Falcon and Winter Soldier Erin Kellyman is Karli Morganthau, head Flag-Smasher

Discussion in 'MCU Limited Series on Disney+' started by JB-the-Hunter, Mar 23, 2021.

  1. WatchProtect Registered

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    Darn, guess I'm the only Karli fan
     
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  2. Bren Forevernoob

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    CaptainWagner would like to have a word with you :D
     
  3. Deck Rickard Morag Tong Assassin

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    I like her too. But yeah, we seem to be a rare breed here...
     
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  4. Deck Rickard Morag Tong Assassin

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  5. Lantern Venom Emerald Echo Podcast Co-Host

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    I've liked them as well. Their motivation is logical, and I understand why their methods are disorganized. They're a ragtag band of idealists, not a well-honed machine of villainy like Hydra. Karli has the key anti-nationalist sentiment of Karl from the comics, so I haven't minded that her development has been otherwise slow.
     
  6. Mike Murdock Registered

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    I tend to agree. She's far more interesting for what she represents as an exploration of the post-blip world than she is herself. I think the show may be trying to make her a sympathetic villain, but it ends up coming across as having a reluctance to make her a villain at all, so her violent actions seem to have no bite to them. If you told me the GRC were the villains, I would buy it based on who the show is portraying as sinister.
     
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  7. djsunyc Registered

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  8. Batmannerism Super-unknown

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    Agree with that. And she tends to undermine her position as noble freedom fighter when she straight up murders people - especially people who pose no immediate threat.

    There's something about the character that comes across to me as very unsympathetic. Maybe it's the actress, maybe the characterization, maybe the story points but I don't particularly care much for her - which is the opposite of what I would have expected Marvel to go for, with a character who on paper has some redeeming features.

    By all prior form Walker should be able to kill her pretty easily in one on one hand to hand, given that he put up a massive fight against Bucky ( a supersoldier with 70 + years of killing people experience - although somewhat nerfed in this series) and Sam, a highly trained former soldier. I'll be disappointed with the writers if she gives him a run for his money, without him being handicapped in some way ( e.g he has to fight a bunch of other mooks, has a bullet wound or two etc) true, he's got a dislocated elbow and maybe a spiral fracture in his shield arm, but with his recovery rate that shouldn't slow him down too much.

    While she has the physical abilities ( strength, speed, toughness) of a supersoldier there's no reason to think she's had any advanced training, or tactical thinking which is what made Cap, Bucky and Walker so dangerous. Walker was near peak human before the serum, so its reasonable to assume that it enhanced him possibly to a greater degree than Steve or Bucky ( which would explain why he could fight Sam and Bucky simultaneously for a while)

    But back to Karli, I feel like were supposed to sympathize with her, but it's hard when she comes across as sullen, entitled, ruthless and bereft of charm. I suppose she's an effective villain in that I can't wait for her to get her comeuppance ( you know, the kind of villains, who you really look forward to seeing them get beat down).

    I wonder if it was a conscious writing choice to make her the antithesis of Zemo, who has tons of charm but is just as ruthless and his plans involve a fair amount of murder and mayhem.

    We find ourselves quietly cheering for Zemo, although we know he's a bad guy, but the same can't be said for Karli.

    Maybe she's meant to look ordinary, and come across as pretty ordinary, to make her relatable, but somewhere in the execution it doesn't quite work.

    Anyway, hopefully the writers give us a satisfying ending for Karli's story.
     
  9. Batmannerism Super-unknown

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  10. craigaat World's Greatest Spy

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    She's not great in this. Not charismatic enough to get me on her side, not evil enough to get me to be afraid of her. Just very bland.
     
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  11. GREEN =w= DAY Registered

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    Yeah, she was an annoying nuisance more than anything

    I understand her motivation but not enough to sympathize with her. At times she came off as a total brat
     
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  12. TheFuture Valar Dohaeris

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    You know it's interesting; power and being an inspirational figure can be about more than just charisma. It can be about being earnest in your beliefs and having the conviction to defend those who need defending. People will follow someone like that.

    She's like a fledgling Steve Rodgers ironically I think, nowhere need the real deal but she had enough about her for me to believe the rest of the FS would follow her in rebelling against the Power Broker. Maybe Sam saw the same thing in her; someone capable of so much better but using the wrong methods.
     
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  13. Hannibal75 Registered

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    I think Karli and the Flagsmashers were the worst MCU villains since Malekith and Yellowjacket.
     
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  14. Iceman Daffy Duck Vs The Joker

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    I thought the flag smashers were really boring but Karli was Hall of Famer awful and boring.
     
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  15. TheFuture Valar Dohaeris

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    I think people need to temper their expectations on these Disney Plus shows. Wandavision was a showcase for Wanda and Vision with Agatha being a fun but ultimately non threat.

    It's the same here; this was for Sam and Bucky to take front and centre with no chance of them being overshadowed by a villain (though Wyatt Russell was pretty class).

    Loki will be much the same I imagine. Simply put these shows aren't going to reinvent the wheel when it comes to villains in the MCU. That's not their purpose. Now that we've seen the first two shows on Plus it just makes the idea that Doctor Doom will debut on the platform so laughably ludicrous.
     
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  16. KevTravels Registered

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    Nice of Sam for not trying to actually kill her like others would be.

    Btw did we ever learn the names of her compatriots?
     
  17. psylockolussus Merry Mutant

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    They were uninteresting from the get go. Even visually, I feel like Marvel didn't try.
     
  18. Jordanstine Registered

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    I couldn’t take Karli seriously.

    Agents of Shield had more interesting villains than the Flagsmashers.
     
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  19. psylockolussus Merry Mutant

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    With that logic, almost every character in the mcu should just be wearing ordinary clothes. Really whatever happened to costume design and paying homage to the comiXs? You don't see Black widow, Hawkeye, capt. America being practical with their outfit choice in battle. But we are going to make an eXception with these Flag Smashers because they got no money? Is there a reason why Peter Parker's costume always need to be red and blue? Or that Iron Man's suit always need to be red? Okay.

    I guess we should not eXpect the X-Men to wear colorful costumes in the MCU because who cares really about looking cool? Well they don't, it is just how they dress up in the comiXs.
     
    #94 psylockolussus, Apr 23, 2021
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2021
  20. Fosterson Registered

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    Just because the story is mainly focused on the hero(es) doesn't give you an excuse for your villains to be so bland and forgettable. You can still flesh them out and give them compelling motivations and dynamic personalities.

    Take Black Panther for example. That movie is unquestionably T'Challa's story and yet Coogler found a way to make Killmonger a truly great antagonist all the same. Same with Zemo in Civil War. He got far less screen time in that movie than Karli did in this show and yet was infinitely more interesting and engaging.

    And heck, even Thanos in IW was in a movie flooded with dozens of heroes and despite that the Russos were able to make him one of the best CBM villains of all time.
     
  21. psylockolussus Merry Mutant

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    Well maybe she would now that the series ended. Okay.

    And why does it matter, its a tv show based on the comiXs not real life people/ events. Asking me why it matters is like wondering about people talking about costumes in cb movie or in this case, comic book tv show.
     
  22. Dr. Evil Registered

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    Erin Kellyman was better in Solo and that's not saying much.
     
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  23. The Overlord Registered

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    So was Flag Smasher's Space Ghost costume some super iconic costume that a ton of fans wanted to see on the screen? I doubt it, the MCU has changed a lot of villain looks over the years, especially when we are talking about some C-list villain.

    Flag-Smasher is defined by his ideology, not his costume, and yeah and I think you have to ask yourself sometimes, would this costume make sense for this character and in terms of what the average anarchist wears, no it wouldn't. You can't just say, well Flag-Smasher is a supervillain, so Flag-Smasher should wear a supervillain costume, it would be seen too flashy and may even come off as trying to be elitist, which is what most anarchists try to avoid in terms of appearances. A costume should make sense for the character, not just be there for some easter egg for hard-core fans.
     
  24. psylockolussus Merry Mutant

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    Seeing that cape costume from the comiXs would not have been fitting for this show.

    But they could have come up with something more presentable. They were facing against a guy with mechanical wings, a guy with a mechanical arm and a guy wearing stars and stripes anyway... Something that just looks better than ordinary pants and long sleeves and whatever that mask was that didn't even look fitting to their everyday outfit. I literally have the same clothes Karli had in the show except my pants didn't have holes in it.
     
  25. The Overlord Registered

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    I think Karli could have been a better villain, if they gave her a more defined backstory to explain why she became radicalized, like a have a flashback or something to explain why she became an anarchist.
     

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