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Hawkeye Episode 3: Echoes (Spoiler Discussion)

I think the Flag Smashers would have been better fleshed out had it not been for the Pandemic causing some production issues. I give The Falcon and the Winter Soldier a pass due to restrictions of the Pandemic, forcing them to change things.

If we had gotten a Karly Morgenthau and/or Flag Smashers origin episode it would have been better. But I don't think they or their goals worked in a show about a black man deciding to take on the mantle of Captain America. I still think the Sons of the Serpent would have been a much better Big Bad.
 
See its not even that I disagree with you guys because I don't. The Flag Smashers were weak, uninteresting villains plain and simple, but these tracksuit mafia dudes are nothing but a joke and maybe this is one of those rare times where changing stuff from the comics would have actually been for the better.

From what I'm seeing so far I really don't understand how most of these guys are even still alive right now other than for convenient story purposes because I don't believe for a second that someone as skilled as Clint would have had any problem just killing them all at the beginning of this episode.

I mean aren't these guys still Russian gangsters? It's like were suppose to be believe there dangerous but not too dangerous at the expense of comedy which completely undermines the characters IMO.

It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and I'm at that point where I really need something else to hold my attention with this show other than Jeremy Renner or Tony Dalton being sleazy.
 
They are just comedy relief here so they can’t be the real threat. Hopefully the next episode takes a turn to raise the stakes.
 
I looked it up, one of the Tracksuit Mafia guys is played by a Hispanic, Carlos Navarro, who played Alvaro in seasons 7-9 of the Walking Dead.
 
I'm not going to suggest that the TMs are anything more than goofy henches. But that's the role they played in the comics and I think it's working out okay. I would certainly put them at least a couple of steps above Ms. Mogenthau's super serious multi ethnic group of terrorist dullards. I was quite happy when Zemo's butler blew the last of them up.

The Track suits are at least entertaining. Flag Smasher **** brought everything to a screeching halt in F &WS. At least I know I'm not supposed to take them "seriously". And as stated they are added comic value seeing as Clint's stuff is more dry in tone and honestly the humor Kate has going on is more subtle in comparison as well, clock tower over the top moment excepting. So... I get making the Tracksuits funny henches. Kate and Clint and their relationship seems to be a focus as well as selling their dramas as legit so I think they don't want to make either seem buffoonish. Kate is mining smart and clever enthusiastic new comer that is none the less inexperienced and really has no idea what it means to be putting mind, body and soul on the line as an MCU super hero. There is humor to be had there but you can't over do it.

Clint is being done where he's got a dry wit, an adaptable and cunning modus operandi and personality that is none the less still operating despite the toll on him personally, which as he is looking at the march of time, the scars are weighing him down and the injuries physical and otherwise have him maybe looking in the rear view mirror with sadness and perhaps even some self contempt.


What Renner is doing in the series isn't flashy but it is incredibly solid and moving despite Clint's close to the vest exterior.

I think as such Marvel humor had to go somewhere. Does this make them a bit toothless? Yes, to a degree. No less than any other collection of mooks that exist to be fodder for the heroes and at least they have a cool post modernist identity as creations from a more self aware age. They remind me of something out of Venture Bros. And that's always a plus.
 
They're most likely fast tracking an Echo series because there's a vast shortage of Hispanic superheroes in the MCU, at least until America Chavez is introduced in Multiverse of Madness and the inevitable introduction of Miles Morales. They can also reboot Robbie Reyes from his Agents of SHIELD version down the line too.
Oh and I'm all for diverse characters, but this particular character really hasn't done much to win me over so far. Guess we'll see how it goes in the next few episodes.
 
They're most likely fast tracking an Echo series because there's a vast shortage of Hispanic superheroes in the MCU, at least until America Chavez is introduced in Multiverse of Madness and the inevitable introduction of Miles Morales. They can also reboot Robbie Reyes from his Agents of SHIELD version down the line too.
Alaqua Cox is Hispanic? I thought she was Native American
 
the part where younger Maya was in the dojo and William told her he had to go to work and "Uncle" would drop her off. Now he was all dressed in black, but to me, it seemed like he looked the same. We'll see if it actually happens

Bro, why you put spoiler tags in spoiler discussion thread?
 
This was another solid episode - one thing I am seemingly in the minority of is that I do not see the appeal of Echo in this at all. She was fine, the flashbacks were significantly stronger than the present for sure. And this is a character that they're giving an entire series to? That makes no sense. Sure, the character would be fine in a supporting capacity in a Daredevil series or something along those lines, but I do not see anything here that warrants giving them their own series. We'll see if my opinion changes as the last 3 episodes play out, but right now I just don't see the appeal of this character for their own series.
 
Just finished the episode, yeah this show has been great so far. Easily the best of the year, and probably the best MCU thing all around. I don't think I've had more fun than I did during the chase sequence.

Kate and Clint are such a great duo. Their comedic moments work so well in how each of them contrast, but the standout moments have been their softer/quiet conversations. Kate helping Clint talk to his son was so touching and sweet.
 
You know dodgy CGI here and there aside that chase scene is truly one of the great live action super hero sequences because it was ripped right from a modern comic in so many ways.

Action, banter, crazy from the comics only Tom foolery and balanced all so that it was breezy but still fun as a legit chase scene.

And yeah the Pym Arrow was the cherry on top.
 
You know, it’s fine if a certain number of you don’t like certain aspects of this show or the entire show in general. You’re completely entitled to that opinion. I just respectfully disagree. I’m having so much fun with this show. That’s not even me being an MCU fanboy. Even if I wasn’t, I would still enjoy this.

Don’t agree with the sentiments towards Echo as a character. The little backstory* we get of her as a little girl was pretty intriguing and compelling. Don’t know what it is, but any character that uses sign language in anything automatically grabs my attention. Maybe it’s because there’s usually some interesting backstory behind why that character uses it.

*(More flashbacks going forward in the MCU, please. Can’t get enough of them. Also, the uncle is totally Kingpin. :o)

The fight choreography and action was much better this episode. The car chase was great. Loved the Pym arrow. :funny:

Tracksuit Mafia is entertaining. They’re basically buffoonish thugs in the Matt Fraction/David Aja run, and that’s what they are here. I don’t get the complaints.

Also, the chemistry between Renner and Steinfeld continues to be great. I stan Hailee, and she is an absolute queen and goddess whose altar I kneel and worship at every time she’s onscreen. However, credit where credit is due, without Renner’s deadpan exasperation to bounce off of, it just wouldn’t be the same. I get that certain past things about him in real life have made him less than popular, which I don’t disagree with, but I can’t discount his performance in this show.

That phone conversation alone got me, and that was pretty much all Renner.

Looking forward to episode 4.
 
so what does she have to do with the shortage of Hispanic heroes then?

Nothing, just correcting the fact that she's Native American. Having a Spanish surname could depend on what Indian tribe she is a part of. I don't recall what tribe they mentioned her and her father were a part of.
 
Nothing, just correcting the fact that she's Native American. Having a Spanish surname could depend on what Indian tribe she is a part of. I don't recall what tribe they mentioned her and her father were a part of.
yeah I was sure that both the actress and the character were Native American, that's why the comment from @Drizzle had me a little confused

I wish people would stop using 'Indian' interchangeably with 'Native American' though. Indians are from India, not America ;)
 
I think I'm going to bow out of here until this show is over so you guys can enjoy it, because I don't want to be that guy ruining all the fun by being negative all the time, but man I did not like this episode at all.

I was okay with the first two, but I just don't like the direction this seems to be going in so far with the tracksuit mafia being such non threatening buffoons and now this overly sympathetic, sappy backstory for Echo.

Granted I'm not familiar with the character at all, but for me personally it just adds to the lack of anykind of real stakes in this show while also making it feel like even more pure fluff than it already is.

This is the kind of stuff that makes me wish The Flag Smashers would come back because while the execution was weak atleast they felt like a genuine threat at times unlike the so called villains we are getting here.

This show has its moments though like the Pym arrow being used which I really liked and some of the scenes between Renner and Steinfield, but then they completely lose me at dumb stuff like puddy/purple smoke arrows which was just stupid and pretty pointless IMO even for a Marvel show but maybe that's just me.

I'll still finish it because there isn't much else out right now for to watch that's new, but if this wasn't associated with Marvel or didn't have Renner in it I'd probably be done after this episode.
Your opinion is definitely valued. The show is far from perfect, and I do think if I wasn't so hyped for Kate, I'd probably fussing a bit more. I like seeing the opinions here, either way. :up:

I get your feelings on Echo and the Bros as villains, but I don't get the vibe that they are the proper villains here. Especially with Kate's mom and her boyfriend around. Remember, we still have a certain Black Widow to arrive.
 
Alaqua Cox is Hispanic? I thought she was Native American

She's Native American

Nothing, just correcting the fact that she's Native American. Having a Spanish surname could depend on what Indian tribe she is a part of. I don't recall what tribe they mentioned her and her father were a part of.

yeah I was sure that both the actress and the character were Native American, that's why the comment from @Drizzle had me a little confused

I wish people would stop using 'Indian' interchangeably with 'Native American' though. Indians are from India, not America ;)
I should have done my homework. I don't know much about the character, I just assumed she was Hispanic (or at least half) due to her last name.
 
I should have done my homework. I don't know much about the character, I just assumed she was Hispanic (or at least half) due to her last name.
All good man. I try to always come clean when I'm mistaken too. Fun fact, the actress has the same last name as a beloved blind superhero actor... Now that is some coincidence
 
Thought this was a really good episode, started well with the action followed by heartfelt, and then nice cliffhanger.
 
This was another solid episode - one thing I am seemingly in the minority of is that I do not see the appeal of Echo in this at all. She was fine, the flashbacks were significantly stronger than the present for sure. And this is a character that they're giving an entire series to? That makes no sense. Sure, the character would be fine in a supporting capacity in a Daredevil series or something along those lines, but I do not see anything here that warrants giving them their own series. We'll see if my opinion changes as the last 3 episodes play out, but right now I just don't see the appeal of this character for their own series.
Yeah I didn't see it either unless they have some big things in the next 3 episodes for her. Seems like a nice supporting character but unless they add some major plot connected to the movies, I will probably skip that series.
 
All good man. I try to always come clean when I'm mistaken too. Fun fact, the actress has the same last name as a beloved blind superhero actor... Now that is some coincidence

Benedict Cumberbatch and Benedict Wong both come to mind if we're talking uncanny coincidences. Both Masters of the Mystic Arts. Plus --- Wong cast as Wong! Unbelievable.

How's that for a coincidence?
 

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