Discussion: The Second Amendment V

[SV Fan]

So the NRA has a marketing list that they can use to possibly get future members or send them information? It's no different than other businesses or groups. Plus, most gun owners would rather trust them with their information than certain government agencies, journalists, and anti-gun groups.

2 bads don't make it right. When somebody campaigns against making lists, they should not do it themselves, period.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

2 bads don't make it right. When somebody campaigns against making lists, they should not do it themselves, period.

They campaigned against the government from collecting a list because of what they may use it for. People aren't afraid of the NRA doing it because they have no legal authority that would possibly freak people out and tend to be more trustworthy than certain government employees and agencies with different agendas.

 

[Hotwire]

I thought the NRA was against this sort of thing?

NRA Keeps Gun Owner Database

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I thought the NRA was against this sort of thing?

NRA Keeps Gun Owner Database

As I've stated earlier, so what? It's not like the NRA has any real legal authority to do anything with a person's guns and it's really no different than what Google or any other private company/group does when they collect data. A private pro-gun group creating a database of potentially like-minded individuals to help fight any potential government action regarding gun control is not the same as the government or anti-gun group doing it with ulterior motives.

 

[dnno1]

Michael Brandon Hill packing nearly 500 rounds at Georgia elementary school
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162...arly-500-rounds-at-georgia-elementary-school/

Only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun my eye!

How a school clerk talked down a would-be shooter
http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/08/21/how-a-brave-school-clerk-talked-down-the-would-be-shooter/

 

[Kelly]

I don't understand what you mean by "Only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun my eye!"

What does that even mean?

 

[SV Fan]

I don't understand what you mean by "Only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun my eye!"

What does that even mean?

[YT]LOSXNoP7lsg[/YT]

Basically it's an NRA motto

 

[Thundercrack85]

I'm guessing he's referring to the NRA's plan to post armed guards at every elementary school.

 

[Kelly]

This school didn't have an armed guard, so not sure how it applies.

The armed guard was at the Administration Building, not the school.

Most elementary schools across the nation do not have guards, those are usually at the secondary schools, some have unarmed guards like what Columbine had...

So, ok? its the NRA motto, still don't see how it applies here.

 

[SV Fan]

This school didn't have an armed guard, so not sure how it applies.

Basically what the lady did proves the NRA idea that you need guns to go after people with guns false

 

[Thundercrack85]

Well to be fair, he could have just as easily killed everyone.

 

[Kelly]

Well, yeah? ok.....


Again, what does that have to do with the motto?

We don't know what would have happened had there been a police officer on site, so again, not real relevant.

Most schools that have guards they are actually off duty police officers or sheriff's department.

 

[SV Fan]

Well to be fair, he could have just as easily killed everyone.

Again, what does that have to do with the motto?

We don't know what would have happened had there been a police officer on site, so again, not real relevant.

True but I do think the lady proved the NRA motto is a very over simplified way of thinking when their can be other methods to solve issues of people with guns(or a symbolic way of saying your rhetoric is simplistic).

The whole only a good person with a gun can kill a bad person with a gun comment rubbed alot of people the wrong way and we rejoice in seeing it proved false(ie somebody stopping a shooting in more humane ways).

 

[Thundercrack85]

Yes. I think talking is the best way to go. But if **** goes south...

Though I admit I'm uncomfortable with having police officers at elementary schools. But if this is going to start being a thing...

 

[Kelly]

It is ridiculous to place any generalization as the end all to these things...whether it is a armed guard on site, or "maybe" just "maybe" you getting a guy like this one that really didn't want to kill anyone it seems except maybe himself. "What ifs", "What could have happened...." is kinda dumb in these cases.

IMO, the school has to have a change in their thinking just as airlines had a change in their thinking as far as hijacking after 9/11. You train teachers to use every means possible to stop someone, running and hiding in a closet is just not going to make it in these situations, you have only become a sitting duck, so teachers/administration have to change their thinking. Here in Houston many schools are going through that training, it incorporates everything from using cords to secure doors that have no means of locking (which is such a dumbass move for schools to have doors that do not lock), to teachers using fire extinguishers to blind and then knock the hell out of the person, to using the towers off of our computers as a weapon, to students becoming moving targets instead of lined up in a row like an arcade game.

That IMO, will change things, people have to become the aggressor in these cases to save lives.

So, if the guard as the first line of defense does not work, then the school has a plan of its own to protect themselves. IMO, both should be done.

 

[Kelly]

Yes. I think talking is the best way to go. But if **** goes south...

Though I admit I'm uncomfortable with having police officers at elementary schools. But if this is going to start being a thing...

Why? they are trained, in most cases they are from that area and the kids know them. They are a great resource for many things as far as drug and gang information, they have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with breaking up fights etc. That is not what they are there for and they are not allowed to intervene unless a weapon is used. They do not write tickets at the elementary level, only for students 12 and older which is secondary school in most areas today.

So really, I don't see a problem with it, we have had them in our district for all of the 22 years that I have been there and we have never had a problem. They have been a great addition for us.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I suppose it depends on how it's done. I just don't want elementary schools to start looking like prisons the way high schools do.

It also raises some logistical / economic issues. How many elementary schools are there in America? How often does this happen? Then calculate how many police officers are going to spend days, months, years, etc essentially sitting around waiting for nothing.

 

[Kelly]

I suppose it depends on how it's done. I just don't want elementary schools to start looking like prisons the way high schools do.

It also raises some logistical issues. How many elementary schools are there in America? How often does this happen? Then calculate how many police officers are going to spend days, months, years, etc essentially sitting around waiting for nothing.

Each of our schools at the secondary level have 1 - 2 from the Sheriff's department on duty during school hours, our elementary school's share officers if they are within a mile of each other.

The secondary schools have an office at the front of the schools near the main office and they have video cameras on each of the doors, and hallways. They are usually in the office watching from there, and then if we have word that there may be some trouble with fights they will make rounds.

At the elementary schools they are patrolling between the schools, and the Principal, and Principal's secretary and AP's have the tv screens in their offices.

All outside doors are locked except the front main doors, but you have to be buzzed in as far as the next set of doors. (IMO, the glass needs to be replaced at all schools, and that is something that the Federal Government could help the states with (that would actually be good pork) .

We don't have metal detectors, but some of the HS in our area do....

I really don't see the security all that much....out of sight, out of mind most of the time.

I see them more at our sporting events, where they are all working.

 

[Feenix]

I bet the NRA is salivating over the recent Chris Lane murder. The aftermath of the Sandy Hook shootings saw a massive increase in the numbers of guns bought (and subsequent NRA memberships). The NRA is probably hoping that this recent murder will cause panic in the public and so they'll go out and buy their high-powered weapons by the truckload.

As for the actual murder itself, is it really easier to get a gun in the States than it is to get your license? Because that's ridiculous. The obsession that Americans have over their guns is sick and twisted. There are more murders with guns in the US every year than there are in any other country (including ones where combat is currently underway). Is that not a statistic that Americans care about?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/will-bunch/chris-lane-murder_b_3800435.html

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/chris...pot-when-it-comes-to-guns-20130823-2sfcy.html

 

[mrvlknight21]

First of all, the Dekalb County School incident earlier this week required the police to intervene before the suspect gave up....so I REALLY dont know what this "good guy with a gun stuff is about."
Secondly, he is a convicted felon, with mental issues, who was able to obtain a gun (not through a legal gun purchase)...which shows (again) that someone who can not legally possess a gun will get their hands on it and use it for their own evil purposes, regardless of laws.

 

[mrvlknight21]

I bet the NRA is salivating over the recent Chris Lane murder. The aftermath of the Sandy Hook shootings saw a massive increase in the numbers of guns bought (and subsequent NRA memberships). The NRA is probably hoping that this recent murder will cause panic in the public and so they'll go out and buy their high-powered weapons by the truckload.

As for the actual murder itself, is it really easier to get a gun in the States than it is to get your license? Because that's ridiculous. The obsession that Americans have over their guns is sick and twisted. There are more murders with guns in the US every year than there are in any other country (including ones where combat is currently underway). Is that not a statistic that Americans care about?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/will-bunch/chris-lane-murder_b_3800435.html

http://www.smh.com.au/comment/chris...pot-when-it-comes-to-guns-20130823-2sfcy.html

Well I have no idea what the NRA is feeling regarding this awful murder. But I know that I personally dont blame the gun industry or America's general acceptance of gun ownership for this senseless murder.

As far as getting a gun versus getting a license, laws vary state-to-state on the purchase of guns and licenses. In Georgia, you can purchase guns and do not need a "license." The Georgia Weapons Permit allows you to carry the gun (concealed or open) outside of your home and car. However, you do not need any sort of license to purchase or own a gun. In North Carolina, you have to get some sort of permit before you can even purchase a handgun. It takes weeks to even have it in your hands.

Im not sure what you mean about America's obsession over their guns being sick and twisted. Not sure what you mean by "high-powered weapons" either.

 

[SV Fan]

First of all, the Dekalb County School incident earlier this week required the police to intervene before the suspect gave up....so I REALLY dont know what this "good guy with a gun stuff is about."

The guy easily could have went on a killing rampage before killing himself or getting shot by a police officer, instead of being talked down. As I said I think what happened at that school shows how overly simplistic the message the NRA is sending out is(basically the only way to prevent crime with guns is using a gun yourself)

Secondly, he is a convicted felon, with mental issues, who was able to obtain a gun (not through a legal gun purchase)...which shows (again) that someone who can not legally possess a gun will get their hands on it and use it for their own evil purposes, regardless of laws.

Well it wasn't that hard for him to get his hands on that gun and all that ammo, I guess the gun Laws in Georgia you talk about above need a little work.

 

[mrvlknight21]

Well it wasn't that hard for him to get his hands on that gun and all that ammo, I guess the gun Laws in Georgia you talk about above need a little work.

But he didnt purchase the gun legally. Nor could he legally possess one.
So....that shows that criminals do not obey the laws. So, the laws did not fail in this instance.

 

[Feenix]

But he didnt purchase the gun legally. Nor could he legally possess one.
So....that shows that criminals do not obey the laws. So, the laws did not fail in this instance.

Do you realize what kind of slippery slope this is on? The one argument I always hear from the pro-gun group is that criminals have guns, so we should as well. Does that apply to every type of weapon? If criminals had flame throwers, should we be allowed to have those, too? Grenades? Nukes? Rocket launchers? It's ridiculous. More effort should be spent on PREVENTING "criminals" from getting their weapons than on arming untrained citizens to the teeth. From the article I posted, you will read that Australia had similar problems with guns and gun violence in the past. They don't now. Why? Gun control laws.

This is what I mean by a sick, twisted obsession with guns. An American wouldn't give up their gun, even if it meant saving lives.

 

[SV Fan]

But he didnt purchase the gun legally. Nor could he legally possess one.
So....that shows that criminals do not obey the laws. So, the laws did not fail in this instance.

My point is how much did the lax gun laws in Georgia help in allowing the guy to buy the guns(illegally) in the first place(which was my main point in the statement you responded to but completely ignored by creating a strawman argument)

Here is an idea, tag guns like we do vehicles that way we know who rightfully owns any given gun. That way when somebody like the guy in that school shooting gets his hands on a gun like that you can follow the trail where and who it came from. That should cut down the chances of illegal guns being sold(but I am guessing the gun nuts will claim they losing their 2nd amendment rights to go to war with the government)

And yes I know the counter argument that illegal guns will still find a way to be sold(so we shouldn't do anything about it) but my counter argument to that is that while illegal stuff will still be sold you are going to cut a percentage of those sales in the future and that's better then doing absolutely nothing