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Discussion in 'Batwoman' started by Binker, Oct 6, 2019.
Well, half way through and I'm really liking it! I could do with an end to the monologue, but the action looks good and I don't feel like they are thrusting the store along too quickly.
Trashing Batman and talking up Bruce Wayne. That's...different.
I'm surprised they actually showed "Batman"
Ruby seems more comfortable in the suit as Batwoman than she does as Kate
Well damn! Kate was just a child when Bruce was already fully fledged Batman??? That makes him about 10-15 years older than her? I liked them being closer in age. But what is up with him appearing, doing a half-assed job of saving his relatives, disappearing and they still fall to their death with him nowhere to be found? Did he expect them to just get out themselves? It just doesnt make sense.
Are we supposed to believe that Kate is that big of a kickass that she can survive in what looked like Antarctica? And somehow not get hypothermia?
Bruce is really into abandoning Gotham on WB/CW isnt he? Left New Gotham after Selina died in Birds of Prey, gone for the past 3 years here.....and he has that simple of a password for Wayne security? Come onnnnn it's a nice shout out but we could've come up with something more logical.
This is A LOT of flashbacks to try to catch us up to Kates backstory. I'm not sure why they didnt just include Kate spending some time in Australia to account for Ruby slipping back into her accent. It's hard for some far better actors to hide it.
Alice is a very entertaining villain. I kind of wish they had her conceal her identity so she wouldn't be one of those villains that can only appear when they are being a bad guy.
Ah the love interest is married! Lets see how long that last.
Overall it was an OK pilot. I think they could've come up with a better way to get Kate back to Gotham and get us caught up with her backstory. They wanted to build a lot in a small amount of time.
SO glad they aren't pretending it isn't totally obvious that Alice is the sister because I was sure that was gonna be dragged out.
Honestly, this wasn't as bad as I'd expected. Very anvillicious and terrible voiceover, but that's par for the Arrowverse course. Ruby is definitely the weak link, though, which is a potentially fatal flaw. We'll see. I do think there's some potential for improvement. None of the supporting characters annoyed me yet, lol.
And that husband is a Red Shirt if ever I've seen one.
Amell grew into his role, hopefully Rose can do the same. If you compare Stephen Amell in season 1 of Arrow to season 7, the difference is night and day.
So should we assume that there are no other members of the Bat-family? I only ask because even in Elseworlds we didn't get any real nods to the Robins or Barbara.
But yeah, a decent start. I wasn't really wowed or fully invested as I was with the respective pilots for Arrow, Flash, and Supergirl, even though I wouldn't say those were substantially better than this, but it was fine. The whole "when it fits a woman" is as bad as it was when we first heard it in the trailer, but that's about it as far as, for my money, bad lines.
I mean, I still think Amell mostly sucks, but he definitely improved and didn't kill the show, so point taken, lol.
Everyone who interacts with Batman always disappears when he disappears. I'd imagine they exist but wont be talked about. Like, where is Gordon? Is he retired?
I'm with you that he's still easily the weakest Arrowverse lead of the shows still running but he grew on me as he went along.
For me, Arrowverse show lead actors best to worst in their role:
1. Matt Ryan as John Constantine
2. Cress Williams as Black Lightning
3. John Wesley Shipp as The Flash
4. Grant Gustin as The Flash
5. Melissa Benoist as Supergirl
6. Megalyn Echikunwoke as Vixen
7. Caity Lotz as Sara Lance
8. Russell Tovey as The Ray
9. Stephen Amell as Green Arrow
10. Ashley Scott as The Huntress
11. Tom Welling as Clark Kent
Of course if Wonder Woman or Batman 1966 get added, everybody loses to Carter and West by default.
It depends how long Batman was active before he disappeared.
Kate is only a few years younger than Bruce in the comics canon, so maybe Batman wasn't around long enough to have the extended Bat family.
I dunno, I thought it was pretty boring. Even for the CW, I thought it was kinda cheesy.
I’ll give it another 2-3ep to see if I’ll stick it out this season. We’ll see. Not that impressed.
I didn't notice her slip in accent, but then again I don't have an ear for accents.
I kind of wish they had kept her relation with Alice a 'secret' for a little bit longer though. Still alright with it.
Actions scenes were good and we had a real Tangled-moment with the sudden use of the frying pan!
Rose looked real good in the suit too! If they had stayed with that cowl I wouldn't have minded, though I'm also glad they haven't added the wig yet. No reason to rush. Ep 2 will be fine enough.
If this only get better I'll be happy.
After the abysmal ending of Gotham, we are treated to a wonderful series premiere of Batwoman.
What may set this apart from Arrow was Kate Kane’s narrative throughout the show, though like Arrow has flashbacks.
Rachel Skarsten did great as Alice and Luke Fox reminds me of Curtis Holt.
This is basically Batwoman Begins and it’s off to a great start.
It's like you just described Stockholm Syndrome.
Hey, even now he's still 9th out of 11 shows.
And Tom Welling never grew on me. I don't dislike Smallville as much on rewatch as I did back then, but Tom Welling was always awful and he's still awful. Ruined a whole season of Lucifer.
Basically, I'm saying Amell went from a 2/10 to a 5/10 over the course of 7 years. Contrast that with Welling who went from a 1/10 to a 1/10 over the course of ten seasons, or Melissa Benoist who I have at a solid 8/10. Matt Ryan as Constantine is 10/10, it's just a shame his show wasn't better.
- Oh, so Batman Begins started in ice so let's do that.
- Ruby Rose is literally playing the same role as Stephen Amell, down to the half naked stuff, and I am dying over here.
- So Bruce and Kate Rose, who grew up together, are years apart? This is some Hobbs and Shaw **** over here.
- Discount Lisbeth Slander on that bike.
- I think the flashbacks are in soft focus, but the whole thing is kind of cloudy, so I can't tell.
- Oh look, more Nolan. But like... ugly. It's so weird to make those references when the show looks so low rent in comparison.
- She just said he was like her older brother! But he was Batman when she was a kid. What the hell...
- My friend just asked me, "how old is Ruby Rose?"
- I don't hate any of the supporting characters so far. I mean, they are so obviously farmed out of the same place as the rest of the Arrowverse, but the actors seem charming enough.
- How old is Kate Rose suppose to be here? Because while Don't Ask, Don't Tell is a big part of the character, Kate Rose has to be what, at least 27 for this to make sense?
- My brother just hit me with the, "That is suppose to be her dad right? Why does he look so familiar? Oh my God, he's not Wolverine from Mission: Impossible". I chuckled.
- Fight scene, "Cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, cut, neat bit with the fridge door, cut."
- I do not like Alice. I know most people don't know her, but Alice is a big deal for me, and this is nothing like her. So much of what makes her work, is she is legitimately out of her mind. Not in the Joker way, but more like a coping mechanism. This feels like the run-of-the-mill television crazy person. That being said, the actress seems fine.
- On one hand, I like that father and daughter look similar. Far more then her twin sister, who I assume isn't her twin here. On the other hand, I don't think I can take more of their scenes together. That is a lot of bad acting.
- Luke is the stock minority tech character, except ironically enough, not gay on the gay show like his Arrow counterpart.
- I saw this movie the other night called the Midnighters. There were moments in that movie were I honestly couldn't tell what was going on because it was so dark and muddy a lot of the time. It ain't got anything on this.
- How many Nolan reference are there going to be?
- Her reaction to the Batsuit...
- Kate Rose remembers like she is trying to watch porn during the 56k era.
- Why is Alice making out with a random dude?
- This is what the good old days of Gotham looked like? Was the good old days the Great Depression?
- so where did she learn to do the Batman thing exactly? They teach that in the military?
- Me, seeing her in the cowl...
- Oh look, another Nolan reference!!!!
- That is one tough switchblade to go into brink.
- Another Nolan reference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One more Nolan reference!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- If wasn't going to fall asleep already, Maddow will get it done.
- Oh my God, the married to a guy cliche.
- "I never wanted you to be a crow. I wanted you to be bat." Come on, you were thinking it too.
- We Batlieve... okay that's so good crappy punning right there.
- I would like to apologize to Joe Pesci for ever complaining about his voice over during Casino.
- My brother: "Where is Alfred?" Me: "Telling his origin over on Epix."
- Well at least they aren't trying to act like the obvious isn't the obvious. I mean, yeah it has none of the power of the source material, but they already seem to know that so, okay.
I will say, that was not as bad as the Arrow pilot. Two of the key castings are going to be a pain to watch together and apart, the theme is really bad and I wish it wasn't all so bland.
Constantine was to good for this world. Both Ryan and the show. Benoist Kara is a 10 in my book. She captures the spirit of the Superman legacy very well, and is just so damn likable. Even when the writing tries to fight her on it.
If I though Amell went from a 2/10 to a 5/10, he wouldn't have grown on me. That being said, I don't think he was ever this bad.
I think Benoist is just as good as an actress as anybody on the list, and I think her Kara Danvers is fantastic, but I don't always buy her Supergirl. Sometimes she comes off as a female stand in for Superman, which for a lot of the mainstream audience she is. But I like my Supergirl to have just a little more edge, and Benoist is just so naturally sweet. She's easily the best person to play the role so far, though.
And as much as Benoist is written into problems by the showrunners, that's Grant Gustin's wheelhouse. Barry is written to screw up over and over and over again and I still want to root for him because of Gustin's sincerity.
He's not as good as Shipp was but he had a better show built around him.
Cress Williams as Black Lightning is so good. I hope being in the crossover puts more eyeballs on his show because he deserves it.
Caity Lotz grew more than anybody as the Arrowverse went along. She was extremely rough early on too. Her background was in stunt work and it showed when she popped up on Arrow, but years later she's capably holding things down as lead on Legends.
For the most part, I thought this was pretty much what I expected. Ruby Rose is pretty awful, her father's flat and Alice's performance is...really bad and her presence is lacking. Some of the supporting characters (particularly Mary, I like her underground clinic angle) had a bit of life to them, but there needs to be more than that. Being a brooding character is not an excuse for the dearth of charisma that is Ruby Rose's performance. Batman's brooding, and done well I don't find him dull.
The visuals...yikes. From the low frame rate in some of the flashbacks to the ugly colour grade, it's really giving The Gifted a run for it's money.
But my biggest issue has to be the way they chose to reshuffle and portray her origin and the sister twist. They managed to suck all the power out of the key moments. While I'm not against changing things from comics, I feel like the changes made here are far less interesting. They altered the origin in part seemingly to setup this hatred of Batman, but then nothing is done with the subject. She gets over it the second she steps in the Batcave. While it could have potentially been played to give her more conflict over it and give that reveal to her more weight, it was such a nonentity that it failed to do that. As well, by reframing her backstory-related anger towards Batman (ignoring not doing much with it) and shifting it off of her father, it takes a lot of what's memorable about their relationship out of the question and, in my opinion, turns her father into a much less interesting character.
As such, they seem to have attempted to reshuffle some of her backstory around to give her and her father a different dynamic here. Where in the comics, he uncovers her playing vigilante, is talked into helping his daughter in part due to the specific guilt that got removed from this incarnation and that leads into the training, they shifted it over so the training appears here before she ever decides to do the vigilante thing. I get what they're going for, they spell it out really hard in their last scene together, but I think it's just a bit more typical, and shuffles the support role over to Luke to fit their usual mold better, which is just boring. The adjustment also just feels a bit forced, giving her Batman-type training before ever deciding to become a vigilante coming off as overly convenient more than anything.
And going along with all of that, the way they chose to reveal the sister twist made it feel somewhat inconsequential. I don't think it's a bad idea to reveal it to the audience this early, it's one of those things that's much harder to string out in a TV series without it just being obvious, but it feels like that moment lacked the impact it should have had. Maybe it's knowing it beforehand, but it felt like they took the least dramatic way out, especially in contrast to how it all spiraled out during the last few issues if Elegy.
And on the subject of Elegy, there are two particular choices they made in how they portrayed her backstory that I felt lacked the impact that was achieved with them in the comic, with one of them standing as my favourite moment in the comic. The way they plotted out the sequence of flashbacks at West Point, particularly jumping over the emotional high point of that section of the backstory in favour of just discussing it after the fact, lacked punch. The other moment is a more rough analogue. It's the choice in where the moment where she chooses to go full on Batman-style vigilante comes in. In the comics, it's two pages without any text, that lets the visuals of the moment do the talking. The scene is small, and something ultimately inconsequential from Batman's point of view. He comes to help, and though she manages to get rid of her attacker, he helps her to her feet and then disappears. It's a small moment in terms of scale, but it feels large and impactful due to how it's portrayed. In the show, it's Ruby Rose blankly staring at the batsuit followed by one of the dumbest lines in the pilot. I feel like the decisions made with those two moments really exemplify my issues with this pilot: it took some interesting ideas and presented them in the least interesting way, lacking the emotional staying power the scenes could have had and have had in the past (or in equivalent moments). There are a few good things to it, like I said, I enjoyed Mary and her underground clinic, but when it fails to land its big moments and is led by the three worst performances in the cast, that's an issue.
In summary, I'd say I do not Batlieve.
Watch enough Power Rangers after the move to New Zealand, and you start to pick up an ear of actors swallowing their australian/kiwi accent.
I don't want to sound like that person who just wants it their way, because I have accepted tweaks and changes here and there for plenty of things, including my boy Kal-El. I get that a different creative team will want to play with the general origin. But for me, this isn't changing where Bruce goes to train or even how he gets his ninja skills. This is changing what happens on the night his parents died. What annoys me here, is they did it in a way that was obviously worse, and for what felt like no real reason other then to make it a bit more generic. What makes Elegy one of the most effective origin stories in comics, is when I read it for the first time, I felt like I understood Kate, the same way I have always understood Clark, Bruce, Diana, Wally, Hal, Thor, Steve, etc. It was like I always knew her. That is how strong that day in Brussels is. That is how strong her refusal to deny who she is to stay in the military is. That is how strong that night Batman saved her is. And that's all gone here, making her so much more generic. Her father reminds me of the Detective Comics take, and that's just... ugh.
I get why Batman can't be on the show. I really do. So that dynamic not being there, I get. But the impact he has on her that night she makes her decision is so lacking here and they could have easily made that work.
I think the show has potential. My biggest issue with the pilot is that they threw way too many characters at the audience in the first episode imo. I think in this case, less is more. Have Kate and maybe just 2 or three other supporting characters in her world and as the show goes on, build on from there. Kate was fine and the most interesting thing about the pilot for me.
She kinda has that Jolie vibe going for her. Other than that , the idea of "Alice" as a antagonist or potential series bad, is not that great. The pilot also had shades of Gotham and BOP from the early 00's to me at least. It seemed like a Tv pilot from the 90s,
So for me, not the strongest start . However, the lead does interest me enough to stick with it and hopefully they'll trim the cast a bit , come up with far more compelling villains, and strengthen the show.