Episode 1: Glorious Purpose (Spoiler Discussion)

[Iceman]

@Flash525 (too difficult to cut and edit out a multi-quote from mobile so @ ing you) just giving my 2 cents on the earlier quote.

Predetermination/destiny can but doesn’t have to exclude free will IMO. The free will just happens to be part of the predetermination. Without the free will you wouldn’t even need to determine anything and everything would proceed robotically. If you were destined to have an egg thrown at you on your way home from work you wouldn’t have to decide to get out of bed and go to work in the first place, it would automatically happen through some mysterious force dragging you there even with your brain switched off - but in reality you will make a succession of free choices to get to that point.

If our path tonight for eg has been predetermined it doesn’t mean us going through the motions of choosing between pizza and KFC aren’t still up to us - it would only feel any different if we actually found out that events were predetermined - and even then we wouldn’t know which takeaway we had been predetermined to choose. The fact that we would end up choosing the predetermined takeaway wouldn’t mean that we didn’t choose it and exercise free will. If I know someone is going to save a cat tomorrow it doesn’t make them saving the cat less heroic and it doesn’t mean they didn’t freely decide to save the cat when the choice of doing so or not presented itself.

The way they have talked about this issue so far feels like these agents are protecting what would happen through free will and without artificial and unnatural meddling with time by those managing to become external to the system. We’ll see over the next few episodes if what they are doing is portrayed as good/necessary work or villainous though and it should be a very interesting ride!

 

[samsnee]

Honestly, you can't think about this timeline stuff too much. It's like wondering why the Eternals didn't fight to stop Thanos. I'm sure they'll give some hand-wavy excuse to address it, but it won't really make sense if you think about it too much. Just enjoy the ride and the character performances.

 

[Pablo Parker]

@Flash525 (too difficult to cut and edit out a multi-quote from mobile so @ ing you) just giving my 2 cents on the earlier quote.

Predetermination/destiny can but doesn’t have to exclude free will IMO. The free will just happens to be part of the predetermination. Without the free will you wouldn’t even need to determine anything and everything would proceed robotically. If you were destined to have an egg thrown at you on your way home from work you wouldn’t have to decide to get out of bed and go to work in the first place, it would automatically happen through some mysterious force dragging you there even with your brain switched off - but in reality you will make a succession of free choices to get to that point.

If our path tonight for eg has been predetermined it doesn’t mean us going through the motions of choosing between pizza and KFC aren’t still up to us - it would only feel any different if we actually found out that events were predetermined - and even then we wouldn’t know which takeaway we had been predetermined to choose. The fact that we would end up choosing the predetermined takeaway wouldn’t mean that we didn’t choose it and exercise free will. If I know someone is going to save a cat tomorrow it doesn’t make them saving the cat less heroic and it doesn’t mean they didn’t freely decide to save the cat when the choice of doing so or not presented itself.

The way they have talked about this issue so far feels like these agents are protecting what would happen through free will and without artificial and unnatural meddling with time by those managing to become external to the system. We’ll see over the next few episodes if what they are doing is portrayed as good/necessary work or villainous though and it should be a very interesting ride!

Exactly all this.

Also, its not like the TVA is preventing bad things from happening. They just prevent people from changing whatever happens in the main timeline. Good or bad. Half the life in the Universe was gone for 5 years. They protect that too. Its not like “the stakes are gone”, its more like “whatever happened, happened. Deal with it”.

And anyway the hole “we protect the Sacred Timeline” thing wont end well... They are probably hiding a lot of things from Loki... We’ll see!

 

[legendkillin]

This was a very inventive first episode and I will be glad to dive into this new section of the MCU. Also it was good to see Loki watching back parts of his life, proving that his family does/did matter to him regardless of how he suppresses it.

I like that he decided to look into the future memories he gets, I was wondering if they would find a way to not have him find out he dies so soon and all.

 

[legendkillin]

I thought this was easily the best episode so far of D+ (but I might be forgetting one). I thought WV sort of meandered too long at the beginning and I found it annoying. Tom Hiddleston just kills it constantly. Loki is rising as one of my favorite Marvel characters.

It was by far the best 1st episode of the shows to me. They have some mystery but not a whole lot of beating around a bush like Wandavision early eps was a ton of mystery and what if since it fit the show. Falcon's show was straight forward but not gripping at the start, didn't care for Flagsmasher group.

 

[KaijuDude1992]

They’ve got off to a great start and Wilson/Hiddleston are going to be very entertaining together.

They have such a great, natural dynamic with eachother and honestly I don't think I ever would have imagined two very different yet quality level actors could work together so well.

 

[Boom]

This was great. Can't wait for next week.

 

[ScarlettW]

I don't think it necessarily does (note - the following is just my opinion, how I see things and how I'm reconciling things with what this show revealed, I may change my thoughts if additional episodes and/or the Doctor Strange movie (since it will be dealing with the Multiverse) provide further information/clarification - feel free to disagree, I won't be offended if you do ). I still believe that Steve created an alternate branch and - with the information we now have - I think the TVA allowed it because he was meant to do it, even if only for the fact that Steve needed to pass the mantle and a new shield to Sam so he could become Captain America. That once old!Steve returned to the original timeline at the very end of Endgame, the TVA may have gone to the branch where he'd been living and 'reset it' (we know they did this to the alternate 2012, they probably also did it to the alternate 2014 where Thanos and his army ceased to exist because they traveled to the main timeline and were killed - timelines that were so severely altered that even Steve returning the stones as closely as possible to the moment they were taken wouldn't 'clip' the branches). Steve still has his memories of it and of his life that he had there with Peggy, but in reality it may no longer exist.

As I said, that's just the way I see it right now (and I hope I made sense, apologies if I didn't.... it's been a day)

What about Gamora? The 2014 Gamora is on the main line. Was it supposed to happen? How? TVA is going to come after her and restore?

 

[Iceman]

They have such a great, natural dynamic with eachother and honestly I don't think I ever would have imagined two very different yet quality level actors could work together so well.

Yeah, chemistry is very important and having 2 great actors is no guarantee that you will get that. Luckily it’s looking like these 2 are going to work very well together. I’ve really loved Wilson’s character so far.

 

[Mike Murdock]

Very good first episode. It was a bit slow, imo, but the world building was worth it. I'm impressed at Marvel Studio's ability to take relatively obscure moments of comic book history and find a spin on it that is simultaneously perfect for this story and true to the spirit of what came before. I just re-read the TVA stories Simonson wrote and this feels dead-on perfect for his Fantastic Four run's use of them.

Side note: One of the things that they contrasted but didn't draw attention to was Loki's speech about Freedom being the greatest lie while Loki is in the TVA and finding out that the Timekeepers decide everyone's destiny. Basically, there is no freedom, only the illusion of freedom. If you decide to sleep in five minutes late and they disagree, they prune your entire timeline.

Interesting that, officially, there is no multiverse right now and any branching timeline gets wiped from existence.

 

[Iceman]

I like that he decided to look into the future memories he gets, I was wondering if they would find a way to not have him find out he dies so soon and all.

It must be surreal watching yourself die. Imagine having access to all these tapes of your life, including the knock on consequences or benefits of things you did that you didn’t even know about (like what happened to Frigga). It would be hard to resist watching a bunch of your bad moments and also how it all ended for you (hopefully you’d still be alive by the end of the file).

 

[Primal Slayer]

This definitely isnt Legends of Tomorrow!!!!

It was a fairly good episode! Only thing I didnt like was the whole "The avengers changing the timeline was meant to happen and thus we ignore it" thing and how they'll likely ignore the Gamora thing. But other than those it was really fun.

 

[Iceman]

Exactly all this.

Also, its not like the TVA is preventing bad things from happening. They just prevent people from changing whatever happens in the main timeline. Good or bad. Half the life in the Universe was gone for 5 years. They protect that too. Its not like “the stakes are gone”, its more like “whatever happened, happened. Deal with it”.

And anyway the hole “we protect the Sacred Timeline” thing wont end well... They are probably hiding a lot of things from Loki... We’ll see!

Yeah, that’s why the way it was presented didn’t affect the stakes of all the MCU actions to date and to come for me. They aren’t going after Loki for trying to take over Earth (Wilson even seemed to respect much of what he was trying to do). They were fine with every crazy thing he did until now.

 

[Iceman]

Honestly, you can't think about this timeline stuff too much. It's like wondering why the Eternals didn't fight to stop Thanos. I'm sure they'll give some hand-wavy excuse to address it, but it won't really make sense if you think about it too much. Just enjoy the ride and the character performances.

That’s what I do/am doing - totally loved that first episode with no reservations. I was just trying to help (probably failing miserably) with people who were upset over the events of this episode undoing all the stakes of every MCU film to possibly see things a different way (in case that might make it more enjoyable for them).

 

[samsnee]

I love the two-man play feel of the episode once Mobius and Loki got alone in a room together. Didn’t really care for the ending. A little cliche.

 

[Asharad]

Could the other LOKI variant be from the timeline where Thanos wasn't around to strangle him?

 

[Prison Mike]

This definitely isnt Legends of Tomorrow!!!!

It was a fairly good episode! Only thing I didnt like was the whole "The avengers changing the timeline was meant to happen and thus we ignore it" thing and how they'll likely ignore the Gamora thing. But other than those it was really fun.

Yeah it just seems a bit arbitrary. So apparently the Avengers going back in time was always part of the “sacred timeline” as well as Steve going back in time to be with Peggy. But the 2012 Loki grabbing the tesseract puts the entire timeline in jeopardy? Just seems very random compared to everything else that went down.

 

[legendkillin]

The theme they use to open and end is so good.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Exactly all this.

Also, its not like the TVA is preventing bad things from happening. They just prevent people from changing whatever happens in the main timeline. Good or bad. Half the life in the Universe was gone for 5 years. They protect that too. Its not like “the stakes are gone”, its more like “whatever happened, happened. Deal with it”.

And anyway the hole “we protect the Sacred Timeline” thing wont end well... They are probably hiding a lot of things from Loki... We’ll see!

Agreed. My bet is the TVA will be the real villains. Not necessarily the agents themselves like Mobius, but the Timekeepers and whoever is in charge. This organization is very shady.

 

[Spikey]

Yeah it just seems a bit arbitrary. So apparently the Avengers going back in time was always part of the “sacred timeline” as well as Steve going back in time to be with Peggy. But the 2012 Loki grabbing the tesseract puts the entire timeline in jeopardy? Just seems very random compared to everything else that went down.

I didn't get that at all. I think Loki using the tesseract to escape in 2012 wasn't supposed to happen and like every other alteration to the main timeline, it was deleted. But in this case, the TVA chose to keep this Loki variant so he could help them to catch the real person who is putting the timeline in jeopardy... in this case, the other Loki variant.

Mobius even said that using the tesseract to escape was a minor thing and it was corrected.

 

[antsman41]

I love how the portals look like transparent monoliths.

 

[Steyin]

Colour me as one who was infuriated and frustrated by this opening episode. To start with, the revelation that everything we've seen up until this point was pre-destined to happen by alien space-lizard lords completely ruins the stakes of the universe.

It's no different than if that is actually how the real universe works. You would never be aware of it.

 

[samsnee]

Yeah it just seems a bit arbitrary. So apparently the Avengers going back in time was always part of the “sacred timeline” as well as Steve going back in time to be with Peggy. But the 2012 Loki grabbing the tesseract puts the entire timeline in jeopardy? Just seems very random compared to everything else that went down.

Yeah I didn’t really buy that either. Steve and Tony going back further was allowed but the reason they had to (Loki stealing the Tesseract) wasn’t? Like I said, you can’t overthink it.

And since Pillboi was in this episode, I’m going with the theory that it’s really the Bad Place pretending to be the Good Place

 

[P Supreme]

I was on that Mephisto ester egg hunt in wandavision and ofcourde disappointed so when the child pointed to the devil painting I was c'mon marvel stop it lol glad they revealed in first episode that they chasing Loki himself loved Owen Wilson so enjoyed him here only thing I didn't like was the infinity stones being paper weights that was a lil ridiculous but won't go into a rabbit hole trying to make sense of it

 

[Fallen]

What an INCREDIBLE episode. Just wow

.

Marvel Studios doing D+ shows is the best thing to happen to the MCU.