You Get A Prize, Honey - The 'Doctor Who' Thread

[DarthSkywalker]

Donna is probably my favorite Tenth Doctor companion and it was refreshing that she didn't have romantic feelings for the Doctor. Series 4 imo is the one of the strongest and consistent series in the NuWho.

I disagree with the notion that Ten didn't care for his companions outside Rose. He was clearly upset that he had to erase Donna's memory of their time together because it means he's losing another good friend/companion and Ten stopped taking on new companions because of it. I would say he started to appreciate Martha in the second half of series 3 and that she became someone that he genuinely trusts based on The Last of the Time Lords. He felt guilt over Martha having unrequited love for him and he made it clear to Donna before travelling with her that he only wanted a friend.

I agree with you on Series 1 being the best series under RTD as I like that the Ninth Doctor was just a traveler and he wasn't written like he's Space Jesus. I liked Rose in series one as she was less smug and I like that she helped him with his survivor's guilt,

The Girl in the Fireplace is one of my fav Who episodes but series two was a hit and miss for me. Most of the episodes were just okay but forgettable for me. I feel that series 3 was a step up from series 2 as it had better individual episodes and Martha Jones was more likable than Rose. I think series 3 as a whole was solid and the only episode I would say is bad would be The Lazarus Experiment.

Tbh most of the finales in both RTD era and Moffat era had deux ex machina in them. In the series 5 finale Amy literally wished the Doctor back into existence and The Wedding of River Song was convoluted. Don't get me wrong, I love both RTD and Moffat but they both had their flaws.

One of my issues with 10, is these ideas are conveyed over a very small period of time, to the point that they are clearly plot points for that story and that story alone. Things are written like they have had build up, when all the build up really comes in that episode. You say he felt bad about Donna. Yes, he felt bad in the moment. He felt bad at the end of season 3 about Martha. But these rang false to me for two main reason. First they weren't long term relationship have have had the ground work to make these losses mean all that much. With Amy and Clara, there is that. There are well over 20 stories for each to become a real part of the Doctor's life and to mean something to him. When 12 and Clara arrive at the diner in Hell Bent, they really are the best friends in the entire universe. Not so with Donna and Martha, which is okay in and of itself, if they didn't try to play up their farewells as more then that. Losing the two of them was more akin to losing Mickey then Rose.

Also, there was no real ramifications for all these losses for 10. He doesn't seem to really care all that much, as how his travels play out show. What his real concern becomes is himself. His preservation of his 10 persona. That is what he really cares about.

As to season 3, I really dislike a lot of it. It is really poorly written, and I do think that is when the show was close to being just a really poor Saturday morning show, without much depth or anything akin to true long term story telling. The Dalek 2-parter might be the worst story of NuWho, and it there are at least 3 others that season on that level for me. Especially the finale.

Amy is not a deus ex machina. It wasn't a random twist that came out of nowhere. The crack and the consequences of what it is and what it can do are setup in the Eleventh Hour, and are explored throughout the season. Look at the scene that plays out in both Flesh and Stone and The Big Bang. The Pandorica Opens is built completely around Amy's childhood memories. It's all setup. Moffat's season 6 and season 7 finales are rather flawed imo, but his Capaldi finale stories are rather fantastic imo. Especially the last two.

The writing repeatedly let Capaldi down. The crowning stupidity of trying to turn the Doctor back into an unpleasant, grumpy old man is something that still amazes me to this day. By the time they tried to make him more in tune with Smith and Tennant (someone actually likeable) it was too late. The damage was done. That’s why the ratings died on their arse. Jodie looks like a return to what The Doctor should be in this day and age.

First, each Doctor should be different. It is the inherent idea of regeneration. I never found 12 unlikable. And what I really dislike about this argument, is that it is almost as if people just stopped watching after the Robot of Sherwood. 12 arc plays on everything that had happened to the Doc since the start of NuWho. The idea that this man who lost everything would regenerate into someone guarded, to protect his soul, makes perfect sense. He just kept getting burned over and over again, and instead of getting super selfish like 10, he decided distancing himself from the start was the best strategy. I love that he didn't come out fully cooked. That Clara had to actually feel him out, with the audience. It wasn't "safe". And this arc all plays out by the end of season 8. He is back to a more mellow, personable Doctor by the start of 9, while still having those reservations and anxiety, which end up coming back with a vengeance in Heaven Sent and Hell Bent.

There is a two-parter built around why 12 picked his face and what living for so long does to people. What losing people does to them. Outside of Sleep No More, season 9 has arguably the best per-story average, but beyond that, it has by far the best character arcs when it comes to 12 and Clara. As they play out over each and every episode.

 

[Snow Queen]

I liked the new episode. 13 was really good in it, though I wasn't particularly grabbed by the supporting cast except for Ryan. I do worry it might feel a bit overcrowded with all of them, but I do hope the other two get some more to do soon.

I was a bit surprised to come into this thread and see the last few seasons seem to be a bit maligned. I didn't watch any of it while it aired and only just watched the series last year, but I found that to be the best stuff, myself, particularly with season 9. After the downgrade of seasons 2, 3 and 4, I was worried the other 6 were going to be a nightmare of a time to get through. I'm really not a fan of Moffat and his writing elsewhere, so it was a surprise to me to find it such a big improvement. He definitely wrote himself into unsatisfying corners and overly convoluted narratives to be clever (season 6 fell into that a lot), but even at it's worst, I feel like the episodes were a good time for the cast chemistry. Cast chemistry's one of the main reasons I'd call 9 my favourite, I really like 12 and Clara on their own (the latter moreso after season 7) and they bounced well off each other. I hope the new season's group has a fun dynamic, as I feel like that's the thing that's made or broken the other seasons for me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Doctor Who (in the modern era) has never been a particularly great or consistently good show (at least for me), but the RTD run had enough highlights to stick with it when the going was rough. Matt Smith’s series 5 was the best overall, but the show lost me in series 6 with the River storyline. Seven was an improvement, but the quality still didn’t match series five.

I think Capaldi’s run showed that Moffat was out of steam, and the obvious budgetary restrictions didn’t help anything. Series 8-10 might’ve been consistently better on average than before, but it never had any great moments that resonated with me. It also took me longer than usual to adjust to Capaldi’s Doctor.

I'd say seasons 8 and 9 were Moffat's best work. Season 10 felt a little looser and perhaps trying to condense a bit too much into 12 episodes, but the character work was still on point and it had a few gems. But seasons 8 and 9 had pretty much everything imo. Season 8 is definitely weaker then season 5 or season 9, but it is loaded with good to great stories and the season arc, going through Last Christmas, really works for me. The season had Listen, The Caretaker, Flatline, Mummy on the Orient Express, Dark Water/Death in Heaven, and Last Christmas. It also has the best new Doctor feel out period imo.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I have an irrational urge to scream when people refer to Jodie’s first season as season 11 of the show. It’s season 37.

Also, Matt Smith was the best Doctor. He just was.

It's series/season 11. They call it series/season 11. They sell it in their own shop as series/season 11.

Doctor Who: Series 11 | BBC Shop

And I adore Matt Smith's Doctor. That I ended up loving 12 a tiny bit more is insane to me, but then I do think that was a lot of the writing. Moffat seemed to get lost with 11 for big parts of season 6 and 7. Not nearly the amount of character work or progression. Not with 12. I think that is why he took on a more hands on approach as the seasons went on. To keep it cohesive.

 

[FunkMiller]

I'd say seasons 8 and 9 were Moffat's best work. Season 10 felt a little looser and perhaps trying to condense a bit too much into 12 episodes, but the character work was still on point and it had a few gems. But seasons 8 and 9 had pretty much everything imo. Season 8 is definitely weaker then season 5 or season 9, but it is loaded with good to great stories and the season arc, going through Last Christmas, really works for me. The season had Listen, The Caretaker, Flatline, Mummy on the Orient Express, Dark Water/Death in Heaven, and Last Christmas. It also has the best new Doctor feel out period imo.

I admire your defence of Capaldi’s run, but the consensus seems to be it was a poor period for the show, which was reflected in the ratings.

Jodie will hopefully mend the damage done to the brand. Sorry, but Capaldi started horribly, and never really recovered. The age of the Doctor being a grump, unlikeable old man is over, and should never have come back again.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I admire your defence of Capaldi’s run, but the consensus seems to be it was a poor period for the show, which was reflected in the ratings.

Jodie will hopefully mend the damage done to the brand. Sorry, but Capaldi started horribly, and never really recovered. The age of the Doctor being a grump, unlikeable old man is over, and should never have come back again.

Is this a question of consensus or quality? Because outside of sensationalist media, who exactly was reviewing Who poorly all throughout Capaldi's run?

So ratings dictate the quality of the show? Not that there were any seasons with bad ratings, except maybe 10, but what does that have to do with the quality of writing? Were the two Jurassic World films much better then Nolan's TDKT, as they did a lot more money? Are those films much better then Logan?

You can talk about ratings, fan favorites, etc. I was simply talking about the quality of the show over the first 10 seasons of NuWho imo. You can agree, disagree, whatever. But I also am not the one who just wrote off a Doctor because of their age. You did that. To me that is dangerously close to the idea the Doctor couldn't be female because the Doctor has to fit into some sort of specific box. And I disagree completely.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

I admire your defence of Capaldi’s run, but the consensus seems to be it was a poor period for the show, which was reflected in the ratings.

Jodie will hopefully mend the damage done to the brand. Sorry, but Capaldi started horribly, and never really recovered. The age of the Doctor being a grump, unlikeable old man is over, and should never have come back again.

I can't say I appreciate your attitude about this, you use ratings to try and disguise your personal opinions as facts. There are many Doctor Who fans who did in fact love Capaldi as the Doctor, and to express your opinion the way you do and treat Capaldi and his entire run as the Doctor as a mistake is something that I personally find rather insulting as a huge fan of his run.

 

[FunkMiller]

Is this a question of consensus or quality? Because outside of sensationalist media, who exactly was reviewing Who poorly all throughout Capaldi's run?

So ratings dictate the quality of the show? Not that there were any seasons with bad ratings, except maybe 10, but what does that have to do with the quality of writing? Were the two Jurassic World films much better then Nolan's TDKT, as they did a lot more money? Are those films much better then Logan?

You can talk about ratings, fan favorites, etc. I was simply talking about the quality of the show over the first 10 seasons of NuWho. You can agree, disagree, whatever. But I also am not the one who just wrote off a Doctor because of their age. You did that.

Dude. Capaldi wasn’t that popular. Even with a lot of die hard whovians. I know some loved him, but the reception to his run was just not that good.

And it had nothing to do with his age. It was the writing that let him down. Time and time again. Some of those scripts were godawful. He could have been a brilliant Doctor right from the outset, but the writing and characterisation were just not there. His first season is terrible. Easily the worst of nuWho. And he never really recovered. Such a shame.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I can't say I appreciate your attitude about this, you use ratings to try and disguise your personal opinions as facts. There are many Doctor Who fans who did in fact love Capaldi as the Doctor, and to express your opinion the way you do and treat Capaldi and his entire run as the Doctor as a mistake is something that I personally find rather insulting as a huge fan of his run.

 

[FunkMiller]

There are many Doctor Who fans who did in fact love Capaldi as the Doctor.

And many more who didn’t. And I don’t blame Capaldi for any of it. When the writing was good, he was brilliant... just look at Heaven Sent... but most of the time he was let down by bad scripts. He wasn’t a bad Doctor, but his run was not a good one thanks to the crap he was handed most of the time.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

His first series is far from terrible, and far from the weakest of New Who, It aggravates me to no end that people like to pretend that Forest of the Night and Kill the Moon were the only episodes in series 8, because frankly those are the only actually bad episodes in that series as far as I'm concerned, Deep Breath, Caretaker, Robot of Sherwood and Into the Dalek are better than they get credit for. and Listen, Flatline, Mummy on the Orient Express and the two part finale are great, they also introduce Missy who is a fantastic version of the Master.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Dude. Capaldi wasn’t that popular. Even with a lot of die hard whovians. I know some loved him, but the reception to his run was just not that good.

And it had nothing to do with his age. It was the writing that let him down. Time and time again. Some of those scripts were godawful. He could have been a brilliant Doctor right from the outset, but the writing and characterisation were just not there. His first season is terrible. Easily the worst of nuWho. And he never really recovered. Such a shame.

What is your point? I am not arguing if he was popular with anyone other then me. I am talking about what I feel is the best of NuWho. You keep on bringing up popularity like that has anything to do with it.

The writing and scripts were not godawful imo. They were for 10 most of the time imo, but not for 12. Who had the best individual stories and best arcs. But, you are the one who brought up his age like it was a problem, not me. I love season 8. It is my third favorite season of Who. Just behind season 5 and 9. And I can break it down story by story. But hey, you disagree. That is fine. That does not change my opinion and at least I am willing to at least discuss that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

His first series is far from terrible, and far from the weakest of New Who, It aggravates me to no end that people like to pretend that Forest of the Night and Kill the Moon were the only episodes in series 8, because frankly those are the only actually bad episodes in that series as far as I'm concerned, Deep Breath, Caretaker, Robot of Sherwood and Into the Dalek are better than they get credit for. and Listen, Flatline, Mummy on the Orient Express and the two part finale are great, they also introduce Missy who is a fantastic version of the Master.

Kill the Moon is pretty good imo. Until we discover giant space chicken. Though I do still like the ending. I love that Clara isn't sure if she trust the Doctor to have done the right thing at that point. Forest is just bad imo.

Robot of Sherwood is definitely rough, especially with the RTD style climax. But I love the episode. I love confrontational Doctor with Robin. I love Clara having a good time, while the Doctor tries to prove it all fake just so he can be right. Into the Dalek is just really good imo. Deep Breath to me is just a bit too long. 10 less minutes and it would be rather great imo. Still, it rather solid all around, with moments of brilliance. It is also our last bit of fun with the trio. I really like Time Heist, though the writing is a bit sloppy in places imo. It is one of those episodes I really like, but wish they had cleaned up the script just a bit.

Listen, Caretaker (funniest episode of the series imo), Flatline, Mummy, and Water/Heaven are just great. Listen especially, is as good as Who gets imo.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

 

[WhoMani]

One of my issues with 10, is these ideas are conveyed over a very small period of time, to the point that they are clearly plot points for that story and that story alone. Things are written like they have had build up, when all the build up really comes in that episode. You say he felt bad about Donna. Yes, he felt bad in the moment. He felt bad at the end of season 3 about Martha. But these rang false to me for two main reason. First they weren't long term relationship have have had the ground work to make these losses mean all that much. With Amy and Clara, there is that. There are well over 20 stories for each to become a real part of the Doctor's life and to mean something to him. When 12 and Clara arrive at the diner in Hell Bent, they really are the best friends in the entire universe. Not so with Donna and Martha, which is okay in and of itself, if they didn't try to play up their farewells as more then that. Losing the two of them was more akin to losing Mickey then Rose.

Also, there was no real ramifications for all these losses for 10. He doesn't seem to really care all that much, as how his travels play out show. What his real concern becomes is himself. His preservation of his 10 persona. That is what he really cares about.

As to season 3, I really dislike a lot of it. It is really poorly written, and I do think that is when the show was close to being just a really poor Saturday morning show, without much depth or anything akin to true long term story telling. The Dalek 2-parter might be the worst story of NuWho, and it there are at least 3 others that season on that level for me. Especially the finale.

Amy is not a deus ex machina. It wasn't a random twist that came out of nowhere. The crack and the consequences of what it is and what it can do are setup in the Eleventh Hour, and are explored throughout the season. Look at the scene that plays out in both Flesh and Stone and The Big Bang. The Pandorica Opens is built completely around Amy's childhood memories. It's all setup. Moffat's season 6 and season 7 finales are rather flawed imo, but his Capaldi finale stories are rather fantastic imo. Especially the last two.

I still enjoyed the Dalek two parter from series 3 and I loved the concept of a Dalek-Human hybrid. Whether you think that series 3 was poorly written is a matter of taste as I could argue that Doctor Who felt more of "poor Saturday morning show" during the latter years of Tom Baker or some of series 7 from Matt Smith tenure.

I still feel that the series 5 finale to be a deus ex machina and if it was RTD who wrote it then some folks would have been far more critical as I still feel that Amy wishing the Doctor back to existence was too silly for my taste (I loved The Pandorica Opens/The Big Bang btw). I don't want to make this into RTD Vs Moffat debate as I honestly enjoyed most of their runs.

Anyway I still believe Ten cared about all of his companions or he wouldn't have bothered visiting all of them before he regenerated. Also he even stated in the Next Doctor when talking about his past companions that "they break my heart" when they leave him.

I agree that Ten is arrogant and self-righteous but even with those flaw he still tries to be the hero.I genuinely felt that Ten saw Donna as one of his best friends towards the end of series 4 (I think he even said Donna is his best friend) and I disagree with you when you said there was no ramifications nor did I interpreted that he only felt bad in the moment based on the 2009 specials. In the The Water of Mars we see what happens when the Doctor didn't have a companion to keep him grounded as he acted like he was some sort of God.

 

[WhoMani]

Dude. Capaldi wasn’t that popular. Even with a lot of die hard whovians. I know some loved him, but the reception to his run was just not that good.

And it had nothing to do with his age. It was the writing that let him down. Time and time again. Some of those scripts were godawful. He could have been a brilliant Doctor right from the outset, but the writing and characterisation were just not there. His first season is terrible. Easily the worst of nuWho. And he never really recovered. Such a shame.

I don't even like the Twelfth Doctor and I personally feel that his era was inconsistent. But he is liked by most die hard Whovians (especially those that don't even like the revival series) and I seen others state that he is their favourite Doctor. There are folks that ship Twelve and Clara.

 

[FunkMiller]

What is your point? I am not arguing if he was popular with anyone other then me. I am talking about what I feel is the best of NuWho..

Why are you arguing with me then? My point was that Capaldi’s run suffered from poor scripting and characterisation, which led to poor ratings. I wasn’t criticising anyone else who happens to like 12, just pointing out that he wasn’t that popular with the audience. No fault of Capaldi’s.

 

[FunkMiller]

I don't even like the Twelfth Doctor and I personally feel that his era was inconsistent. But he is liked by most die hard Whovians (especially those that don't even like the revival series) and I seen others state that he is their favourite Doctor. There are folks that ship Twelve and Clara.

Yes. I am one of those die hard whovians, and knew a return to the grumpy, unlikeable old man of the 60s was a terrible move in this day and age. It put people off, as simple as that. And they knew it did, which is why they tried to change his character as they went along.

The worst version of the theme tune in history didn’t help either...

 

[WhoMani]

Yes. I am one of those die hard whovians, and knew a return to the grumpy, unlikeable old man of the 60s was a terrible move in this day and age. It put people off, as simple as that. And they knew it did, which is why they tried to change his character as they went along.

The worst version of the theme tune in history didn’t help either...

I mostly agree with you but I think those that like Twelve see it as character growth when he starts out like a grumpy aloof old man but he slowly becomes the Doctor that we all love (which is what happened to the First Doctor).

I think folks aren't disputing that the Twelfth Doctor isn't popular as like Ten and Eleven. They don't care for ratings or popularity but they simply like this particular incarnation and feel that he is the best written Doctor in NuWho. If you go on the Doctor Who reddit they're love the Capaldi era and there is a cult following for the Twelfth Doctor.

Even though it didn't work work for me, I give Moffat credit that he didn't try to do the safe option by making Twelfth be like his last two incarnations e.g. Twelve didn't have a romantic interest and that Moffat tried to make this particular Doctor have traits similar to the 'Classic Doctors' e.g. aloof, asexual, logical etc.

 

[Dark Raven]

Why don't they have a human-Dalek hybrid as a companion? It could be a bit like Seven of Nine in Star Trek Voyager. Or if not that, have a good Dalek who goes rogue from the others and helps the Doctor out.

 

[Jordacar]

They pulled that Dalek hybrid crap way back on the "Daleks in Manhatten" 2-parter, and that was one of the worst episodes ever. They took another stab at it in season 7 starting with "Asylum of the Daleks". And don't forget "Into the Dalek" where they came across a Dalek who'd gotten a taste for murdering other Daleks. (Didn't that one come back for "Twice Upon a Time"?)

 

[Mandon Knight]

Oh my word. Love it, love it. That's two 'ugly cries' in two weeks. It's just beautiful. It's a world of quality that I thought lost with Calpaldi. The music is amazing, the set design, the atmosphere, Whittaker is phenomenal thus far. 2 for 2 for me. It feels like classic Who in new Who clothing. Brilliant stuff.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

New opening titles and episode 3 trailer in the spoiler below:

Spoiler

 

[TheComicbookKid]

Titles look amazing. Love that little drop-off in the beat.

I was gonna wondering what the outfit looked like without the jacket. Definitely gives her a tomboy feel.

 

[WhoMani]

The latest Doctor Who episode The Ghost Monument was boring for me. The visuals look amazing and I really liked Graham in this episode. But the monsters in here are forgettable. I still like Jodie Whittaker as the Doctor but at times Chibnall seems undecided on whether to make her a comedic Doctor or serious Doctor. I do like that she's hopeful and that she's compassionate

It seems like Chibnall was lying about series 11 having no story arc as the Stenza got mentioned again and it seems like Chibnall is setting them up to be the new 'big bad'. Tim Shaw from episode one was rather bland and not particularly smart so hopefully the rest of his race are interesting and that they have a intriguing back story. Or the Timeless Child could be another/real story arc for series 11.

Chibnall's style is similar to RTD as he's going going for character, relationships, and very clear and simple stories.

I do like Doctor Who's new psychedelic opening intro and the new TARDIS interior is... different. I need to see more of the interior as I'm unsure about it.