Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

Yup.

 

A bad reputation growing? Yup. 10 - 20 years down the line, I could see people looking back at it like Batman Returns. A half split of people either loving and digging it or hating and trashing it and debating it's perceived quality non-stop.

 

Yeah maybe the tragedy affected the film in the states but else where in the world no.
The Dark knight rises is a fantastic film that will forever be praised because it's an ending to a very popular version of Batman and is made by a well respected filmmaker Mr Chris Nolan.
A bad reputation.....hardly but only from hardcore fans.

 

I dont know mostly because i have lots of difficulties to gauge its reputation now. It made lots of money , its was well reviewed by most people and who knows about the rest of the audience ? A few days ago a user posted on this boards how TDK was climbing in the imdb chart (5th ? Now its 4th , so one down eheh) , and i just noticed it. Rises is the best film of 2012 in that site for the voters (720 thousand people....!). And one of the best of the century. If we take this as consideration , i dont see a lot of space for it to grow.

 

I think it'll grow with time as the trilogy as a whole nestles itself a spot on the nostalgia shelf. It'll definitely have that "Batman Returns" controversial element attached to it amongst hardcore fans, but I think in the grand scheme it'll become clear that it's a film worthy of merit. I think by the time the third film came around people were a little jaded to the quality level that Nolan brought to the series and took that for granted, but as we see move further and further away from it I think all the movies including Rises will definitely benefit from the context of time.

I also think in terms of scale, Rises is about as big (for some people too big) as a Batman film can possibly get without it being an alien invasion/JLA film.

The thing about Rises that really gets under my skin is it has this really primal, militaristic drive to it as a result of Bane and all the music associated with his character. It's very stark from all the other Batman films and really badass. I don't know if we'll ever get that again in a Batman film, same way I doubt we'll ever get a Gothic fairytale version of Batman like Batman Returns again.

For a lot of casual fans, Schumacher's films blend together. I can't tell you how many of my friends accidentally confuse their titles or refer to "the one with The Riddler and Mr. Freeze". That's cause even though the campiness was dialed up in B&R, stylistically the movies were pretty much carbon copies of one another.

Contrast that with Burton and Nolan's films, all of which are vastly different from one another which makes each of them stand out more.

Going forward my fear is that we're just going to start getting a Batman on film that is "JUST LIKE TEH COMICS" and as a result we'll get less great cinematic adaptations of the character.

 

Rises will be appreciated once audiences start seeing a sci-fi Batman on screen fighting aliens/gods alongside super-powered heroes. As much as it will be "visual eye candy" i dont trust the writing or the "been there done that" vibe im getting. Im talking about the alien invasion plot. The Avengers 2.0 where billions have already seen a bunch of superheroes cross-over together in a movie.

It doesn't matter how much i prefer to see a JLA over most of Marvel's B-Team (what i call the current Avengers). Or how much they can get away with in marketing Bats & Supes together. It's still been done before. And before Justice League comes out, around the same time, and then shortly after...Sony will be trying their version and so will Fox. Avengers 2 will be out earlier too.

Once audiences see this over the next several years, they'll start to appreciate Rises and the trilogy as a whole. The stripped down nature of it all, at least in comparison to what we'll be getting. Because as huge as the scope was for Rises, it seems like the future of Batman will not be representing the idea of "less is more".

Audiences react well to that sort of thing, i get that. Avengers, Star Wars, etc. Im sure the reboot will fall in line with that stuff. But i really dont see much substance taking place in the newer movies. Man Of Steel had traces of it, but that's what they were: bits of substance that were rushed along so Snyder can get to the "cool" and "awesome" and "badass" sequences. The only real words he likes to use to describe his movies.

Nolan's movies were more than that. Rises included. There was a different level of acting and film-making that Zack will never be able to touch with Batfleck no matter how hard he tries. Even if the Batfleck looks like the coolest batman to ever touch a screen.

 

Probably seen the same way it is now, mostly liked, so i don't think it's that underrated

 

I think it will grow in a positive way, but will have that Batman Returns stigma at the very least. I don't hold Rises in the same regard that I do BB or TDK, but there is something about it that keeps me going back to watch it, so in that way it's not too far off from the first two installments.

 

i see wat you're saying and agree with you first 2 paragraphs, but I disagree after that. I think the only thing audiences will feel as far as retrospect goes with dkr is that they will wish that the batman from that film is the one that is in (wat will become) the dccu.

the only film that's "realistic" to me in that trilogy is tdk. even that one is hard to believe to occur in a real world, but more so than the other two. I don't care how many people say nolan or nolan himself says his batman is in a world with nothing supernatural going on; i don't buy it. batman is much bigger than nolan even when it is his own film. he may have tried to get his audiences to buy that his batman is grounded in reality, and maybe it is, but even that reality is a reality of superheroes and that will never ever be 100% grounded in reality.

 

If general opinions around the Net are anything to go by I don't think it will hold up as well as the first two movies. It's been out for over a year and a half now. Plenty of time for the dust to have settled. But I am always seeing people bashing it, or saying it doesn't measure up to the first two movies at all, and lets the trilogy down.

 

Rarely does any popular movie grow a better reputation.

Usually a movie is popular and most people say it's great then there's a backlash which claims the movie is overrated and the reputation goes down hill. That's the cycle.

The only way you can break the cycle is if the director makes a classic or legendary film recently. That will elevate all their past work in eyes of the public.

 

I find opinions are always swaying with the Batman films. When the Begins first came out, so many people were swept up in the hype and were completely throwing the Burton movies under the bus, calling them cartoony, etc. Anyone who still defended the Burton movies was called a "Burtonite" (I'm still convinced that's how the the whole "Nolanite" thing started).

But now? I see more Burton fans than ever. And more people who just bash all the Nolan films outright than ever. 20 years later you still have a healthy amount of fans calling Batman Returns their favorite Batman film despite all the other fans it alienated. The general public still seems to think of it as a good, albeit weird movie for the most part.

That's how Rises will most likely go down. Generally considered a good movie by the general public despite TDK being considered the favorite of the trilogy. More popular than Begins with the general public too. Meanwhile it will always be divisive with the fanbase, much like Returns which is still debated 22 years later. You can always find people bashing something...it's the internet. TDK-bashing was beginning to run rampant pre-2012 too.

On top of that, Nolan is likely to go on to continue making great movies, so his overall filmography will probably continue to be held in high esteem. And I still doubt the trilogy as a whole will be surpassed in the genre any time soon, so there's that. The trilogy actually feels more complete to me now that there's a more divisive film in it, haha. The honeymoon phase is over and it feels like a real trilogy that actually happened- not some invincible, untouchable entity like people used to look at it, not beyond criticism, but on the whole still a great body of work.

Besides, if we had gotten a different movie that differed drastically from the TDKR that folks like shauner, TheShape, DACrowe and myself have come to deeply appreciate- maybe we'd be the ones criticizing it constantly and creating that division. Perhaps it just wasn't possible to follow TDK while ending the story of Batman without alienating some segment of the fanbase. I was expecting a divisive movie since the moment I heard "EPIC CONCLUSION" and I know I wasn't alone in that suspicion. I felt the backlash coming, I just hoped I wouldn't be part of it. Luckily I wasn't.

 

Definitely man. I remember being so pumped about the 8 year jump, thinking that Batman had all these adventures with Joker and different rogues. Then i hear it's 8 years of absence. And i was like huh? But that literally lasted like a few minutes because im a huge Nolan fan even outside of his Batman movies. So i trusted his vision. Plus once i saw TDKR, i felt there was a gap there where bats could be active.

I remember "epic conclusion" like it was yesterday. I remember being disappointed that Hugo Strange or Black Mask weren't in the movie after all once the casting of Hathaway/Hardy were announced. But as a person who read Knightfall when i was like 10, i was pumped as hell for Bane. And i always knew Catwoman was destined for the third movie.

My point is that if it wasn't Nolan i probably would have dread TDKR in the months going into it. I would have had a negative attitude. "I wanted this, but it seems like im getting something else now".

But i trusted Nolan regardless (i know a lot of people don't care for his filmography as much as i do). I started getting pumped beyond belief leading into July of 2012. I embraced the fact that it was going to be a hard ending for a lot of fans, and a real ending at that (at least for Bruce as Batman). I knew he wouldn't be Batman anymore by the end of it. It had to be or else i would have been as dissapointed as Milost (maybe not that much!) or Shikamaru. The 8 years off, the happy ending, the nod to Robin, the bones and stuff, i ended up loving every minute of it. While fans didn't. And that's who really didnt accept those moments, the fanbase. But what's ironic is how TDKR has the most comic book influences ive ever seen in a Bat flick. The eight years off? It references TDKReturns. Happy ending? It's something the comics would love to do (a closed ending) but they just can't because of the medium. And from what ive heard, Alfred dreams up a scenario that was very close to what happens in the film back in the golden age. It's also a nod to A Tale of Two Cities and Returns' ending. Blake tells Bruce he knows he's Batman? Tim Drake did this and i still haven't read "Nine Lives" but i hear Private Detective Dick Grayson does the same thing in that graphic novel.

All of those things were hard for fans to swallow but it happened in the comics. Even if they weren't exactly like the comic, with a little change on a scene or something. The inspiration is there. Just like Begins had nothing to do with the actual Year One story or how the Holiday Killer wasn't walking around TDK.

Rises might get the Batman Returns treatment. But i just see this trilogy being looked at as a whole piece. Especially since Nolan has many more fantastic movies ahead of him, which will only strengthen Rises.

 

I think it is perfectly understood as a great superhero movie by the GA.

With fans, I suspect that after we've had a few entires of a supposedly more "faithful" (more fantasy) Ben Affleck Batman series, they will not feel so ruffled that Nolan strayed from the source material here. Kind how by the time TDKR came around, fanboys quit *****ing about the Burton changes and accepted them as really good movies.

I do think that the Nolan Batman movies as a whole will stand above the entire superhero genre as the years pass as memorable. So, in that sense, for those who love the history of film, they will live on very well.

 

I think it'll grow in the way that Batman Returns's reputation has. You'll either like it or you won't. Not much in the way of middle ground. Both films did some pretty ballsy stuff for comic books. You had Penguin planning to kill some infants/kids, while Bane had his social revolution. Much like Shauner, I'm of the opinion that people will start seeing TDKR through the nostalgia goggles once the next line of Batfilms starts retreading what's been done by other comic films. I'm not sure if I'll be here for those, though. TDKR and the TDKT as a whole have given me pretty much what I want from a comic film. I'm interested in Ninja Turtles and Hellboy, should Del Toro return to it, but otherwise I don't see a comic film coming anywhere near to topping TDKR and the TDKT.

The thing I really like about the happy ending isn't that it was done just for the sake of doing something different. I really felt like Bruce earned it with this film.

 

I don't usually like to concern myself with questions like these. It is a complete shot in the dark. You never know what the future holds and there are way too many factors to take into account. That goes for both movies I like and movies I don't like.

I can't comment on TDKR's future. However, I do think to a certain degree (and like I said, there is no way of knowing this for sure until time tells) that TDKR will hurt BB & TDK in the eyes of future generations. Ironically, I have this belief due to, as Shauner stated, the trilogy being seen as a "whole" in the future. I think the whole "epic conclusion to this epic three-act trilogy that was always meant to be a three-act trilogy" thing will bleed into BB and TDK in the future and affect the way newcomers will look at these films.

For example, let's take the ending. TDK's ending blew everyone away back when the film came out. No one was expecting him to quit/get depressed/lose hope/whatever way you want to interpret it after that. People walked out of theatres saying things like "Wow, that ending is amazing and it just shows how much Batman is willing to keep going" and "Wow, it was so impressive how Batman took his grief over Rachel and transformed it into something positive". Future generations will say different things due to having foresight. They'll see the ending and might think "So Batman survives this night, disappears, and then quits that same night/after his energy project" (depending on whatever you believe). They might see Rachel's death and think "Oh, so this is part of why he is so depressed and out-of-the-game at the start of TDKR". Cool little easter eggs like "You and I will do this forever" will have nowhere near the same impact. "I don't think there will come a time when you no longer need Batman" won't have the same impact. The list goes on.

Either that or the trilogy as a whole will become the most conspiracy-theorized film franchise since Star Wars. In a way, that is already happening. There are tons of theories flowing out there over what Lucas originally planned, what he didn't plan, whether or not the prequel trilogy was always a go, whether or not they were going to be different and Lucas just sold out, etc. Everyone has their own little theory of the history behind Star Wars. The old-school fans in particular often make statements such as "You don't know but I do because I was there when Star Wars came out and kept up with news, etc.". I can see the Nolan franchise becoming just that, with the milost's/Joker's/Shikamaru's of today saying the same thing to the younger generations - "You don't know, I know because I was there, Goyer originally said x, Nolan said y, Bale said this about Robin" . In that sense, I guess this trilogy has a lot more in common with the OT than all of us thought.

Me personally, I am really happy to have seen these films in a time where I wouldn't have foresight or have to be bombarded by so many theories. I think everyone should appreciate that, regardless of what their opinion on TDKR is (and by extension, of the whole franchise).

 

Good post.

You may be right but i also don't really see the problem with Joker saying "maybe you and i are destined to do this forever". The key word is maybe, and it's something Joker thought would happen. But as the audience we all knew nothing would come out of that line (even back in 08') because Heath was dead. They weren't going to recast. I always took that line as a reference to the comics anyway and it's quite obvious by the end of the movie that whatever Joker predicted was dead wrong. If Two-Face was caught in the act, it would be easier for Joker to escape to have his endless battle with Batman because freaks would be inspired and run the show. All of that was shut down by the actual ending of TDK. Joker wants it to become like the comics/villain of the week scenario. But Batman/Gordon shut him down by lying to Gotham. But the Joker can not win.

Bale said that about Robin? Yeah. And we never got Dick Grayson. We never got the boy wonder, traditional Robin who suits up as a sidekick.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what we thought at that moment in 2008. It's irrelevant. TDKR tells us it's different, and then it's up to everybody to decide on whether they like the direction or not. Future generations will still watch TDK for the first time, the trilogy in order, and theyll think what they want to think when the end scene comes. And like us, they'll watch TDKR and be able to decide on whether they like it or not.

Ill tell you what, the majority of people would rather a concise trilogy like the original Star Wars, LOTR, TDK-T, Godfather...than a franchise that continues on and on until there's recasts and repetition. A trilogy that has a beginning, middle and end even if fans don't like one of the movies as much..has a certain appeal to it. I dont think Rises will do damage to the trilogy at all because just by looking at things like Rotten Tomatoes & IMDB, you can see that the majority enjoyed the dark knight and rises way more than Begins. Despite fanboys on messageboards claiming that Begins is the best. Or that Begins/Knight tower over the finale.

It's all going to blend into one story. For better or worse i guess.

 

Blending the whole thing into a story isn't the issue as long as it is good and consistent. Which TDKR is not, in my opinion.

 

Sure, but like you said it's just an opinion. And it's actually not a popular one despite messageboards made out of pure batman fans knocking the crap out of the movie. The majority think it's a great movie whether they liked TDK more or not. Look at Jedi compared to Empire. After all these years it didn't even matter that people were disappointed with it compared to Empire. The trilogy is looked at as one item.

 

Do they?

If so, please compile the information that factors that in. I'm curious to see that outside here.

I told Anno this when he'd play that obnoxious card. The REAL majority are folks that don't care and moved on years ago. That's the majority, not us over enthusiastic fan boys.

Return of the Jedi was ripped when it first came out. I remember because I loved it as a kid but couldn't understand why people were criticizing it.

When I got older and more mature, I realized what it was lacking. The kid in me couldn't see with rose tinted glasses because it was "the epic conclusion to the Star Wars saga". It was silly and dumb. You don't have to go very far to find ROTJ get tarred and feathered. A lot of people seem to think it was the beginning of the end. The first step into the prequels with Lucas more interested in studio and merchandise building than actual fantasy stories.


People have this weird tendency to have this "box set" mentality that production companies just love. "Oh man, three movies, epic trilogy yo", "look at that deluxe set of three". Three is the magic number, there's this off mob mentality of lumping together all the movies (even the crappy ones) as a whole. Shika's dead on in that regard, which is a shame, because after it settles in people's guts for a couple of years, I could see TDKR souring Dark Knight's reputation. Begins is already like the red headed step child that people don't really talk about in favor of it's more contrived remake, TDKR.

Ah the power of marketing and promotion.

 

ROTJ was my favorite of the Original Trilogy as a kid. I also couldn't understand all the criticism it got. I still really like the film even today (I don't think it is the huge mess people make it out to be), but it is definitely the weakest of the three.

Milost is right. The "majority" are the people who don't care. They saw the film, they liked it, and they will rarely ever talk or think about it ever again (if at all). You never randomly hear the average Joe on the street go on a rant over all of Nolan's films. Only comic book fans, Batman fans in general, and movie buffs are the ones who do that.

There really is a box set mentality and with films becoming more and more like television, it can get much much worse. Almost everything is a franchise today.

 

A) Box-office numbers
B) Rotten Tomatoes having an 88 percent rating. With an audience rating of 90 percent. Compared to Begins which is at 85 percent even though the audience rating is higher.
C) IMDB has Rises placed at #47 in their top 250. While Begins is at #104.
D)Word of mouth both in where i live personally and online. Even though message boards contain the true fanboys that pick it apart.

Id rather a box set mentality than just see loosely connected sequels like the Bond movies or sequel after sequel with actor changes and director changes until the lines get blurred and/or the franchise is run into the ground in the same way Burton's movies led into Shumachers.

But as for the complaints on Rises specifically? I only see it when i go on a messageboard. Or when a hardcore fanboy goes on some social media thing to talk smack. In the grand scheme of things, it's barely relevant. Sure word of mouth can be strong but it's only been a year and a half since the movie came out. Look at the hate 2001: A Space Odyssey or Bladerunner or Clockwork Orange received back in the day. Now look at how they're viewed. But i dont even think that's the case with Rises because the majority view it as a great movie that has very high ratings and reviews.

Like Shika just said, the majority are the people who liked it and didnt care so they moved on. There you go. The majority seemed to like it. So why would it damage the trilogy?

 

ROTJ is a solid B to me. It definitely has its shortcomings but overall it still hits the the right notes when it comes to wrapping up the Luke/Vader storyline. The Emperor's throne room is among my favorite stuff in the whole saga. I've criticized it in the past, but I still am a fan of the movie at the end of the day. If anything, it's reputation has gone up over the years in light of the prequels. Although, sure you do have some folks who cite it as the "beginning of the end".

Shika is right that it's a complete shot in the dark though. We can offer educated guesses based on how other movies fared with time but that's about it. No more or less of a thought experiment than a lot of the stuff that gets posted here.

I'll just add though that I think the inherent value of storytelling through the format of a trilogy gets downplayed a surprising amount here. Trilogies are a great format for telling an epic story. And when I say "epic" I don't mean it in the overused "epic w1n!" way obviously. The concept of a trilogy is much older than strictly being some sort of studio marketing scheme...heck it goes back to BC if you look at Aeschylus' Oedipus trilogy. And that's what a lot of this stuff comes down to anyway...taking old stories and making them new again. That's what George Lucas was able to tap into so strongly.

I look at all of this stuff as modern mythology- Star Wars, superheroes, LOTR...all this geek stuff. Trilogies are just an natural fit for this kind of thing. It's not always just a marketing scheme. Sure, you have some sets of three in the mix that I wouldn't necessarily classify as a "capital T" trilogy", like Raimi's Spider-Man movies. But for me, The Dark Knight Trilogy is my trilogy, my defining modern myth, my thing that I'll look back on fondly for years to come. And I know there are a lot of people my age who feel the same.