Discussion: Voting Rights and Election Law

[Kelly]

No but the ID shouldn't be implemented mostly for a partisan political advantage and it should done in a way that doesn 't create a greater obstacles for poor people who much money or transportation.


If you charged military service members to pay 15 dollars for absentee voting expenses Republicans would be screaming ”poll tax”, ”unfair”, ”dirty politics”, etc.

And most of the states that are wanting this, are coming up with ways to make this as low cost, and in some cases free...so that really isn't an argument for what should have happened a long time ago....

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Yeah that's another point. This should've happened a long time ago.

Like the beginning of the election cycle, not the midway of 2012.

This whole thing just stinks of dirty politics.

 

[Kelly]

Yeah that's another point. This should've happened a long time ago.

Like the beginning of the election cycle, not the midway of 2012.

This whole thing just stinks of dirty politics.

It's dirty politics all the way around....and I can assure you the Democrat Party would have cried just as loudly in 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012....and they will continue to do so....why? Because they love selling those cigarettes on the streets for those votes....its cheap, and it works....just ask Michigan.

Dirty politics happens every where.....and neither side is immune. That's life.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

It's dirty politics all the way around....and I can assure you the Democrat Party would have cried just as loudly in 2000, 2004, 2008, 2012....and they will continue to do so....why? Because they love selling those cigarettes on the streets for those votes....its cheap, and it works....just ask Michigan.

Dirty politics happens every where.....and neither side is immune. That's life.

Dirty politics belong in the shadows. Once we allow it to be done openly without regard for fairness then our highest democratic ideals are easily poisoned with widespread cynicism and blatant abuse.

 

[Kelly]

Dirty politics belong in the shadows. Once we allow it to be done openly without regard for fairness then our highest democratic ideals are easily poisoned with widespread cynicism and blatant abuse.

Then I don't understand where you are coming from....you think it should have happened earlier, so its the timing???? So are you afraid your candidate is going to lose because of it...because I'm getting a topsy turvy vibe here.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Nope, if the Republicans brought this up early in the election cycle in 2009 and tried to implement a free and easy voter IDs it wouldn't seem nearly as partisan or dirty and might actually improve the voting process.

Nothing topsy turvy about that. I've brought up all these problems since page one.

 

[Kelly]

Nope, if the Republicans brought this up in 2009 and tried to implement a free and easy voter IDs it wouldn't seem nearly as partisan and dirty and might actually improve the voting process.

Nothing topsy turvy about that. I've brought up all these problems since page one.

So your problem is the timing...???

What if it were opposite and this would hurt the Republican party??? Be honest....

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

So your problem is the timing...???

What if it were opposite and this would hurt the Republican party??? Be honest....

I would probably be far less offended by the effort but I don't think I would defend it.

Recall elections for example. I never liked the idea of a recall whether it was organized in California by Republicans or organized in Wisconsin by Democrats.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

So your problem is the timing...???

Poor timing, blatant partisanship and intentional inconvenience to those with the least resources

 

[Kelly]

Poor timing, blatant partisanship and intentional inconvenience to those with the least resources

You didn't answer my question.....

 

[bell110]

Those numbers you keep giving do not reflect the voter fraud in municipal elections, state elections, etc....and if you think it is ok for people to go into a voting precinct and vote, without having to prove they are who they say they are.....ok. IMO, get those 1000s some viable ID, which everyone should have anyway....

Wow, ya know....I bet we turn away 1000s when they try and register their car, because they don't have ID....that sucks...so unfair.

Well, could you provide some numbers that reflect fraud in any of those examples?

There are other ways of committing voter fraud, and having idividuals going to polling stations and pretending they are someone else is probably the least pragmatic. Plus we already have laws that will, if not discourage, prosecute anyone who engages in voter fraud.

Well, the car thing. Registering a car isn't a right. Plus, I think that's stupid as well, but that's not the point of this thread. I guess it's the Libertarian in me, but I don't think people "should" have an ID to take part in something that is their right. This also strikes me as ironic considering that Republicans are the most paranoid, anti-big government, anti-big brother, people around and they are fine with the idea that you need government documentation to perform something that is a right.

Maybe this wouldn't be a big deal to me if it was something that's been in place for decades. But given the time and number of states that all decided to do this, it's outrageous. I'm sad that there isn't a stronger stand for these Americans that will be affected.

(And just a minor point to me, but giving out free ID cards cost money, and everybody is complaining about government's wasteful spending. Free ID cards is, to me, very wasteful.)

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Well, could you provide some numbers that reflect fraud in any of those examples?

There are other ways of committing voter fraud, and having idividuals going to polling stations and pretending they are someone else is probably the least pragmatic. Plus we already have laws that will, if not discourage, prosecute anyone who engages in voter fraud.

Well, the car thing. Registering a car isn't a right. Plus, I think that's stupid as well, but that's not the point of this thread. I guess it's the Libertarian in me, but I don't think people "should" have an ID to take part in something that is their right. This also strikes me as ironic considering that Republicans are the most paranoid, anti-big government, anti-big brother, people around and they are fine with the idea that you need government documentation to perform something that is a right.

Maybe this wouldn't be a big deal to me if it was something that's been in place for decades. But given the time and number of states that all decided to do this, it's outrageous. I'm sad that there isn't a stronger stand for these Americans that will be affected.

(And just a minor point to me, but giving out free ID cards cost money, and everybody is complaining about government's wasteful spending. Free ID cards is, to me, very wasteful.)

I doubt it would be significant, especially considering the vast majority of people already have proper ID.

I agree that it hasn't been implemented very well, but that's a different argument. What I'm supporting is the basic concept. Voting is right, but you still should have to prove that you are 'you'. I don't care if there are a significant number of non-citizens voting. One is too many. Everything possible should be done to accommodate citizens who can't afford to get IDs as well as inform people that it is a mandatory requirement, but if somebody is ultimately too lazy or stupid to get one, then too bad.

 

[Matt]

Just for the record, the PA Secretary of State sent out letters to every registered voter in the Commonwealth (I just got mine today) informing us of the new ID law AND announcing that PennDOT (The PA Department of Transportation) is issuing free state ID cards. Also, though the law was in effect in May, we were allowed to vote without ID, though poll workers informed us that next time we would be turned away. Kudos to my state for handling the transition so well.

 

[Kelly]

Just for the record, the PA Secretary of State sent out letters to every registered voter in the Commonwealth (I just got mine today) informing us of the new ID law AND announcing that PennDOT (The PA Department of Transportation) is issuing free state ID cards. Also, though the law was in effect in May, we were allowed to vote without ID, though poll workers informed us that next time we would be turned away. Kudos to my state for handling the transition so well.

Exactly, and I believe every state is doing the same....I just don't see what the big deal is.....except that it will help one side more than the other....well boooo hoooo.....this type of thing should have been done a long time ago. I don't care which side of the aisle it helps....IMO, they shouldn't be relying on a demographic that may or may not be eligible to vote.

 

[Kelly]

I doubt it would be significant, especially considering the vast majority of people already have proper ID.

I agree that it hasn't been implemented very well, but that's a different argument. What I'm supporting is the basic concept. Voting is right, but you still should have to prove that you are 'you'. I don't care if there are a significant number of non-citizens voting. One is too many. Everything possible should be done to accommodate citizens who can't afford to get IDs as well as inform people that it is a mandatory requirement, but if somebody is ultimately too lazy or stupid to get one, then too bad.

Well, hell the lists they have that they are saying is a huge number that don't have ID.....it has already been proven that there are doubles and triples of the names on that list....and many DO HAVE IDS that are on those lists.....some are freaking US senators....

 

[Donnie Darko]

Just for the record, the PA Secretary of State sent out letters to every registered voter in the Commonwealth (I just got mine today) informing us of the new ID law AND announcing that PennDOT (The PA Department of Transportation) is issuing free state ID cards. Also, though the law was in effect in May, we were allowed to vote without ID, though poll workers informed us that next time we would be turned away. Kudos to my state for handling the transition so well.

If this was facebook, I would "like" your post, sir.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Just for the record, the PA Secretary of State sent out letters to every registered voter in the Commonwealth (I just got mine today) informing us of the new ID law AND announcing that PennDOT (The PA Department of Transportation) is issuing free state ID cards. Also, though the law was in effect in May, we were allowed to vote without ID, though poll workers informed us that next time we would be turned away. Kudos to my state for handling the transition so well.

Outside of being too close to November 2012 this addresses pretty much all my concerns.

Hopefully every swing state will handle voter IDs equally well.

 

[Bathead]

And most of the states that are wanting this, are coming up with ways to make this as low cost, and in some cases free...so that really isn't an argument for what should have happened a long time ago....

What about people like me, naturalized citizens who have been registered voters for a long time, but can't get a photo ID because in order to do that we have to prove that we are citizens by showing either our Citizenship or Naturalization certificates, which we can't do because they were lost a long time ago and to replace it costs over $350? I definitely can't afford that, and I'm certain there are many more like me.
If you think this is anything other than a ploy to disenfranchise groups of voters who are more likley to vote Democratic, then I can't think but maybe ou're being somewhat naive. Voter fraud my a$$.

 

[Kelly]

What about people like me, naturalized citizens who have been registered voters for a long time, but can't get a photo ID because in order to do that we have to prove that we are citizens by showing either our Citizenship or Naturalization certificates, which we can't do because they were lost a long time ago and to replace it costs over $350? I definitely can't afford that, and I'm certain there are many more like me.
If you think this is anything other than a ploy to disenfranchise groups of voters who are more likley to vote Democratic, then I can't think but maybe ou're being somewhat naive. Voter fraud my a$$.

I'm doubtful there are many that have lost those documents....too important....the people I know that have gained their citizenship....and living where I do, I know many....they guard those things like their children....

I would go to the nearest Catholic Church, and see if there is anyway they can help you get copies of those things....

Also you can file a G-639 form with the National Record Service, they scan all immigration documents....they may also be able to help you find a way to get these things in a cheaper manner....AND once you get them...take care of them. This is going to take some time....

Do you have a passport?

 

[Bathead]

I'm doubtful there are many that have lost those documents....too important....the people I know that have gained their citizenship....and living where I do, I know many....they guard those things like their children....

I would go to the nearest Catholic Church, and see if there is anyway they can help you get copies of those things....

Also you can file a G-639 form with the National Record Service, they scan all immigration documents....they may also be able to help you find a way to get these things in a cheaper manner....AND once you get them...take care of them. This is going to take some time....

Do you have a passport?

Nope.

 

[Kelly]

Nope.

I was reading on some Immigration forums yesterday, and it looks like the money won't be your biggest problem....even if you could afford it today, you wouldn't get the proper documentation for quite awhile.

Man, when you do in fact get these papers....you need to lock them up somewhere safe, and take care of them.....those are papers you can't just play around with....

Most on these forums treated their documentation like their children....lol

 

[chaseter]

What about people like me, naturalized citizens who have been registered voters for a long time, but can't get a photo ID because in order to do that we have to prove that we are citizens by showing either our Citizenship or Naturalization certificates, which we can't do because they were lost a long time ago and to replace it costs over $350? I definitely can't afford that, and I'm certain there are many more like me.
If you think this is anything other than a ploy to disenfranchise groups of voters who are more likley to vote Democratic, then I can't think but maybe ou're being somewhat naive. Voter fraud my a$$.

You shouldn't have lost them. Do you whine at the car dealership when you lose your car keys? Do you whine to the bank when you lose a 20? If those papers are your life...you think people would be a tad bit more careful. No random person should be allowed to vote without any sort of check...that's just dumb.

 

[dnno1]

You shouldn't have lost them. Do you whine at the car dealership when you lose your car keys? Do you whine to the bank when you lose a 20? If those papers are your life...you think people would be a tad bit more careful. No random person should be allowed to vote without any sort of check...that's just dumb.

If the guy can't afford to pay $350 (which is $380 now), do you think he can afford to by a car? Those things happen. My wife's naturalization papers were stolen. You going to tell that person who took them not to steal them? In fact maybe you should take some blame for not telling that person sooner. What did you say was dumb again?

 

[chaseter]

I really don't care about the story behind why someone lost something. That's your fault, not anyone else's. You can argue that the cost to obtain replacements is high, that's fine and I really can't argue otherwise. If they were stolen and you had a police report, maybe it should be that you get replacements quicker and cheaper. That's another argument to be had elsewhere. Losing and theft however are two entirely different arguments entirely. The argument here was that because said papers were lost, he still should be able to vote even without proper id. No...that's dumb. That's what I said and I stick by it. Random people shouldn't be able to waltz in and vote with no checks.

Those voter fraud numbers are reported/prosecuted cases...how the heck do people report voter fraud if they have no idea who the person is or if their id is valid?

 

[SV Fan]

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2012/07/former_florida_gop_chair_says.php

Former Florida GOP Chair Says Party Tried to Find Ways to Get Blacks Not to Vote

In a recently released deposition from his ongoing criminal trial, Jim Greer, the former chair of the Republican Party of Florida, claims the party actively tried to find ways to get African Americans not to vote. He claims the party also squashed efforts at minority outreach, as they were not a good fit for the Republican Party of Florida.