Falcon and Winter Soldier Erin Kellyman is Karli Morganthau, head Flag-Smasher

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I cringed every time they said "One world, one people".

Even if they had good motivations on paper, I think because we didn't actually get to see the hardship of their displacement, they just come across as typical cheesy fake TV versions of freedom fighters, like naive teenagers playing anti-establishment punks when they really have no idea what they're talking about. It just made them irritating, not sympathetic.

So yeah, the worst MCU villain by far.

And I don't think it's a knock against the actress. Kellyman carries herself with a lot of strength despite her youth, and she pulls off that crazy look of self-belief. But without letting us feel and remember what she's gone through every time we see and her merry band of rebels, she just comes across as an annoying brat who likes the sound of her own voice, talking herself up for what she's done ("Our movement is bigger than us now", blah blah).

I think, like in WandaVision, we needed a scene or montage when all the people came back from the Blip, where we got to see how it affected Karli, and we really feel the weight of what they're fighting for.

 

[KillerMcQueen]

I cringed every time they said "One world, one people".

Even if they had good motivations on paper, I think because we didn't actually get to see the hardship of their displacement, they just come across as typical cheesy fake TV versions of freedom fighters, like naive teenagers playing anti-establishment punks when they really have no idea what they're talking about. It just made them annoying and irritating, not sympathetic.

So yeah, the worst MCU 'villain' by far.

This sums up the real problem with them/Karli pretty well, they talk about their cause repeatedly, but we never get to actually see what lead to them radicalizing, and the exposition dumps are not well written/acted enough to compensate.

 

[The Overlord]

I cringed every time they said "One world, one people".

Even if they had good motivations on paper, I think because we didn't actually get to see the hardship of their displacement, they just come across as typical cheesy fake TV versions of freedom fighters, like naive teenagers playing anti-establishment punks when they really have no idea what they're talking about. It just made them irritating, not sympathetic.

So yeah, the worst MCU villain by far.

And I don't think it's a knock against the actress. Kellyman carries herself with a lot of strength despite her youth, and she pulls off that crazy look of self-belief. But without letting us feel and remember what she's gone through every time we see and her merry band of rebels, she just comes across as an annoying brat who likes the sound of her own voice, talking herself up for what she's done ("Our movement is bigger than us now", blah blah).

I think, like in WandaVision, we needed a scene or montage when all the people came back from the Blip, where we got to see how it affected Karli, and we really feel the weight of what they're fighting for.

Karli and her group are not worse than Malekith, at least they had some personality. But yeah, some flashbacks to show how Karli was radicalized would have helped.

 

[Schlosser85]

Even if they had good motivations on paper, I think because we didn't actually get to see the hardship of their displacement, they just come across as typical cheesy fake TV versions of freedom fighters, like naive teenagers playing anti-establishment punks when they really have no idea what they're talking about. It just made them irritating, not sympathetic.

I think this sums up how I felt.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Yeah I think the greater problem was the group themselves. Aside from the occasional suspicious glance from nervous sidekick guy, Karli was the only one with any personality. But more importantly, I think some flashback scenes showing some of what they had actually gone through would have made them more sympathetic. I think people are right that they removed and changed some stuff due to the pandemic.

Anyway, I know I’m not going to convince anyone that she was a good antagonist but I liked what Karli brought. While some of her motives and her background needed more fleshing out, I still mostly understood where she was coming from but also understood why she had to be stopped. I think casting such a young actor in the role worked well because she wasn’t mature enough to see the damage she was causing.

 

[Dark Raven]

Karli and her group are not worse than Malekith, at least they had some personality. But yeah, some flashbacks to show how Karli was radicalized would have helped.

They could've had Karli teaming up with Malekith and any other terrible villains from the MCU to see if they could redeem themselves in future.

 

[djsunyc]

So yeah, the worst MCU villain by far.

they can't be the worst b/c people agreed with them including sam.

worst was probably malekith.

 

[KevTravels]

They spent more time highlighting Zemo and Sharon and John Walker and even Batroc than the primary antagonists (Flagsmashers) but to be fair that's what most fans would have wanted.

 

[Lantern Venom]

So was Flag Smasher's Space Ghost costume some super iconic costume that a ton of fans wanted to see on the screen? I doubt it, the MCU has changed a lot of villain looks over the years, especially when we are talking about some C-list villain.

Flag-Smasher is defined by his ideology, not his costume, and yeah and I think you have to ask yourself sometimes, would this costume make sense for this character and in terms of what the average anarchist wears, no it wouldn't. You can't just say, well Flag-Smasher is a supervillain, so Flag-Smasher should wear a supervillain costume, it would be seen too flashy and may even come off as trying to be elitist, which is what most anarchists try to avoid in terms of appearances. A costume should make sense for the character, not just be there for some easter egg for hard-core fans.

I didn't expect to see any strong links to the Flag Smasher comic costume. The black mask with the red handprint was just fine for this storyline. The FS, and Karli in particular, are defined more by motivation than appearance and powers.

The writing for Karli got stronger as the show progressed. She was reluctant and unsure of herself at first. The deeper she went on her path of anti-nationalism, the more villainous she became. She didn't care about sacrificing herself or hurting others in the process. By the end of the show, she was fanatically devoted to her cause, which made her so dangerous. She didn't need a cape or oversized white wrestling boots for this.

 

[Iceman]

Karli and her group are not worse than Malekith, at least they had some personality. But yeah, some flashbacks to show how Karli was radicalized would have helped.

I thought lack of personality was one of the major complaints?

 

[The Overlord]

I thought lack of personality was one of the major complaints?

Malekith has no personality, Karli has confusing characterization. Karli is supposed to be an anarchist, that can work as a motive, if they showed when she got radicalized.

 

[Iceman]

Malekith has no personality, Karli has confusing characterization. Karli is supposed to be an anarchist, that can work as a motive, if they showed when she got radicalized.

Malekith also has no personality, sure. Absolute waste he was.

The lack of personality of the flagsmashers (but Karli in particular as a leader) zoned me out of caring about the show when they were on screen. Their cause having at times unclear justification was just an additional (major) issue after forcing myself to listen, but they’d already lost me before we got too deep into that. I don’t think I’ll be rewatching the show a whole lot due to them, or at least will be fast forwarding through the FS parts. I don’t even say that about Whiplash lol.

I’m sure they could have made this group a lot better with sufficient background as you say, so that the viewers sympathised properly with their cause, but at the same time you have to make the villains more interesting/exciting. (just my view of course, all good if you found them interesting )

 

[Batmannerism]

As far as antagonists go, and what Karli needed and whether Kellyman was ever going to be a good choice....


By comparison GSP appears as Batroc for about 5 minutes of screentime in Cap TWS.

He doesn't speak a word of english in the film.

However, given about 30 second of backstory and his own screentime he establishes Batroc as a cunning, ruthless and dangerous adversary.

Now GSP has a massive physical presence - not as in sheer size, but the moment he throws his first kick you know this is a guy who is a badass and a legitimate threat.

If FATWS had had writing of the same quality as Cap TWS, Karli could have been a really engaging villain - I mean if the Russos could work around the limitations of GSP's acting, I'm sure they could work around Kellyman's.

 

[Zarex]

I wonder if Karli and the Flag Smashers would have worked better if she was the only one who had taken the juice. Give her a larger crew of henchmen to throw at Bucky, Sam, Hoskins and Walker, and give them some weaponry to make it a fairer fight.

Then show her being corrupted over time, separating herself from her group and using her physical superiority and the delayed promise of enhancing her crew to bully them into doing her bidding. Have her lie about the vials Zemo smashed. Give the young lady more of an edge, and show the wheels coming off the movement prior to the final episode. Then add a seventh episode for her origin and Karli gets out of Malekith land.

 

[Fosterson]

I wonder if Karli and the Flag Smashers would have worked better if she was the only one who had taken the juice. Give her a larger crew of henchmen to throw at Bucky, Sam, Hoskins and Walker, and give them some weaponry to make it a fairer fight.

Then show her being corrupted over time, separating herself from her group and using her physical superiority and the delayed promise of enhancing her crew to bully them into doing her bidding. Have her lie about the vials Zemo smashed. Give the young lady more of an edge, and show the wheels coming off the movement prior to the final episode. Then add a seventh episode for her origin and Karli gets out of Malekith land.

Hey! Maybe she doesn't want to get out of Malekith land? He looks like a pretty fun guy to me!