop gun crime, regardless of ethnicity, location, economy, etc. Period. California has some of the strictest laws, yet these laws obviously have not done their job. Washington DC has the highest rate of gun deaths per 100,000. What's your excuse for discounting the facts there? The Chesapeake Crab Cartel wars?
 
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A very common argument in against gun control is that we need lax gun control to be prepared in the event that there's ever a need to overthrow a tyrannical government. In arguing against that particular notion, I gave an example of a successful government overthrow in a country that had incredibly strict gun control laws and where most people do not own guns. I was not, in that particular instance, commenting on the use of guns for day-to-day self defense.

Neither was I. You are misunderstanding the meaning behind the argument. It's not about needing guns to violently overthrow a government you don't like - it's about protecting yourself from the violence of a tyrannical government. They're two different things. Of course, overthrowing a government could actually turn into a violent confrontation with an armed government defender, in which case, yes, the revolutionaries would need weapons to combat the government's own use of them.


Well, that would be a problem if I, at any point, tried to use the revolution in egypt as a moral compass for pacifistic revolution. But I didn't do that. The only thing I said is that they managed to pull it off even though their country had incredibly strict gun laws in place.

Like I mentioned above and earlier, the Egypt situation was not one where guns were needed to overthrow the government because there was no army to fight against. Had Egypt actually used it's military to combat the rioting, the rioters would have been stopped in their tracks because of the gun laws. But Egypt did not mount an assault against it's citizens, hence, no guns needed (of course, one could argue that had guns been allowed, 1000 dead might have been able to protect themselves from the crazed masses and roving gangs). It also doesn't hurt an revolution when the government you're trying to over throw is systematically dismantled from the inside by a terrorist network.

By your logic, because the Egyptian government was overthrown despite strict gun laws (and despite the reality of the machinations behind the revolt, apparently), then that means every country can as well, regardless of the situation. Colonial Americans in the 1770s must seem like a disgustingly depraved, murderous bunch of people to you then; all they had to do was call up England and say "adios".
 
It proves that your stance that stricter gun laws means less gun crime is not correct.

That's not my stance. My stance is that stricter gun laws mean less gun crime when all other things are equal. California has a higher rate of gun violence than Texas, but it also has a higher overall crime rate. Of course there will be more gun crimes there because there are more crimes there in general. Comparing the effectiveness of gun laws only works when you're comparing two places that are roughly equal in terms of urban poverty and overall crime rate.

I already mentioned California and Texas, but here's some more examples...as of 2011:

[*]New York has some of the most strict gun laws in the country, yet is in the top ten in most gun deaths with a rate of 4.12 per 100,000.
[*]North Dakota has substantially looser gun laws, yet has one of the lowest gun death rates at 0.93 per 100,000.
[*]Vermont, another state known for loose gun laws, also has a much lower rate gun crime in comparison to many states with stricter gun laws (0.75 people per 100,000).
[*]DC is also one of the strictest locations in the country yet it tops the list of gun death rates with 12.46 per 100,000.

Half of New York state's population lives in new York city, the largest and most densely populated city in the country. Large densely populated cities have overall larger crime rates. This skews the statistic. Washington DC is an urban area with enormous poverty and racial strife. These things increase the overall violent crime rate, this skews the statistic. Vermont and North Dakota are largely rural areas without any cities as large or populated as New York or DC, and thus will have an overall lower violent crime rate. This skews the statistic.

No it doesn't. As of 2011, (the most recent confirmed numbers by the FBI - they're still compiling data for 2012), it was ranked 18th, with 2.02 gun-related deaths per 100,000. In 2010, it had a rate of 1.8 per 100,000, so it's actually gotten worse.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States_by_state

Those two sets of statistics contradict one another. The wikipedia one says that, in 2010, gun homicides made up 12.6% of homicides in Massachusetts. The Guardian one says that they made up 65% of homicides in that state in 2011, but there was only a 3% change between those two years.

Also, neither of them chart the rates of gun violence in states over a period of several years for individual states. An anomalous year might not reflect the overall trend in specific states.

In all seriousness, without any hyperbole, gun laws - regardless of their level of severity are not a valid way to gauge the stem of gun crime, otherwise all states with lax laws would have the worst gun death ratio, and all states with strict gun laws would have the best. But the cold, hard, FBI-released data says otherwise - that gun laws don't really matter one way or the other, and yet people like you still cling to the disproved notion that stricter gun laws are the answer to less gun crime, despite the fact that we see time and time again that a large ratio of states will strict gun control have a higher rate of gun deaths.

That's not true. There are other factors that contribute to violent crime. A largely rural state with little urban poverty will have a lower rate of gun violence than a state with huge urban centers and an enormous amount of urban poverty regardless of gun laws because those states will have lower violent crime rates overall. But you can't accurately compare the effectiveness of different gun laws in different states when the other factors that contribute to violent crime are different in those states. At least, you can't without taking those differences into account.

Really, the question shouldn't be how to these states compare. It should be "would California's rate of gun deaths be lower or higher with less strict gun laws, and would Texas' be lower or higher with more strict gun laws?"

This is laughably, laughably bad. Gun control laws are meant to try and stop gun crime, regardless of ethnicity, location, economy, etc. Period.

So you're saying those things don't contribute to the violent crime rate?

California has some of the strictest laws, yet these laws obviously have not done their job. Washington DC has the highest rate of gun deaths per 100,000. What's your excuse for discounting the facts there? The Chesapeake Crab Cartel wars?

Washington DC is incredibly impoverished and has one of the highest overall crime rates in the country.
 
Neither was I. You are misunderstanding the meaning behind the argument. It's not about needing guns to violently overthrow a government you don't like - it's about protecting yourself from the violence of a tyrannical government. They're two different things. Of course, overthrowing a government could actually turn into a violent confrontation with an armed government defender, in which case, yes, the revolutionaries would need weapons to combat the government's own use of them.

Okay. Easy access to weapons doesn't protect people from the violence of a tyrannical government, though. The Black Panther Party stockpiled weapons like nobody's business and the FBI still beat and assassinated their membership as well as framing their leaders for crimes. There are countless stories of police brutality that weren't stopped by the fact that it's easy to get your hands on a gun in this country.


Like I mentioned above and earlier, the Egypt situation was not one where guns were needed to overthrow the government because there was no army to fight against. Had Egypt actually used it's military to combat the rioting, the rioters would have been stopped in their tracks because of the gun laws. But Egypt did not mount an assault against it's citizens, hence, no guns needed (of course, one could argue that had guns been allowed, 1000 dead might have been able to protect themselves from the crazed masses and roving gangs). It also doesn't hurt an revolution when the government you're trying to over throw is systematically dismantled from the inside by a terrorist network.

The government didn't mount on assault on the people? The police were beating people in the streets. They had snipers of rooftops taking people out. What would you call that?

Of course, you're right, the military didn't get involved in the crackdown, and if they had it is very likely that the protestors would have been squashed. But I disagree with the notion that, in such a scenario, had there been more protestors that were armed, the Egyptian people would have been able to stand up to the military. The military is better trained, and no matter how lax the gun laws will always have better hardware and firepower. A bunch of rioters with machine guns against the military, they'd still get slaughtered.

Like I mentioned above, the Black Panthers in this country had a huge arsenal but our government still kicked the crap out of them.

My argument is that it's not easy access to weapons that protects us from government violence or gives us the means to overthrow regimes. The government is better organized, better trained, and has better weapons. And the more tyrannical they are, they less the people in charge care about their casualties as long as ours are higher.

What protects us and gives us the ability to fight back is our ability to build communities and to organize. In the Revolution, it wasn't our arsenal that won the day. Our weapons weren't very good, and the gun control laws of Colonial America were incredibly strict. It was the fact that we had guys like Washington, Jefferson, Adams, and Franklin working together, bringing people together, getting them to work together, formulating plans, convincing France to give us support. You mention the government being destabilized from the inside, but that proves my point. Wether you agree with their politics and ultimate goals or not, the Egyptian revolution was successful because of people working together towards a common goal, not because of firepower.

It's communities that protect us and give us the means to stand up. Not guns.

By your logic, because the Egyptian government was overthrown despite strict gun laws (and despite the reality of the machinations behind the revolt, apparently), then that means every country can as well, regardless of the situation. Colonial Americans in the 1770s must seem like a disgustingly depraved, murderous bunch of people to you then; all they had to do was call up England and say "adios".

Why are you under the impression that I'm praising the Egyptian revolution for a lack of violence? I'm saying that strict gun laws didn't stop them from overthrowing their government.

Also, Colonial America had extremely strict gun control laws. Before the revolution, it was the law that all firearms were government property and had to be checked out of government storage areas. The Colonial Americans also managed to win a revolution in spite of strict gun control laws.
 
Well, this doesn't sound too bad. Adam said he will work with law enforcement beforehand and accept arrest if need be.

[YT]sraPLEQ70pw[/YT]


Maybe he plan as someone said in the comments on youtube is get arrested for this stunt and try to overturn the law he feels is unjust via Supreme Court.
 
I'm just curious, are Americans really paranoid enough to think somehow their own government is out to get them?
 
I'm just curious, are Americans really paranoid enough to think somehow their own government is out to get them?

I think a very very very small but vocal percentage are and then you have people who will go out of the way to profit off those fears only throwing gas on the fire(especially when you have a Democrat President and you need to find something to talk about on your 3 hour radio show)
 
Based on some of the laws that have been passed...

well, let's just say it's not that much of a slippery slope anymore.
 
I'm just curious, are Americans really paranoid enough to think somehow their own government is out to get them?

They are sure as hell out to get my money? :o
 
Based on some of the laws that have been passed...

well, let's just say it's not that much of a slippery slope anymore.

I think there is a huge difference between the possibility of it happening and actually believing the government as we speak now has some plan to overtake the country and their is some double secret organization in the shadows pulling all the strings of the key players.

Probably whats the worse part about the Government is trying to take over the country idea is if you truly believe that don't you think both parties at the top are corrupt and in on the conspiracy instead of the case of looking at one side as the good guys trying to protect us and the others are evil trying to take the country over group. Seems to many people who buy into this are way to partisan when pointing out how it's possible.
 
I think there is a huge difference between the possibility of it happening and actually believing the government as we speak now has some plan to overtake the country and their is some double secret organization in the shadows pulling all the strings of the key players.

Probably whats the worse part about the Government is trying to take over the country idea is if you truly believe that don't you think both parties at the top are corrupt and in on the conspiracy instead of the case of looking at one side as the good guys trying to protect us and the others are evil trying to take the country over group. Seems to many people who buy into this are way to partisan when pointing out how it's possible.

Dude, I have nearly zero faith in the major parties. They are both corrupt and bad. Just lesser evils of each other is all. I rather deal with Democrats than Republicans. Every time I think I might vote for a Republican in 2016 (Rand Paul, Huntsman Jr, even Christie), they (other members of the National Party) end up going hurr durr and I keep sticking with the LP. Hell, I'm gonna try start donating to the LP here in NC in the upcoming weeks since I got a part time job.
 
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