Do you agree with Ozymandias's philosophy?

[Sentinel X]

Do you think that in order to have good we must sacrifice the innocents? Just how many innocent people would it take for it to be "okay"? If it took 1 innocent person to perish in order to unite the world would it be worth it then?

 

[The Riddler]

let me put it this way: if the plan worked to perfection, then yes, i agree with ozymandias.

problem is, i don't think it'd work for very long.

 

[Adam3482009]

I think the question should be rephrased on whether you think sacrificing innocent lives (which would have the effect of creating mass panic)could possibly force people into a reconciliation and the answer is obviously "yes" (this is definitely one probable outcome of a mass panic).

 

[CaptainGenerica]

let me put it this way: if the plan worked to perfection, then yes, i agree with ozymandias.

problem is, i don't think it'd work for very long.

Here's how I see it. If Ozy had done nothing, far, far more than half the population of a single city would have died, and there would have been a global nuclear war. With Ozy's plan in effect, there is peace. Of course it will be temporary (even if it lasts for decades), but at the VERY LEAST it will have prevented an imminent nuclear war. Even if business as usual resumes after a couple of months, at least he will have given mankind just that much more breathing room.

Preventing a nuclear war is always a good thing. Even if his plan doesn't succeed perfectly, its net effects for humanity are good.




That said, I agree 100% with Ozymandias. I'm one who says that the ends justify the means. Always. In my opinion, they have to, by definition. (It's just that certain ends are more important than others, depending on the person.)

 

[Closerframe]

People upset me when they compare Adrian to Adolf Hitler, they are alike only in their German background, but otherwise they are two different men. I for one agree with Adrian's entire plot that's what really makes him the only true hero in the entire graphic novel. Like people have mentioned before if he didn't take the actions he did than more people would have died on both sides. But what makes his philosophy truly amazing is his guilt for what he has done, he's not a villain in any aspect he said he has had dreams about all the faces that he would be sacrificing and he's willing to stay up every night for the rest of his life with his guilt. Of course his plan will not last of course, but in reality nothing ever last? (Like Manhattan stated)

 

[Tyrinus]

But Ozymandias is the reason Dr Manhattan exiled himself. His absence is what brought the nuclear war to the brink. So if Ozymandias had done nothing, then there's a good possibility that the threat of Dr Manhattan would have kept everyone in check.

 

[Gilpesh]

But Ozymandias is the reason Dr Manhattan exiled himself. His absence is what brought the nuclear war to the brink. So if Ozymandias had done nothing, then there's a good possibility that the threat of Dr Manhattan would have kept everyone in check.

Um.... did you read the extra material in the Manhattan chapter?

It states that Manhattan couldn't stop all the nuclear weapons and that eventually the Russians (whose mindset was completely different than the US') might just go all out war because they want to save face (even with Manhattan around, notice how there was still a Cold War going on...). Because 40% of their nuclear weapons hitting the United States.... is still a deathblow, meaning that they would be fine with mutually assured destruction as the end of the conflict.

 

[Adam3482009]

riginally Posted by The Riddler
let me put it this way: if the plan worked to perfection, then yes, i agree with ozymandias.

problem is, i don't think it'd work for very long.
Here's how I see it. If Ozy had done nothing, far, far more than half the population of a single city would have died, and there would have been a global nuclear war. With Ozy's plan in effect, there is peace. Of course it will be temporary (even if it lasts for decades), but at the VERY LEAST it will have prevented an imminent nuclear war. Even if business as usual resumes after a couple of months, at least he will have given mankind just that much more breathing room.

Preventing a nuclear war is always a good thing. Even if his plan doesn't succeed perfectly, its net effects for humanity are good.


That said, I agree 100% with Ozymandias. I'm one who says that the ends justify the means. Always. In my opinion, they have to, by definition. (It's just that certain ends are more important than others, depending on the person.)

That is a great way to lay things out. From a practical point of view the ends do justify the means. From a moral point of view one could even argue this. From a spiritual point of view? You could still argue this in some ways.

From a humanistic/emotional point of view the ends justifiy the means can be a tougher arguement.

I like how Moore addresses this moral issue with the right amount of ambiguity making the audience think rather than just trying to disgust/shock them.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea I agree with him. I would sacrifice a thousand people to save the world. I would sacrifice on person to save a thousand.

 

[Adam3482009]

If you were given a gun and told to kills your best freind by shooting them in the head or an atomic bomb would go off somewhere (could be anywhere in the world), would you do it?

If you were shown into a room, found your famioly tied up and were given a chainsaw to decapitate all of them would you still do it?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Hmmm, that's a toughie. I think i'd have to do it.

 

[iDannyR]

went with "i agree"

 

[OtherwiseKnownAs]

Yes I agree with Ozymandia's phliosophy.

 

[the_tortel]

EDIT: double

 

[the_tortel]

Joking, of course...

No compromise for innocent lives, not even in the face of Armageddon, never compromise...


ok, sorry, had to do that. But no, I'm not going to sacrifice any lives but my own to help the world.

 

[Adam3482009]

That's very idealistic of you.

There's so many different ways of thinking about this, sometimes, one could never know until confronted with scenarios such as this one.

 

[Rasputin911]

i'll be honest...all the replies here have kinda scared me. I think you guys are taking the exact wrong message from the story. To me, Alan was trying to say that for all Ozy's talk about world peace and a better world, he was just another violent megalomaniac. He has become what he despised.

The guy keeps dolls of himself in his office!!! And he still has the self-righteousness to call Blake a Nazi even though he is planning the murder of millions of people. Its very ironic.

Guys, the whole "we must slaughter millions to create a utopia" line has been used by all totalitarian dictators. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong all shared Ozy's philosophy in essence.


Now take Batman on one hand and Ozy on the other. Batman adamantly refuses to kill the Joker, even though he knows doing so will make the world a better place. Becuz no matter the good consequences, it would still be murder. And murder is murder, in Batman's eyes, and he refuses to be the judge, jury and executioner. That's a true hero, because he isn't a tyrant. Ozy, on the other hand, will go beyond judge, jury, and executioner and basically make himself God. That's a villain, not a hero. An interesting, altruistic villain, but still a villain.

 

[the_tortel]

That's very idealistic of you.

There's so many different ways of thinking about this, sometimes, one could never know until confronted with scenarios such as this one.

Thanks, I try, and I'd really like to think I'd make the right decision, even though I doubt I'd ever have to which is GOOOOD...

i'll be honest...all the replies here have kinda scared me. I think you guys are taking the exact wrong message from the story. To me, Alan was trying to say that for all Ozy's talk about world peace and a better world, he was just another violent megalomaniac. He has become what he despised.

The guy keeps dolls of himself in his office!!! And he still has the self-righteousness to call Blake a Nazi even though he is planning the murder of millions of people. Its very ironic.

Guys, the whole "we must slaughter millions to create a utopia" line has been used by all totalitarian dictators. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong all shared Ozy's philosophy in essence.


Now take Batman on one hand and Ozy on the other. Batman adamantly refuses to kill the Joker, even though he knows doing so will make the world a better place. Becuz no matter the good consequences, it would still be murder. And murder is murder, in Batman's eyes, and he refuses to be the judge, jury and executioner. That's a true hero, because he isn't a tyrant. Ozy, on the other hand, will go beyond judge, jury, and executioner and basically make himself God. That's a villain, not a hero. An interesting, altruistic villain, but still a villain.

Couldn't agree more, it's kinda creepy how if the shoe were on the other foot everyone would be totally against Adrian's plan, in all seriousness.

 

[Sentinel X]

i'll be honest...all the replies here have kinda scared me. I think you guys are taking the exact wrong message from the story. To me, Alan was trying to say that for all Ozy's talk about world peace and a better world, he was just another violent megalomaniac. He has become what he despised.

The guy keeps dolls of himself in his office!!! And he still has the self-righteousness to call Blake a Nazi even though he is planning the murder of millions of people. Its very ironic.

Guys, the whole "we must slaughter millions to create a utopia" line has been used by all totalitarian dictators. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong all shared Ozy's philosophy in essence.


Now take Batman on one hand and Ozy on the other. Batman adamantly refuses to kill the Joker, even though he knows doing so will make the world a better place. Becuz no matter the good consequences, it would still be murder. And murder is murder, in Batman's eyes, and he refuses to be the judge, jury and executioner. That's a true hero, because he isn't a tyrant. Ozy, on the other hand, will go beyond judge, jury, and executioner and basically make himself God. That's a villain, not a hero. An interesting, altruistic villain, but still a villain.

Im leaning toward your view. Btw, Im the only one who voted not sure

I think in a way it is good because you are saving thousands, millions by killing a few. HOWEVER, these are innocent people and that is murder. Part of me would like to beleive that humanity could unite or make peace without murder or terrorism but it seems that the only way to unite humans is through FEAR...this FORCES people to be united but does it really make them united? No, not at all unfortunately.

It reminds me of 9/11...right after 9/11 EVERYONE was so kind to each other but two years later that died off and people were back to normal. This shows that we all behave differently under harsh circumstances...there for Ozy's plan was not a cure to the bane of humanity....the only thing it did was palliate it's "illness". So was it justified and reasonable?...Im going to have to say no.

The ultimate question is "Does the end justify the means?"...well, how can the end justify the means when hate is neverending? His plan will work for only a limited time after a while what is he going to do...the same thing? over and over and over?

 

[Closerframe]

i'll be honest...all the replies here have kinda scared me. I think you guys are taking the exact wrong message from the story. To me, Alan was trying to say that for all Ozy's talk about world peace and a better world, he was just another violent megalomaniac. He has become what he despised.

The guy keeps dolls of himself in his office!!! And he still has the self-righteousness to call Blake a Nazi even though he is planning the murder of millions of people. Its very ironic.

Guys, the whole "we must slaughter millions to create a utopia" line has been used by all totalitarian dictators. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao Zedong all shared Ozy's philosophy in essence.


Now take Batman on one hand and Ozy on the other. Batman adamantly refuses to kill the Joker, even though he knows doing so will make the world a better place. Becuz no matter the good consequences, it would still be murder. And murder is murder, in Batman's eyes, and he refuses to be the judge, jury and executioner. That's a true hero, because he isn't a tyrant. Ozy, on the other hand, will go beyond judge, jury, and executioner and basically make himself God. That's a villain, not a hero. An interesting, altruistic villain, but still a villain.

Its not technically ironic that Adrian labels Blake has Hitler because Hitler's idea of an utopia and how to get there is less barbaric in his execution. Adrian believed that it was his responsibility to save the humanity from total obliteration he took responsibility and was welling to do what the others failed to do. If you look at it you can say all of the characters in Watchmen played a part in pushing the break of a nuclear war, if it wasn't for Blake's thrust for blood or Dr. Manhattan's input with technological breakthroughs I'm more than sure it could have been avoided. Adrian is not a villain he is in reality the only real "hero" in the entire novel because what does he do at the end of the day? He saves the day he just took a different path to reach it.

 

[CorpusBlack]

Doesn't matter what happens. If enough humans still exist, they'll just muck it up eventually.

 

[Franklin Richards]

Its not technically ironic that Adrian labels Blake has Hitler because Hitler's idea of an utopia and how to get there is less barbaric in his execution. Adrian believed that it was his responsibility to save the humanity from total obliteration he took responsibility and was welling to do what the others failed to do. If you look at it you can say all of the characters in Watchmen played a part in pushing the break of a nuclear war, if it wasn't for Blake's thrust for blood or Dr. Manhattan's input with technological breakthroughs I'm more than sure it could have been avoided. Adrian is not a villain he is in reality the only real "hero" in the entire novel because what does he do at the end of the day? He saves the day he just took a different path to reach it.

Seig heil!!!

 

[Rasputin911]

Its not technically ironic that Adrian labels Blake has Hitler because Hitler's idea of an utopia and how to get there is less barbaric in his execution. Adrian believed that it was his responsibility to save the humanity from total obliteration he took responsibility and was welling to do what the others failed to do. If you look at it you can say all of the characters in Watchmen played a part in pushing the break of a nuclear war, if it wasn't for Blake's thrust for blood or Dr. Manhattan's input with technological breakthroughs I'm more than sure it could have been avoided. Adrian is not a villain he is in reality the only real "hero" in the entire novel because what does he do at the end of the day? He saves the day he just took a different path to reach it.

"Taking responsibility" is what caused all the problems in the firts place. These guys all became heroes to "save the world" and Adrian just took that to its logical extreme. Watchmen is a critique of this superhero mindset ("i have all the answers whether people want them or not")

By "taking responsibility" for the world's fate he is becoming a tyrant and a villain, especially when he murders millions to achieve his goals

 

[Addendum]

It's not like the world asked to be saved. Just stand aside and let it destroy itself.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

If someone like Bush did it, I'd hate the idea. But Ozy makes it look so cool.

Especially the giant psychic squid part.