Discussion: The Second Amendment V

[Hotwire]

I couldn't care less about what type of Government did it. I'm not Conservative, so what difference does it make?

And it's not about being paranoid that someone is going to get you. And I certainly wouldn't say that the majority of people here let it run their lives. That's an overgeneralization. But we do understand that people exist that wish to do others harm. You can either be prepared to deal with them, or not.

According to this article:

It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:

In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:

Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.
While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.

So your overall crime increased, but, yay, no guns were used.

Goody.

And here's some more recent data that shows that all of those figures are now lower than they were in the years you cited.
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/{0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA}facts11.pdf

Goody!

 

[Thundercrack85]

It's one thing to not have a gun in a country where very few people have guns. I'd still want one, but that notwithstanding, you're less likely to be attacked by someone with one.

But in America where there are more than 300 million people, and half a billion guns in circulation?

What's that saying? Don't bring a knife to a gunfight?

 

[jmc]

Fewer people are dieing overall down here. Don't you all get it? You are never going to stop crime but you can decrease the death rate associated with it. What's is wrong with you ****ing people?

 

[Kelly]

Fewer people are dieing overall down here. Don't you all get it? You are never going to stop crime but you can decrease the death rate associated with it. What's is wrong with you ****ing people?

Excuse me? Let's chill a little...

 

[enterthemadness]

Fewer people are dieing overall down here. Don't you all get it? You are never going to stop crime but you can decrease the death rate associated with it. What's is wrong with you ****ing people?

I don't care. If the Gov't want to have gun control or ban all guns let them. Let's call everybody's buff and see what happens in reality.

I don't know, but we have...

Conspiracy Theorists piss and moaning about gun control.

Gun Owners pissing and moaning about gun control.

Big Gov't saying Gun Control ain't a bad thing.

I got the popcorn...I call everybody's bluff and let's see what happens with Gun Control or a out right ban. I'm Libertarian, but I also just don't give a crap anymore.

 

[wiegeabo]

How about, instead of taking guns from law abiding citizens, we take it from the criminals? And maybe shut down the illegal supply lines?

That way the bad guys are the only ones without guns, and they have to think twice before committing a crime.

 

[enterthemadness]

How about, instead of taking guns from law abiding citizens, we take it from the criminals? And maybe shut down the illegal supply lines?

That way the bad guys are the only ones without guns, and they have to think twice before committing a crime.

Isn't it easier to take guns from law abiding citizens cause gee...it's easier to track the guns?

 

[Hotwire]

How about, instead of taking guns from law abiding citizens, we take it from the criminals? And maybe shut down the illegal supply lines?

That way the bad guys are the only ones without guns, and they have to think twice before committing a crime.

Well, universal background checks would be at least one step in that direction. If they can't buy them at gun stores or gun shows, they are then forced to buy from the black market. Also, with the gun owner's license I had suggested being required for the purchase of bullets, again, criminals are forced into the black market. Then, we can focus our law enforcement on tracking down the people selling illegal guns and bullets. Again, not a final solution but, a step in that direction.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Fewer people are dieing overall down here. Don't you all get it? You are never going to stop crime but you can decrease the death rate associated with it. What's is wrong with you ****ing people?

Why are you so concerned with it? It's not your country's problem to deal with.

 

[Victarion]

I wouldn't go hunting through the house for an intruder. If I have enough warning, then I herd the family into one room, call the police and if anything comes through that door that isn't a cop, they get shot. That way, there's no question whatsoever of the intent of the intruder to do us harm as he is coming to my protected area.

That's what I meant by knowing how to use the layout; knowing where you can position yourself to keep an eye out while waiting for the police to arrive.

 

[Bill]

And here's some more recent data that shows that all of those figures are now lower than they were in the years you cited.
http://www.aic.gov.au/documents/0/B/6/{0B619F44-B18B-47B4-9B59-F87BA643CBAA}facts11.pdf

Goody!

Did you actually read your own source? Page 2 lists trends in assaults and sexual assaults that markedly higher since 1996, and then run in trends of highs and lows, but the lows are higher than the highs since the ban. So I'd say your source isn't so "goody" after all. Unless you feel that going from 114,156 and 14,452 to 171,083 and 17,757, respectively, is a good thing. So, overall, violent crime increased, but gun use went down.

The point is that the US experienced a lower percentage of violent crime, including homicides, in the same years with no ban at all. What is your point, exactly?

 

[Bill]

Fewer people are dieing overall down here. Don't you all get it? You are never going to stop crime but you can decrease the death rate associated with it. What's is wrong with you ****ing people?

The question is, do you get it? Gun bans are supposed to make you safer. That is supposedly the reason why they are instituted. Just take a look at Hotwire's data he so generously provided. They're not making you safer. I'd even argue that homicides haven't lowered to such a degree that the ban can take sole credit. It seems to me that homicides should drop to near nothing, but the problem is the same in your country as it is here. No one wants to actually address the criminals, so crime continues on. In fact, it looks like you should be looking over your shoulder even more now.

 

[jmc]

They are meant to stop people from being killed. You are no safer with a gun than without it, again, it's a false sense of security. Less people with access to guns the lesser the chances are people will be shot. It's common sense. The great irony is the US prides itself on standing up for human rights and doing the right thing around the world yet it's people don't give enough of a damn to see their gun culture is getting their own people killed unnecessarily.

 

[Hotwire]

Did you actually read your own source? Page 2 lists trends in assaults and sexual assaults that markedly higher since 1996, and then run in trends of highs and lows, but the lows are higher than the highs since the ban. So I'd say your source isn't so "goody" after all. Unless you feel that going from 114,156 and 14,452 to 171,083 and 17,757, respectively, is a good thing. So, overall, violent crime increased, but gun use went down.

The point is that the US experienced a lower percentage of violent crime, including homicides, in the same years with no ban at all. What is your point, exactly?

My point was that current statistics are lower than what you posted and are actually going down. Regardless of where they were before, the current trend is down. Specifically, look at the homicide rate, which is lower now than it was, not only 1996 but, any other year on the chart. Robbery? Same thing.

Also, you're pointing out a flaw in your own argument. It was pointed out that since their gun ban, murder rates are down. You are then moving the goal post to focus on the assaults. See, there's a huge difference between an assault and a homicide. In the assault, no one dies! Yes it's a crime that shouldn't happen but, I'd take an assault over a murder any day of the week!

One more thing, since your article says that the gun ban not no effect on the violent crime rate, it would stand to reason that having guns wasn't having an effect on it either. Unless, of course, you have data to back up that claim.

 

[Hotwire]

They are meant to stop people from being killed. You are no safer with a gun than without it, again, it's a false sense of security. Less people with access to guns the lesser the chances are people will be shot. It's common sense. The great irony is the US prides itself on standing up for human rights and doing the right thing around the world yet it's people don't give enough of a damn to see their gun culture is getting their own people killed unnecessarily.

You need to take that common sense and GTFO!!



Kidding.

 

[wiegeabo]

So let's TAKE THE GUNS AWAY FROM THE CRIMINALS WHO ARE DOING THE CRIMES!!! And not the law-abiding citizens who don't do anything wrong.

Or is that too much common sense too?

 

[Hotwire]

So let's TAKE THE GUNS AWAY FROM THE CRIMINALS WHO ARE DOING THE CRIMES!!! And not the law-abiding citizens who don't do anything wrong.

Or is that too much common sense too?

Okay.

Well, universal background checks would be at least one step in that direction. If they can't buy them at gun stores or gun shows, they are then forced to buy from the black market. Also, with the gun owner's license I had suggested being required for the purchase of bullets, again, criminals are forced into the black market. Then, we can focus our law enforcement on tracking down the people selling illegal guns and bullets. Again, not a final solution but, a step in that direction.

 

[wiegeabo]

Yes, but the conversation thus far has been to take ALL guns away.

 

[SuperT]

I've gotten so fed up with this whole thing I'm just about to the point where I say screw your second amendment rights. It's almost like people are clinging two this outdated amendment and their guns because they don't have anything else left in their measly little lives.

I think my right to be able to walk around in a public place and not have to think about who has a permit to carry in public and if they are sane enough or not trumps your 2nd amendment rights.

 

[wiegeabo]

If that's what you're worrying about, than you're doing it wrong. You should be worried about those carrying without a permit. You know, the people breaking the law who wouldn't obey a gun ban anyway.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I've gotten so fed up with this whole thing I'm just about to the point where I say screw your second amendment rights. It's almost like people are clinging two this outdated amendment and their guns because they don't have anything else left in their measly little lives.

I think my right to be able to walk around in a public place and not have to think about who has a permit to carry in public and if they are sane enough or not trumps your 2nd amendment rights.

You're making a bunch of grand (and wrong) generalizations about gun owners. You really don't have to worry about those who have permits to carry since they've gone through the legal steps to do so. A sane person would typically not go through those steps.

 

[wiegeabo]

Sane or insane???

 

[Kable24]

edit

 

[Kelly]

edit

I saw nothing wrong with what you posted....

 

[jmc]

So let's TAKE THE GUNS AWAY FROM THE CRIMINALS WHO ARE DOING THE CRIMES!!! And not the law-abiding citizens who don't do anything wrong.

Or is that too much common sense too?

How about you do both? After all, if the criminals don't have them then there's not much point in Joe Public having them either is there? That is common sense.