Do you wish Katie was in TDK, or do you wish Maggie was in BB?

Discussion in 'The Dark Knight' started by Rocketman, Apr 5, 2011.

  1. The Endless WE are Groot

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    So what if Joker fancied her? He saw her as his potential new "art project". We also see Napier is a bit of a pretentious yuppie who was into art before he became Joker. That carried over to when he became Joker but in a twisted way. Vicki was an artist and in some weird way he respected that.
     
  2. Fudgie Registered

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    Nope she said "Look at the look on the face, it was the same in front of city hall". Not the alley way.

    Soz.

    Heh no way Jose. It was a cheese fest that's why you never see Bruce Wayne scenes like that because it ain't how Bruce Wayne acts. Even campy Batman never has Bruce act like a doof like that.
     
  3. Fudgie Registered

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    Joker shouldn't be taking fancies to random blond chicks he thinks look tasty.

    Nope he never even saw her work until he had arranged to meet her in the museum. He saw her pic ages before this and was all:

    [​IMG]
     
  4. CountOrlok Registered

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    He wrote one story on Batman. One.

    Joker didn't know that.

    Not necessarily. All Joker knew about what Knox knew was in his story on Batman. And that Vicki was the "photographer working with Knox".

    He does that **** 'cause he's Joker.

    Even if knew Batman was dead, what about the cops?

    Again, he's Joker, he says does stuff like that all the time.
     
  5. The Endless WE are Groot

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    Aaaaand the problem with that is? Vicki Vale was ****ing hot. Why wouldn't her fancy her? And the delusional nut case that he is, why not think he could seduce her?

    Joker had more reason to fancy Vicki Vale than Bruce Wayne had to fancy Rachel Dawes.
     
    #305 The Endless, Apr 28, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  6. The Endless WE are Groot

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    She followed him into crime alley and took pictures of him putting roses down. Why are you denying this? Are we in bizarro world or something? She saw the significance that place had for him.


    He wasn't acting like a doof. He was acting like a real human being about to reveal the biggest secret of his life to someone.
     
  7. CountOrlok Registered

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    Yeah but look what he did to Alicia. He wanted to do that to Vicki too, and would have if Batman hadn't interrupted him.
     
  8. The Endless WE are Groot

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    Well yea, he wanted to make her his next "project".
     
  9. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Vicki: "I'm intrigued by Alex's giant bat stories"

    He didn't know her at all. But he knew Knox was the one with the tap on Batman, that's why he sent Bob after him in the first place.

    His only interest in Vicki was a romantic one.

    What does that even mean? Joker knew Knox by enough by reputation for his Batman stories to send Bob after him. He didn't know Vicki from Adam.

    No, he did it because he fancied her.

    What about them? He blocked them off by knocking the bell down and destroying the stairs. He didn't need Vicki for that.

    No, he doesn't. Name three instances where Joker is always going looking for new girls.
     
  10. Fudgie Registered

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    Gotham is full of hot chicks. Why isn't he out trying to get it on with all of them?

    Yup makes no sense. It ain't how the J-Man works.

    Pfffftttt no he didn't. Rachel was Bruce's best friend since they were kiddies. Joker didn't know nothin' about Vicki. He just saw a hot chick and was like yup I'll have her.

    Lame.

    Nope she followed him into the alley, saw him leave roses, got Knox to check out the alley. Knox found the info and told her what happened. She didn't recognize any look from the alley. She recognized some look he had at city hall.

    All this was fluff filler. We got the full picture from Brucie's flashback. All the Vicki stuff was just telling us his folks were killed there. We didn't need her to get to know that basic bit of info.

    Yup he was acting like a doof. Bruce doesn't stumble over his words and make stupid analogies about eating brekkie and going to a job. He just says what he wants to say if he really wants to say it.
     
  11. CountOrlok Registered

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    Nah, pretty sure the actual quote is: "I'm intrigued by Alex's giant bat story,"

    He didn't know that. Besides, maybe he was planning on going after Vicki first then Knox.

    You have no proof of that.

    Again, he only wrote one Batman story. That's all Joker knew.


    Again, provide proof.

    Not until he got to the top of the tower, though.

    No, I meant that he jokes around like that all the time. Hence the name, "Joker". :cwink:
     
  12. The Endless WE are Groot

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    It's how THIS J-Man works. It's still a valid interpretation of the character, as is Ledger's, as is Romero's.


    He's insane... why not? Maybe he has a thing for photographers too?

    Rachel Dawes is ugly as sin and has the personality of a mop bucket.


    How is this fluff filler? It was all building up to that flashback. It was deconstructing Bruce Wayne, showing us the significance of crime alley, keeping it a mystery until we actually see the flashback.

    It's called story telling.

    Why not? Public Bruce Wayne wouldn't sure, but this is the real human being Bruce Wayne in an intimate moment. The facade is slipping. It makes him a more three dimensional REAL character.

    I could count a dozen things Nolan's Bruce Wayne/Batman does that i think are out of character. Maybe more.

    Retiring and ****ing off to Italy with a woman he barely knows and leaving his legend to an untrained cop he barely knows is one of them...
     
  13. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    I'm pretty sure it's stories. But look at the evidence in the movie. Would Vicki come to Gotham because of one random story? Would Napier think Knox is worth following because he published one story?

    That's conjecture. You can only judge the movie by what it presents. It never presented anything like that. It showed Joker wanted Vicki because he fancied her. It showed him send Bob to follow Knox because of Batman.

    You mean apart from his various quotes that he thinks she's hot, she's going to be his new girl, playing romantic music around her, candlelight dinner, bringing her flowers saying they were made for each other etc.

    Even if you were right about that, it was obviously enough for him to have Bob follow him.

    I have several times with quotes and facts from the movie. You keep disregarding it with unfounded theories and just accusing Joker of joking.

    Of course. You can't knock the bell down from the bottom can you.

    Just because he's called Joker doesn't mean he doesn't mean everything he says is a joke and untrue. By that logic you can disregard everything he says in the movie. His actions matched his words on this. He was trying to romance Vicki in his own sick way, and he blatantly fancied her.
     
  14. Fudgie Registered

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    One reason why he sucks.

    That's a weak sauce excuse. He's nuts so he just does it. Nope soz doesn't wash.

    Pfffftttt says you.

    Nope it's called filler. There was no build up. There was one scene where she follows him, then the scene where Knox tells her what he's found followed by the flashback.

    There was no deconstruction of Wayne. All it told us was he folks were killed there.

    Nope even real Bruce Wayne ain't the world stumbly insecure. This was Peter Parker behavior.

    Heh but revealing his secret to a chick he barely knows, and who's also a member of the press is more in character? Selina saved Brucie's bacon from Bane, and then helped him save the whole city. There's a bazillion more reasons for him to trust her and retire with her than go and reveal his secret to random photographer chick he had a night of drunken sex with heh.
     
  15. CountOrlok Registered

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    Napier thought Knox was worth following because Batman dropped him into the acid, and Knox was (then) his only link to find out more about Batman.

    Vicki came to Gotham because she "likes bats", and was intrigued by Alex's story.



    That's conjecture too.

    Again, he jokes around a lot. You really think he was serious?


    Yeah, because again, at that point in time he was the only link he had to find out more about the guy who dropped him into the acid.

    You have to separate 'facts' from 'quotes'. Quotes can be character-based, and not necessarily always explaining plot points.

    And that's relevant, how?

    Ok, that's your opinion. I've already argued my case.
     
  16. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    He was having Knox followed because he was the reporter infamous for doing the Batman stories. Not Vicki. Why? Because she never did one before. She was new to Gotham. She never even snapped a photo of Batman. That's why he never heard of her.

    The Cops recognized Knox. He obviously quizzed them many times about it based on Gordon's "Knox, for the 9th time there is no Bat. If there was we would find him and arrest him". One of them even tipped him off about the latest Batman sighting. His colleagues mock him for it.

    This is not the signs of someone who wrote just one story.

    So?

    Based on his dialogue and actions no it's not. It's fact.

    Absolutely since his actions supported his words.

    And he still was since he never tried to use Vicki to get to Batman. He asked her ONCE very briefly in the middle of their dinner date what she knew of Batman. That's it. He never tried to pump her for info on Batman. Even after Batman foiled his Smilex plan.

    Explain how his quotes on this don't support his actions. Did he say he fancied her? Yes. Did he try and romance her? Yes. Did he try and make her his new girl? Yes.

    All you're saying is he is probably joking with nothing to back that up.

    Because you can't block the Cops coming up using the bell from the bottom of the stairs lol.

    Sure.
     
  17. CountOrlok Registered

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    Let me ask you a question:

    When Joker (Heath Ledger) in The Dark Knight said "Hello beautiful.", "And you are beautiful.", "See, I had a wife — beautiful, like you", fixed his hair as if trying to make himself more attractive for her, said "You got a little fight in you, I like that."........

    .....was because he fancied her?
     
  18. The Joker The Clown Prince of Crime

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    Yes it's possible. It's also possible he was lying and play acting so he could conjure up a scars story to terrify her with. But just because he thinks someone is attractive doesn't mean he's going to pursue them romantically.
     
  19. CountOrlok Registered

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    Anyway, I rest my case. I've got nothing more add.
     
  20. Travesty Registered

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    My point, is that both Vicki and Rachel are damsels in distress. It doesn't matter if you can buy into Rachel's character more, she is still a damsel in distress, and they play her that way countless amount if times.
     
  21. CountOrlok Registered

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    Just one more thing: I was wrong about Knox only having one story on Batman. I just watched the movie, after the Axis Chemicals scene, Knox writes another article "Batman Foils Robbery". That's the article that probably drew Joker's attention.

    EDIT: Of course, I'm also forgetting the "Winged Freak Terrorises" ("Wait'll they get a load of me") scene..

    EDIT: I also thought of another reason why Joker would go after Vicki - she helped publish the story cracking Joker's poison code.
     
    #321 CountOrlok, Apr 28, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  22. The Endless WE are Groot

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    Says you. The vast majority of people disagree. Jack helped turn Joker into a pop culture icon.

    That Joker was great. He was used in a satirical fashion perfect for the excesses of the 80s and early 90s. You think it's a coincidence his plots involved poisoning make-up and luring people to their deaths with money?


    What's Ledger's Jokers excuse for... anything he does? He actually says it "I just do things"

    Your Nolan bias is beginning to show i'm afraid. If Nolan made Batman 89 i have a feeling you'd be defending 89 and deriding TDK


    Yes says me... and the vast majority of people who think Rachel Dawes is the weakest aspect of the entire trilogy. Rightly so.

    You're being wilfully obtuse. It isn't filler, it's story telling. It's the way the film makers chose to explore Batman's origins. And it's a perfectly valid one with artistic integrity. It chooses to explore it as a mystery, a mystery the character Vicki unravels and the viewer witnesses.

    Who says? Bruce Wayne isn't a real person, he's a fictional character. This interpretation has a scene where he has real human foibles and struggles to reveal his greatest, darkest secret.

    Selina saved Brucie's bacon from Bane? Yea, after she initially led him into a trap and left him for dead.

    There was more to the Vicki-Bruce relationship than just drunken sex. It just isn't spelt out to us with dialogue. It's in the actors chemistry and their actions. For example, Bruce obviously trusts Vicki enough to give her his research on the Joker poison, including the keys to combating/countering it.

    And at least Burton's Batman didn't want to retire and leave his legend in the hands of an untrained nobody cop and was actually obsessed with his crusade, as he should be. At least we was shown the significance of his parents death by him going to crime alley and laying roses there. Instead of just being told about it in fleeting dialogue exchanges. Nolan's Batman isn't driven by the death of his parents. He doesn't seem too pained by it. He's more concerned with falling in love and passing the Batman mantle on to someone else.
     
    #322 The Endless, Apr 28, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  23. Fudgie Registered

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    Heh the vast majority love McDonalds too it don't mean it's a great restaurant.

    Jack is the icon. Heh one of the most common complaints was that it was just Jack playing himself. Joker was already an icon thanks to the 60's show, just like Bats was. What 89 Batman did was get rid of the campy image most peeps had of Batman.

    Nope he sucked. Prince music, art obsession, following Vicki around. Bleh.

    Nope I just thought it was dullsville. His smilex plan is beaten really quickly, and his parade one even quicker. Big fat meh.

    He says that to Dent along with a bunch of other lies he tells him to mess with his mind. Joker always had a purpose and a reason for doing what he did in the movie.

    Heh how because I think Batman '89 is lame-o I must be Nolan biased?

    Holy fanboy denial, Batman.

    Don't trust your feelings. They're waaaaaaay off. Outside of Batman and Planet of the Apes and I like Burton's movies.

    Heh just because she's the weakest element don't mean she's terrible. It just means there's stronger characters than her.

    Soz.

    It is filler and it ain't an exploration or unravelling of Batman's origin. It just tells us his folks were killed in an alley. The flashback is the big unveiling, even showing us it was Joker who killed his folks.

    Duh obviously he ain't a real person. I mean the real Bruce as in the guy not putting on the public playboy facade. He doesn't get all tongue tied and word stumbly like goofy Keaton did.

    Whoop-dee-doo. She was backed into a corner being targeted for death herself by Bane and his gang. She was desperate. Point is she did the right thing in the end and showed her true self.

    There's diddly to their relationship. We don't even know why Bruce asked her for a date in the first place. The sparks didn't fly between 'em when they met briefly in Wayne Manor. But a couple of bottles of wine later and they're in the sack.

    Heh he didn't even have to give her the research on the J-Man's poison. She said that herself. She asked why did he bring her there cos he could have sent that to the press himself. He took her there because she had the roll of film of pics she took of him shoved down her boobs. That was a dumb excuse too because he could have got that off her without taking her to his cave.

    Bruce was obsessed. He spent seven years prepping himself. He used his fear of bats to make the image of Batman. He wasted away for 8 years after TDK hoping for things to go bad again so he could be Bats again.

    Whoop dee doo he left the mantle to a Cop. It ain't like comic Bats has never left his mantle off to someone and retired. And it ain't like Bruce in the comics doesn't want to retire and put it all behind him either cos he's said he does lots of times.

    Heh we don't need to see him leave roses in crime alley to know his folks affect him. You see that in the dreams and flashbacks he has about them in BB and TDKR.

    Sure he is. 'My anger outweighs my guilt'.

    Neither did Keaton's Batman. He only remembered his parents death because Joker was their killer. Leaving roses in the alley on their anniversary don't mean he's sooooo pained by their death. Lots of peeps leave flowers for loved ones on their anniversary. Doesn't mean their consumed and driven by it.

    Nope. He's more concerned with saving Gotham and giving them hope.

    Didn't expect you try and turn this into a Burton vs Nolan debate but hey if you wanna play that way, look at some of the comic book writers who don't like Burton's Bats:

    http://www.batman-on-film.com/leebermejointerview.html


    http://www.batman-on-film.com/interview_mattwagner_jett_2006.html


    http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=14523


    http://normbreyfogle.com/media/interviews.asp?page=ozcomics

    I got more to post if you wanna see them.


    It ain't like the Burton Batman flicks didn't get plenty of heat from fans for being weak. Even 'ol Burton noticed it and got annoyed about it:

    http://moviesblog.mtv.com/2007/11/20/tim-burton-says-lay-off-when-it-comes-to-his-batman-films/


    Soz but I ain't being biased. I'm just calling it like I see it. So if you wanna keep up this Burton vs Nolan thingy then okey dokey but don't call moi biased.
     
    #323 Fudgie, Apr 28, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2014
  24. CountOrlok Registered

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    Yeah, a lot of people hate the Burton films but a lot of people hate the Nolan films too. I don't usually go by critical scores and audience ratings, but it has way more positive reviews than negative reviews.

    But if you actually analyse the scores of both Batman '89 and TDK, Batman '89 has 47 fresh reviews and 19 rotten reviews. TDK has 270 fresh and 18 rotten. So they both have almost the same amount of rotten reviews, except TDK was reviewed a lot more (most likely because this is the internet age and movies tend to get reviewed more, as opposed to 1989 where most reviews were published in magazines and newspapers).

    If you don't believe me, you can check it out here:

    http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_dark_knight/
    http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1001781-batman/

    Ok, you could go by percentages, but we simply don't know how Batman '89 would rate if it got as many reviews as TDK.
     
    #324 CountOrlok, Apr 30, 2014
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2014
  25. Mandon Knight This means something to those who believe....

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    A role badly acted by both actresses and a bloody annoying, pyos, unashameably up her own arse character with no warm characteristics.
     

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