Do you see TDKR's reputation growing in future years?

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight Rises' started by Bruce Malone, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

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    You have to take into account though the fact that Bane was a brand spanking new character in the mythos in 93 who was given a huge "push" (for any wrestling marks here) right from the getgo. It's understandable that he'd have some resistance to the idea back then. But the passage of time can be a factor.

    Besides, Dini himself ended up writing a great Bane cameo in one of my favorites, Over the Edge. So he might've warmed to the character over the years.

    As for Kevin Smith...that's just classic Smith insecurity. The guy turns on his OWN movies just to fit in and be part of the cool crowd (Jersey Girl). And I'm a fan of the guy, but it's really funny to me how impressionable and flip floppy he is in that way. I'm sure he'd just chalk it up to being fat and wanting people to like him. :oldrazz:
     
  2. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Thanks for trying, Batlobster. I'm normally a bit skeptical of Wiki as a source without a link to back it up, but I'm willing to take it at it's word.

    Agreed.

    Although I don't think Smith has ever called it the best Batman movie. He always says that's TDK.
     
  3. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

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    Yeah, Smith ranks them TDK, TDKR, BB. He never seemed to be too in love with BB, although he says after TDK came out he had a new appreciation for it.
     
  4. shauner111 Registered

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    The only good stuff he's said about Begins is that he was surprised by how "earnest" it was. And he loved the cast.
     
  5. DACrowe Registered

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    Yes, except the redesigns were not clearly influenced by the movie designs his character just happened to have in the intervening year. Where there's smoke, there's fire. If you think it is a massive coincidence that other than the mask, the AO Bane looks very similar to the Nolan Bane, I am sure that the use of a waterfall for the Batcave that the Bat-plane flies through also was a coincidence and not an evocation. Yet, if I mention the Shreck Cats in AC, I doubt there would be as much pushback at noting a blatant influence.

    A black vest yes, but not the lighter colored military vest. I really don't know why you are so against admitting that Bane's redesign was influenced by Rises. The comics are taking note too. It is not unlike the addition to scarring on the Joker's face (taken to an extreme in the comics) after TDK. It's simply there. It could be a "coincidence," but so too could the similarities between the Art Deco style of TAS and BR or how their blonde haired Catwoman looked an awful lot like Michele Pfeiffer, even if they left behind the stitches.

    Not really. I have always liked the idea of Bane: born in a prison, fulfilling his father's sentence; rises up to destroy the Batman.

    But his execution has always been left wanting to me. I never liked the pro-wrestler get-up that dates it to the '90s, and the execution of the first volume of Knightfall was always mediocre to me. Too much padding with an exceedingly simple plan that even Robin figured out, but Batman still kept chasing the Bane's goons, knowing that it was meant to weaken him. It made Batman look dumb (not unlike underestimating Bane's fighting abilities in Rises, to be fair), and was kind of boring. I always preferred the third arc of Knightfall when Batman comes back and challenges Jean-Paul, and the whole Bat-legacy that is at play with the use of Nightwing myself.

    I honestly think Dixon and Nolan's weak rendition of Bane is why the character who "broke the bat" was not taken seriously by other writers and left to languish for decades until Nolan revitalized him by returning him to his roots and drastically improving his costume and schemes.

    I prefer a Bane who's plan involved more than just letting goons out of Arkham Asylum (something Joker and Scarecrow do every Tuesday), didn't look like a Mexican wrestler, and most of all had a broader goal post-back breaking. I find the comics rather lazily fall back on the "and then the villain becomes a crime lord cliché!" to the detriment of certain characters, such as Two-Face. Bane was also one of them, as after he breaks the Bat, he just wants to be another gangster? Yawn. I prefer the one who is a false prophet populist with echoes of Robespierre wanting to tear the civilization down via military conquest. It is rather unique to most superhero stories, particularly on film, and allows Bane to be something of a warrior poet, as opposed to just a guy who had a "Step One" and then no follow through, which would define his entire existence in the comics.

    You assume that Nolan actually thinks Bane learning the identity from the LOS or not climbing out of the pit makes him weak. In all honesty, it doesn't. The character on the page is one-note. I like many found the comic book Bane boring.

    Anyway, I could not find the direct quote. But here is a brief bit on the producers of TAS not liking Bane: http://batman.wikia.com/wiki/Bane_(DC_Animated_Universe)

    And somehow, I believe them, considering Bane never got the back-break in TAS, and was always treated as a second fiddle and appeared in few episodes. Then he got much of the same treatment in AA and AC. It is an evident pattern.

    He is presented as steroid-addicted jock in one, the same in the other, and--OH NO!--a henchman for a woman in the last. The woman bit doesn't bug me, but some fanboys really get their wires crossed when they think about how a woman could be presented as Bane's equal around here.

    In any event, in TAS he comes to Gotham because whatsherface wants to impress Thorne and is nothing but a hired gun. He is subservient, rash, and ultimately easily defeated. He only appears in a few episodes after that, and the only one where he seemed threatening in turned out to be a dream that Barbara had about her father.
     
  6. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    You are putting two and two together and coming up with five. The only, repeat only similarity between AO's Bane and Hardy's Bane is a black jacket. Nothing more. The mask is not the same. The vest is not the same. The voice is not the same.

    Apart from a black jacket he's not wearing anything Bane has not worn before pre TDKR.

    Definitely not since it's not the first time the Batcave has had a waterfall covered entrance.

    That's because they are so unique it would be impossible for it not to be a blatant influence.

    He wasn't wearing a light colored military vest in AO. What are you talking about?

    I'm not. If it were true I'd happily admit it. I made a blog about Nolan influences on comics and media: http://tdkinfluence.blogspot.ie/

    I'd happily include Bane in there if I thought it was legit.

    The difference is TAS admitted it was a Pfeiffer influence forced on them by WB to help promote BR. Same with the DeVito Penguin design. Neither of them were Timm's choice. WB made him do it.

    I think you were reading a different story. Batman didn't chase Bane's goons. He was putting away all the Arkham escapees Bane let loose on the city. To quote Batman in it, what should he do sit back and let lunatics run rampage over the city?

    But you are seemingly supportive of a Batman who's 8 years out of practice with a death wish, and straps on a leg brace to face Bane. Yeah, that's such a better characterization of Batman.

    I think you have some kind of revisionist history of the character in your mind or something. The character has always been treated seriously. Sure he had some stinker stories along the way, but what Batman villain hasn't? Even Joker's had his share of them. It doesn't mean DC are not treating him seriously.

    So let me see if I got this straight; You prefer a Bane who's plan involved killing a whole city, and committing suicide himself for a villain who hated him, just because he cared for his daughter. A Bane who never escaped from the worst prison on earth. A Bane who never figured out Batman's identity. A Bane who had no reason to have a personal hatred against Batman. A Bane who for all intents purposes was a lackey to Talia. In other words you have a preference for a watered down version of Bane who doesn't measure up to half of what his comic book counterpart is. There is not one thing about Hardy's Bane that is more impressive than the comic book Bane.

    Of course it makes him weak. In what way doesn't it make him weak? Those two acts display the true inner strength of Bane's character as well as his remarkable intelligence.

    Two vital Bane traits Nolan's Bane didn't have. He was a second hand LOS reject.

    That doesn't prove a thing. If the Joker was never allowed kill anyone, or cripple Batgirl, or bash Robin's head in with a crowbar, or any of the infamous evil acts he did in the comics , then Bane is not going to be allowed break Batman's back. He was never treated as a second fiddle. He had one episode in BTAS where he was the main villain hired by Rupert Thorne to get rid of Batman.

    The only other episode he featured prominently in was 'Over the Edge' and that episode was a dream.

    He is not presented as a steroid addicted jock. You never even read the story have you?

    Batman and Robin doesn't count. It was an abomination of a movie that pissed all over every Batman character in it, save for Alfred.

    The third one was BTAS, where he was written as a credible threat and villain. Self sufficient who was hired because he was the best.

    DaCrowe, whip out your BTAS DVDs and watch that episode again. Thorne's assistant does not hire Bane to impress her boss. She hires him because Thorne is having trouble with Batman and to quote her "They say your help is the best money can buy".

    In his episode he beats the snot out of Croc, studies Batman, kidnaps Robin, and beats seven shades out of Batman before being defeated. In what way isn't that an impressive display of Bane's character for a Saturday morning cartoon under censorship restraints?

    Like I said you have a revisionist memory for Bane it seems.
     
    #256 The Joker, Feb 11, 2014
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  7. Shikamaru Registered

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    TDKR's Bane has nothing on comic book Bane, both in characterization and abilities.

    Also, the batplane going through a waterfall being a Nolan influence is a huge stretch.
     
  8. milost Registered

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    Joker, you killed it. Great post.

    DACrowe, might I suggest reading Vengeance of Bane, KnightFall either for your first time or again. You clearly have a misunderstanding or prejudice against a characterization you're not familiar with. The character depicted in those stories is brilliant and a self made man. A far cry from what Schumacher and Nolan created.


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    #258 milost, Feb 11, 2014
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  9. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

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    I love both Vengeance of Bane and movie Bane. Go figure.

    I'd argue that the point of Bane being self made is to mirror Bruce. So the way I see it, comics Bane is as self-made as comics Bruce is...which is a lot more than movie Bruce is. But for the movies it made sense to tie them both to Ra's as a means of accomplishing that parallel.

    Besides, life in the pit had obviously toughened Bane up before he even met Ra's. Then he spends years traveling the world, becoming a world-class mercenary that's on the CIA's radar. Mercernary...that means armed conflict. You don't get that sort of reputation through just snapping necks and breaking backs. Sure, Ra's was a mercenary...before he found the League. Now, in Begins we do see a few of the scarf-wearing, armed mercenaries in the monastery. And you have the LoS operatives who infiltrate Gotham as armed police and SWAT. But it's primarily a band of ninjas. So what gave him the skillset to be such a high-level mercenary? Did Ra's teach him to be a military tactician? Highly, highly doubtful. And look at his armor, his overall attire. According to Lindy Hemming herself it's meant to be something that's been pieced together over time from various parts of the world (which means that's the look Nolan told her he wanted to go for). So to me, the self-made aspect is still there. And the deliberate shift from representing the LoS as an army of ninjas into an army of soldiers/mercenaries seems like a pretty blatant way of emphasizing the difference between the old league and the new league (with the only logical explanation for that being Bane's influence I might add.)

    Either way, it's all inferred backstory. If back in 2005, fans were comfortable inferring that maybe Ra's was actually immortal and not just metaphorically immortal, despite the fact that there was absolutely no precedent in the film for magic or Laz pits, then I'm pretty comfortable inferring that post-LoS Bane spent years forging himself into becoming this legendary international mercenary, attracting his own cult of followers that were willing to die for him. Only in this case, there's plenty of precedent in the film to believe that's exactly what the intended backstory is.
     
    #259 BatLobster, Feb 11, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014
  10. shauner111 Registered

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    :applaud

    He's a self-made man in this version, just in a different way to the comics. A lot of this happened post-prison/post-LOS.
     
  11. milost Registered

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    If we can infer all that, then I guess I can infer that Bane had all those experiences from Talia's worldwide travels giving him the opportunity and finances to do all that.

    Still doesn't make him compelling. Talia took his mercenary father origin. Talia took his escape-on-their own prison break. Thanks to Talia, Bane learned all he knew from Ra's, who, yeah, was a mercenary (he wasn't just a ninja). Anyway you look at it, what we're shown on screen is a lesser characterization than what was in the comics. Sure, we can spin fan fiction to make him appear just as good, but what we get is inevitably a lackey. A follower, not a leader. He wasn't the child of the exiled mercenary. He didn't escape the prison. He didn't train and learn on his own in the prison. Talia and Ra's need to be added to the equation for everything Bane accomplishes. The comic version? He was actually BORN in hell. The tide prison is a lot more brutal and frightening than the prison pit (that doesn't even look bad).

    Also, before we get the "well, Ra's trained Bruce too", there were years where Bruce was on his own and finding himself without the help of an Al Ghul. From learning all those different MMA fighting styles, to learning about crime, to getting his own gear. We're shown all of this. With Bane? That's basically ALL Talia. The origin, the father, the escape, the training, the plan. Talia even helped make the Nuclear bomb. Bane was literally the grunt that did the heavy lifting. No different than Schumacher Bane being the body guard placing bombs around for Freeze and Ivy. The difference? This Bane actually had a brain and a somewhat understandable voice that didn't just say a word or two. He's a far cry from the character depicted above. In fact, Talia is closer to comic Bane than movie Bane.

    The most important thing however is this Bane has no honor or moral code. Nor a love for children and innocence (save for Talia, AGAIN). Something Bane has shared with Batman for decades (they've even become uneasy ally's for a few stories). There's no such thing with this pathetic suicide bomber. I remember back around trailer 2 in the spring of 2012, there was that pic of Bane above Bruce in the prison cell. Everyone was gushing saying that Bane looked to have pity in his eyes and actually felt compassion for him or something. Then comes the actual scene in the film and it was anything but that. Bane in this film was just an evil, brainwashed, cult follower being led by the little girl that saved him from the pit. He's pathetic.
     
    #261 milost, Feb 11, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014
  12. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Well said.

    I can't wrap my head around anyone thinking Bane in TDKR comes even close to being what Bane of the comics is. Bane in TDKR wasted away in a prison pit all his life. He never had the strength to escape. He had to be saved by someone else. He was living in the shadow of another villain who hated him, willing to kill himself to complete the work of a man who couldn't stand him. That is the definition of pathetic.

    As for his so called military tactics and intelligence. The brilliant mastermind Bane comes up with the genius idea to shoot up the stock exchange and then do fake trades in Bruce Wayne's name to bankrupt him. The only problem with that is the stock exchange has tons of cameras and would immediately void those trades.

    The Pit somewhere in the middle east where he sends Bruce. Forget the whole broken back thing, no one can escape the pit with protrusions coming out of the wall every 2 feet. Except of course a 12 yr old girl.

    He drags out the siege for 5 months for what? To torture Gotham? What a load of baloney. Killing Gotham on the spot wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference. It was just a convenient time slot to give Bruce time to recover, build himself up and escape and come back to win. "No, I came back to stop you". The worst comeback line ever.

    Yeah if this is a clever self made Bane, then I'm the King of England.
     
  13. milost Registered

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    I still don't understand how that Stock Exchange BS passed the revisions stages of the screenplay.
     
  14. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

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    So let me get this straight though milost...it was cool for people to spin fan fiction in their heads that Ra's was THE immortal Ra's of the comics in Batman Begins, right? Enough so that they were actually pissed off when they were shown otherwise? That's what I thought.

    So go ahead, spin whatever fan fiction you want...it is left ambiguous after all. You go ahead and infer what makes sense to support your "Bane is just a helpless lackey" view, and I'll infer what makes sense to support my view that Bane was an extremely formidable adversary with a tremendous aptitude for military strategy that in no way would he have learned from being trained as a LoS ninja. Bane was for all intents and purposes the general, even if Talia was the "president". That's hardly pathetic, at least not in the sense that you're using the word. The fact that his worldview is so distorted to the point that he thinks what he's doing is righteous makes both him and Talia pathetic. But in the tragic sense of the word, not the, "Wow what a pathetic writing choice by Goyer and Nolan" sense.


    So does it make Bruce less of a detective in TDK that the whole "fingerprints" sequence actually makes no sense at all because the fingerprint would be on the shell casing and not the shattered bullet?

    Sometimes it's important to step back and apply some "movie logic" to things. Yes, these films tried to be more realistic but they were never 100% airtight, everything makes 100% sense and would happen JUST like that in the real world realistic.
     
    #264 BatLobster, Feb 11, 2014
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  15. Shikamaru Registered

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    Ras' immortality was intentionally left ambiguous. It was more of a nod to comic book fans. It was Nolan's way of saying "I'm not really doing that but for those who want that, here you go". Bane was a whole different case. In the third act, they went out of their way to reveal he is a pathetic coward with no honor.
     
  16. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

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    But I'm not talking about the third act. I'm talking about his time as an "Ex" LoS'er, that we learn about in the first act and never get the full picture of. That is also left ambiguous, even after the third act reveal.
     
    #266 BatLobster, Feb 11, 2014
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  17. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    That's different. That's comic book science. Fear toxin from a blue flower doesn't exist, but Crane is still a genius for inventing it in Begins. Smilex doesn't exist but that doesn't mean Joker is not a chemistry genius inventing it in Batman '89.

    Logically even in a comic book world, the whole stock exchange ploy doesn't make a lick of sense.
     
  18. shauner111 Registered

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    What stock exchange BS?

    Oh, and i say stop comparing everything to the comics. Jesus. It's not the comics, get over it guys. There's elements of the Bane from the comics in there but it is its own thing. It's movie Bane. Don't like it? Cool, but why does it have to be like the source material? Just read Vengeance of Bane. Ras and Talia didn't look as exotic as they do in the comics, there's no Lazarus Pit, Scarecrow has a sack on his head, Joker has scars, Catwoman has no whip and drives an enhanced motorcycle, Bane didn't have a damn teddy bear nor did he escape a prison by himself, blah blah blah. Making your own versions of characters is more creative than sitting there doing a literal interpretation of the comics. God! All this talk is making me appreciate Tim Burton so much more now. At least he had the balls to take Catwoman, Joker and Penguin and do his own thing with them while retaining a few key elements. And ive dissed Burton's Catwoman and Penguin a lot in the past...but milost and Joker...you guys are just making me appreciate Burton even more!!

    Id rather Bane be half badass, half pathetic than just see some comic book Bane where he's nothing but a tough, intelligent guy who is 100 percent self-made, knows everything, doesn't show feelings anymore, just some wrecking machine who is untouchable because he's "self-made". That's cool for the comics. Ill read em'! But id rather see a director try something else. Making him a bit pathetic, making Bruce be the one who is stronger in the end...even making a younger female stronger than the big muscle dude...sorry but i find that more interesting when im watching a film.

    As a fan i asked for "No Batman and Robin Bane", no Luchadore mask wearing, one-dimensional steroid dude who has zero intelligence. I got what i asked for. Which was something very different from Batman & Robin and still not an exact copy of 90s comic book Bane. If i want the comics, ILL READ THE COMICS. But it still had the connections to the prison upbringing and the Al Ghuls. But it's turned on its head a little bit.

    Im satisified.

    Sometimes you guys are really fun, but today you're giving me a headache!
     
  19. Travesty Registered

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  20. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

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    It's comic book science based on a very apparent gaping hole in common sense, every day logic though.
     
  21. shauner111 Registered

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  22. Travesty Registered

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  23. milost Registered

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    You're bringing up "the immortal Ra's" thing because Shika and me mentioned it yesterday. We never even said that was the case, just that it was open ended and that TDKR kills any mystique or ambiguity with Ra's by depicting him in TDKR. That's all we stated. Immortality was just an example of what Ra's could have been, not my personal inference.

    This thing with Bane though is a closed book with the flashbacks and information we're given (specifically with the Talia twist) alone. If Bane was handled more like the Joker, then sure, infer what you want. But he wasn't those things considering how he was handled. Throughout the entire film, we're meant to believe that Bane is the child we see just like in the comics. The way it's told in the prison is BS too the way they purposely describe it without the use of "him", "her", or "Bane". They can rehibilitate and care for Bruce but they can't tell him about Bane and Talia for those 5 months because they "wouldn't want that story told"? C'mon, that's terrible. That all gets taken back though when Talia is revealed. That wasn't Bane. Bane wasn't even a child. He was an adult that was left to rot in the prison. The little girl who escaped brought her daddy back and pulled him out. The daddy trained Bane, then ended up despising him and kicked their asses out. Talia worked her way up to the top being one of the wealthy and orchestrated this crazy scheme. Bane did the muscle work. Even Batman is shocked to learn that all the information he learned about Bane was really about someone else. Bane didn't have the strength to escape, he wasn't Batman's equal. He has no code or honor. He was a pathetic suicide bomber for a worthless cause that gets blown away and thrown into a corner like a worthless rag doll.

    That characterization is nothing like comic Bane. He doesn't even get any ambiguity because Talia is right beside him taking his origins and everything. If Talia and the pit story weren't there, I'd agree with you. Infer what you want. But we don't. He was "teh protectah". Nothing more than a body guard that was glorified to be something more than he was till that twist.
     
  24. milost Registered

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    And fine, I'll admit it. As much as I love the Dark Knight, the bullet thing is pretty bad/awful. Sky hook and even sonar are buyable, but not that bullet.

    Still, that scene was a few seconds tops. TDKR's Stock Exhange is a huge set piece and sequence in the movie that leads to even bigger plot points. The bullet in Dark Knight is no where near as massive. It's literally shown and done in three quick scenes.
     
  25. BatLobster Trailer Timewarper

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    All I'm gonna say without dragging this out further is that you're still making an inference there if you're saying that Bane and Talia traveled the world together and always stuck together in all those post-LoS years. It's also never stated that he kicked Talia out, just that she held a grudge against her father. Nowhere in the film is that stated, so you're making plenty of your own inferences here which proves my point that there is some ambiguity there. Your version of events is never how I interpreted it, and long before I started debating TDKR 'for sport', I always got the impression that they were estranged for a time and then reunited, based on all the information present in the film. How is Bane being "her protector" if she's just following him around the world while he does his mercenary gig? What protection does she need at that point? She's a trained assassin by then. And why does he need to be a mercenary if she has all that money? These are the things that lead to me to believe they were on their own separate paths for years and then reunited by a common goal later.

    And the thing is, I'm not even saying my interpretation is the "correct" interpretation. It's the one that I like to think is true, but all I'm saying is that it's a readily available possibility, similar to the Ra's thing in Begins. Only this doesn't break the rules of physics established in the universe, and even has some concrete clues to back it up. It's just that when it comes to this topic, you refuse to acknowledge anything that might make Bane seem like less of a lackey. But at the end of the day, that's fine if it's your interpretation.


    I'll buy that. But plot is a separate discussion, I was discussing those two things in relation to Batman and Bane's skillsets and how we're meant to think of them.
     
    #275 BatLobster, Feb 11, 2014
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2014

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