EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Discussion in 'Marvel Films' started by Thread Manager, Jul 3, 2012.

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  1. E-Man

    E-Man Cooler than your daddy.

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    The biggest thing I want from stories is good writing, and Hudlin barely had any of that. His best story was the Flags of Our Fathers, but even that was just an okay story. I really don't think he should get any brownie points for not being afraid to talk about race. Sure that's something that people shouldn't be afraid of, but when the story sucks it doesn't help at all. Malcolm X and MLK are cool heroes of mine, but what in the blue hell are the Skrulls doing imitating them in the exact same manner that they lived? If he wanted MLK and Malcolm in the comic he should have just used Solomon's frogs to take them back in time instead. That would have been a much better story since it would be the actual characters, and you wouldn't have aliens from cultures that wouldn't even consider those two sacred imitating them and doing their best. Hell the Skrulls are shapeshifters. Why in the hell would they just let one guy imitate an idol? They know better. The story would suck whether it was black historical icons or white ones.

    Plus it can't be said enough that Hudlin doesn't get T'Challa. He said he wanted to write him like Batman, Spike Lee, and Diddy. WTF? There is no Spike Lee or Diddy in T'Challa at all. T'Challa may be arrogant, but not in the sense to boast about himself the way Hudlin had him do at times. T'Challa's arrogance is in the fact that he always feels as if his plan would work to a T. He wouldn't let you know how well the plan worked, and he would never let you in on the fact that he's using you like a pawn. He's a poker player. They don't give things up. They just let you sink and try to figure out what went wrong. In Hudlin's run there was none of that. There was arrogance, but his T'Challa bragged too much. "I created this armor when I was 12." "The Leader is not that smart." Why in the hell would T'Challa even talk like that? It's because the writer thinks that he has the personality of a few outspoken celebrities that act nothing like the character.

    That's not including the fact that the stories were terrible. So Fu Manchu sends a bunch of ninjas to kidnap Black Panther so that he could go out on a date with his daughter? A ninja pulls out a pistol(wtf?) and shoots Luke Cage in the head, knowing that he has steel hard skin? Blade calls a couple of vampires he kills crackers, and then later on in the same damn story arc he says that he doesn't care much about race because he's immortal. All this happened in the same storyline, btw.

    In conclusion, Hudlin's Panther run sucked. He should have a Coke and a smile, then proceed to leave Black Panther alone.
     
    #101
  2. Lightning Strykez!

    Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    *co-signs*

    It ended because the sales were not enough to sustain it. Prior to Hudlin's run, T'Challa was written as a seriously sophisticated, almost elegant character. His stories were complex and deep and were for distinguished reading audiences.

    Enter: Reginald Hudlin.

    Hudlin repackaged BP much like a fast food chain like McDonalds does a happy meal: For some reason he wanted to adopt a "Have It Your Way" approach with the character by stripping him of all those sophisticated layers, and then cross marketing him to black reading "hip hop" audience. By dumbing down the writing and playing up the stereotypical references he chipped away at the greatness of the character, selling him out to the lowest common denominator.

    Throwing in Storm--one of the most iconic Marvel stars of all time--was just the natural "next thing" to do in keeping with his newfound "Black Power Trip" (need I remind you that they got married during Black History Month?????? :rolleyes: )

    But people eventually get sick of eating fast food. In time, they crave something healthier. And that's why his run failed and ended, the gimmick just wasn't enough to sustain itself. Storm ended up back with X-Men, the Avengers, etc., because she was too large of a force to be contained in BP's Wakanda.

    And don't even get me started on Hudlin's "interpretation" of Storm. :argh:
     
    #102
  3. Lightning Strykez!

    Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    As always, you totally get it. :up:

    Exactly. It seems that Hudlin came from the angle of, "Look this guy's a negro from Africa. Let's African-Americanize him for crossover appeal." :dry:

    Now, while that in of itself is not entirely a bad idea, as was said by Dr. Cosmic, the execution was terrible. You can't just take a character that has been written a certain way for years and flip his script overnight on the 180. It's not going to stick. If Hudlin had simply taken his goddamn time and mapped out T'Challa properly many of his concepts could've been great.:up:

    But he rushed. :down

    I, for one, liked the idea of Storm marrying T'Challa (although I would've preferred her with Logan or Forge). But if you're going to do it, DEVELOP THE STORYLINE. Don't just throw it my face like, "Looky here, they're getting married and they've always been in love even if you never really read about this 'romance'--eat it!"

    It was a total cluster f____. Ugh, just reading your summary jogged my memory again of just how bad it really was. :csad:
     
    #103
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
  4. DrCosmic

    DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    Laziness plus rushing = cutting corners. But mathematically, that doesn't mean that laziness = rushing. I agree that the rushing had an adverse effect on the comics, but when people take an effect, and then presumptively extrapolate an attitude from that, I usually say something. I don't think that's taking to task, its just a small nitpick that has nothing to do with the rest of your post.

    I didn't disregard your summation of his run. He did indeed take a non-introspective (shallow) commercial approach, and he did in fact do a great job with it - based on the idea that a storyteller who is entertaining and relevant is doing their job. And I was correct that saying he's the worst writer ever is not a reasonable statement - which is possibly why you took it back. Also, I think I'm being quite rational and reasonable, so if there's something in my approach that is offensive, be specific and let me know.

    Well, it ended cuz Hudlin had some crazy idea to do a new series with Shuri. The complaint, as i understand, was that T'challa used too much slang. Perhaps 'hip' or 'hood' would be a better assessment of the complaint.

    I mean, I see what you guys are saying in that everything is subjective, but if we can't presume some sort of agreement on certain terms: ie a comic that is not cancelled is successful, then having a discussion becomes pretty much impossible, afaik. It's one thing if it has to be defended, but if I have to say "Spider-Man is successful in my opinion" because some people disagree with me, I'm probably just going to end up teeing off a bunch of people because I choose not to explain things in such an obtuse way.

    And beyond the truly subjective, some of the statements given, that Hudlin is a bad writer because his Panther is inspired by P. Diddy... that just doesn't follow logically.
     
    #104
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
  5. Lightning Strykez!

    Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    Fair enough, Dr. Cosmic.
     
    #105
  6. RockSP

    RockSP MYTH SMITH ∞!!!

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    Are you talking about that "Young Storm" mini-series? Because Hudlin can't take the blame for that one sucking, heh heh...he didn't write it.

    I'm assuming by "crackers" he meant "hicks" or "rednecks". Though it is usually used as a derogatory term for any white person these days (at least around my way), for some older people (like Hudlin) that's what it meant.
     
    #106
  7. Lightning Strykez!

    Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    No, I wasn't blaming him for that writing. But that arc was done in support of what was about to happen in his book. He was on a deadline because he wanted to get Marvel's premiere black characters married to eachother on-time by February (Black History Month).

    So they just started cramming s____ into the microwave and heating it up as fast as they could. Never mind if it tasted good later, or if it would really "fill readers up." It didn't.

    The whole thing was just soooooooo forced and contrived. I remember once setting the book down literally, thinking "I can't believe they are making T'Challa and Ororo do this s_______".
     
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  8. DarKush

    DarKush Well-Known Member

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    LS,

    How many events in comics are there that can't be considered contrived or stunts? I don't see why the Storm-BP marriage gets undying hate from some quarters for allegedly being rushed or contrived when there was some precedent for it from Priest and even earlier. I grant you that they could have spent more time developing the relationship over a period of years, but Hudlin/Marvel wanted the event and they wanted it when they wanted it. But Marvel did attempt to build on the marriage with the Storm miniseries written by Eric J. Dickey, as you've acknowledged. As for Storm/Forge, I know they had some history in the comics and if the writers had went the marriage route with them, okay, but do you really think it would've led to a bigger role for either character? And with Wolverine, there's no way that relationship would've lasted and Storm would've just become another of Logan's many conquests. But with the T'Challa-Ororo pairing there is a potential-largely underused by Marvel-to up the profile of both characters and to exploit both the Avengers/X-Men franchises that have become pretty much Marvel's biggest focus. And it has been about six years since the marriage, why are people still harping on how they came together? Multiple people, not just Hudlin, have written about the marriage at this point, so why continue to demonize him over it?

    E-Man,

    With what I know of the Skrulls, being shape shifters who can take on the personalities of the people they imitate, why would Skrull Malcolm or Skrull King not act like the people they were imitating? As for using the real people, I'm not sure why Hudlin didn't. Maybe he felt it would be trivializing them, or maybe he wanted to show an alien culture that had respect for black culture or historical figures after we've seen countless depictions in comics and other media of alien cultures that mimic white cultures or peoples on Earth. Or it could've been that he was just trying to take advantage of the popularity of the Skrulls. Though to be fair with you, I hated that Skrull storyline though I did like the covers.

    I do think you have a good point about the quality of writing and how mentioning race should not obscure bad writing. Though for some I have to wonder if the mention of race would factor into if they felt a story was poorly written. With you, I don't think that is the case. But for some I have to wonder if the very mention of race colors their perception of the story.

    As for the Katrina story, I don't recall Blade using that epithet though I do remember him saying that he didn't see race or something to that effect. I think that is a good contradiction that you've pointed out. Though I did like that story overall because I had never seen a team up like that before and the idea of black superheroes helping in a tragedy that had a lot of black victims made sense to me. If the Marvel world was the real world and Katrina had happened, I would think there would be calls and questions in the community about why the heroes-especially the black ones-sat on the sidelines. And I give Hudlin credit for writing about Katrina. I can't think of any other mainstream comic at that time writing about that disaster.

    In Spike and P. Diddy, I don't think Hudlin picked the best role models perhaps to model his T'Challa after, but at the same time both Spike Lee and P. Diddy are successful, intelligent, innovative people, that have had a big impact on black, national, and global culture whether you agree with some of Spike's outspoken comments or Diddy's excesses, so I don't think they are completely beyond the pale. To me Hudlin was trying to make Panther relevant and appeal to a new group of readers, and perhaps those name drops were an attempt to do that, to give the uninitiated potential fans he wanted to reach two popular figures.

    I don't see Hudlin's Panther as being anymore arrogant than Priest's Panther. (I wouldn't even call it arrogance, I would call it confidence). And I found him a lot more appealing than Maberry's sidelined Panther (and I'm not counting when he was injured, but his disappointing sitting out DoomWar in a lab or wherever with Reed Richards and then letting Doom off with a warning after the man wrecked his country, killed his uncle, hurt his family, and nearly choked him out). I think Liss's Panther was marginally better, but displayed a stubborn go-it-alone attitude.

    All that being said, I wasn't too keen on many of Hudlin's stories either, even though it might seem like I did. I liked the ideas more than the execution. I thought he had a good grasp on the Panther though, however he didn't do a great job building up real challenges for T'Challa and he was especially lacking in the creation of new villains. The challenges were over too quickly, T'Challa always had a handy rabbit to pull out of his hat or habit, far too much for my taste. I also didn't think that everyone needed to say how great T'Challa was all the time. That bothered me but I got the feeling that Hudlin was trying to overcompensate for the lack of respect he felt (I'm assuming) that Panther had received over the years. In his inelegant way he was trying to balance that. However he should have been doing more showing than telling.

    Just when I think Hudlin was learning from his mistakes, with the Dark Reign storyline, he left the book. (Also I liked the way he wrote T'Challa and Storm scenes. There was a playful sexiness in some of their interactions and it was great to see two black characters flirt and be sexy. You rarely see that in comics, or the rest of the media IMO).

    As for Maberry I dug his "Power" arc, but came to detest "DoomWar". It started off good but petered out very quickly. And I'm iffy on Liss. I thought the premise was jacked from the get go, but I thought that after "Storm/Hunter" and by the time the book became "The Most Dangerous Man Alive" that it was getting Panther back on track.
     
    #108
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
  9. E-Man

    E-Man Cooler than your daddy.

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    I liked the fact that Hudlin actually paid some attention to Katrina. It's crazy how that got ignored by comics, so I'll give him his props for doing something with it. As big of a disaster as that was they should have given it similar attention to what 9/11 got. They could have done some fund raising comics, but it got largely ignored.

    The thing with arrogance is that people show it in different ways. T'Challa throughout time to me has been a guy that will let you talk your way into his trap while he studies you. He's a that is very eloquent, but he won't say much that isn't necessary. In the Avengers cartoon I loved how Black Panther questions the Gamma World situation, and Wasp says, "OMG I forgot you could talk!" Hulk even had a little funny bit where T'Challa was meditating while on "Hulk watch,' and Hulk being super bored says, "You talk too much." With Hudlin you never got that. He was the type of hero that would boast about things that weren't necessary. T'Challa doesn't talk trash. Why would he need to?

    I liked that Maberry actually gave Shuri a personality, and he made her interesting a bit, but he wasted T'Challa. That whole time he was supposedly risking his life to gain enough power to beat Doom ended up in nothing. All he did was get a little stronger, and in the end he didn't even use that to take out Doom. He used a deus ex machina device that could have been used a long time before then. Part of me thinks that it was editorial that had him keep T'Challa to the side, but I hate seeing how T'Challa isn't even in a coma anymore but he isn't king. It's so stupid, and so was the premise for Man Without Fear. Liss is a very good writer that made it entertaining, but Marvel has done some stupid things with T'Challa lately.

    /rant
     
    #109
  10. Webfoot Hero

    Webfoot Hero West Coaster

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    With almost no news about BP about BP from Marvel's Comic-Con panel, I'd say we're probably not going to see it until maybe 2015. Ant-Man looks to be the next movie to possibly start a film franchise.
     
    #110
  11. cherokeesam

    cherokeesam SHIELD Director Coulson

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    Yeah, it looks like Latino Review and whatever that British chick's blog was got it completely wrong about Marvel announcing Black Panther and/or Ms. Marvel for development in the immediate future.

    I'd look for them to be "Phase III," whenever that starts. I'm betting 2016 is the jump-off point.
     
    #111
  12. Webfoot Hero

    Webfoot Hero West Coaster

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    It was probably them just throwing any rumor out there and hoping something would be true.
     
    #112
  13. The Ironstar

    The Ironstar Well-Known Member

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    Did they say anything about the GotG movie?
     
    #113
  14. Webfoot Hero

    Webfoot Hero West Coaster

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    Read some of the other threads on here and you'll know that GotG is the other 2014 movie.
     
    #114
  15. DarKush

    DarKush Well-Known Member

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    I don't see Hudlin's T'Challa as boastful, however I did think that Hudlin often used every other character to sing his praises-a bit too much-instead of showing how great he is with his actions.

    As for Shuri. I liked what Maberry did with her during the "Power" arc, but after that I thought he did a disservice to her. Giving her uncontrollable rage issues and a Paris Hilton past. I don't think either did much for her character. I also think the shadow physics thing was another missed opportunity. I have to wonder how much Marvel editorial screwed up whatever plans Maberry had for the character. I thought with "Power" he was building up a nice political thriller. I really liked the creation of the Desturi and the Broker.

    I do agree with you that Marvel has done some stupid things with T'Challa. I also agree with you that T'Challa should've been restored as king and the sole Black Panther. I like Shuri but I wish they would make her another character.
     
    #115
  16. DrCosmic

    DrCosmic Professor of Power

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    I nitpick to much, but seriously, the British chick distinctly said they were NOT going to make the Ms Marvel movie, so she was actually quite right. Neither did Latino Review say they would announce anything at comic con, except, y'know GotG.
     
    #116
  17. roach

    roach I am the night

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    from the limited amount of insider info I have I knew BP wasn't going to be announced...they are looking hard at how to do it and they have yet to meet with a director that has a firm grasp of the character...I don't know who they met with from what I understand they are looking at a lot of black directors
     
    #117
  18. E-Man

    E-Man Cooler than your daddy.

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    Basically they're wondering how they can make a white guy the main star while not taking a complete dump on Black Panther as a character. I think the biggest issue they probably have is that the country Black Panther hails from is 100% black, and we can't have that. I bet there wouldn't be a problem if Wakanda was some European country full of white people. This really isn't that much different from Thor when you think about it, but too many black people on screen at once could cause the world to end as we know it.
     
    #118
  19. DarKush

    DarKush Well-Known Member

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    ^
    Actually I think it is a different issue than Thor. For one, Thor is the white guy so there's no need to go look for a white guy to be the real star of the film, as you suggested. Two, Thor is a mythological figure and people (white and non-black, though certainly some blacks too) would probably be generally more accepting of a fantasy world with trolls and frost giants than the idea of a technologically advanced African society.

    As for Panther, the white guy issue is pretty simple. Hire a big name to be Klaw. And show him a lot in the promotional materials.

    Panther is going to be a tough sale, but with the success of the Blade films, Hancock (and other Will Smith genre films), and even black romantic comedies like Think Like a Man, and not to mention how hot comic book films are right now, I think this is the best time for Marvel to do a Panther film. I hope they don't sit on their hands until the trend starts waning and then release a Panther film, it doesn't do well, and they blame it on the character's race or subject matter solely being the reason for its failure.
     
    #119
  20. Lightning Strykez!

    Lightning Strykez! Former Mod On Pension Pay

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    1.) I don't see why we MUST have a black director to do a proper BP film. I want a STRONG director, whether he's black, white or whatever. There are plenty of white directors who are more than capable of managing this story successfully.

    We need someone who has a firm grasp on action film development. Please Marvel, don't pity out on the color issue. Look at Tim Story: black and out of his league on the FF franchise. Get someone qualified.

    2.) Villain? Kraven The Hunter. F...T...W....:up:
     
    #120
  21. ShredderX

    ShredderX Well-Known Member

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    "He has a lot of the same characteristics of a Captain America: great character, good values...but it's a little more difficult, maybe, creating (a world like Wakanda). It's always easier basing it here (America). For instance, 'Iron Man 3' is rooted right here in Los Angeles and New York. When you bring in other worlds, you're always faced with those difficulties." - Marvel Co-President Louis D' Esposito @ SDCC Marvel panel on why Marvel won't make a Black Panther film

    Sounds like a major cop-out from Marvel. You can create a fictional place like Asgard, but Wakanda is difficult ? The African Kingdom of " Coming to America ", was basically Wakanda, just add a big panther statue and some high tech vehicles and buildings.
     
    #121
  22. spideymouse

    spideymouse Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, we're discussing this in another thread, too. What's even more bullcrap is that he had just finished calling Guardians of the Galaxy (which of course was announced the next day) "a great concept."

    Even if they have no plans to make a BP film at this point in the MCU, he still should have been excited to talk about it/optimistic about the prospects. He practically gave away before the Iron Man 3 panel that Black Panther would not be the second 2014 movie. And he also gave a weak-ass explanation for it.

    But maybe I'm wrong. I mean no irony in saying that maybe where Hollywood is these days, it really is easier to make a space adventure movie with a badass raccoon and a walking tree than it is to depict Wakanda in a way that seems plausible and modern yet steeped in fictional tradition. Maybe Marvel wants to be culturally sensitive and put lots of research into all different African countries/customs/values systems before they make some potentially terrible decisions. There is no reference point for Asgard besides Kirby and maybe Shakespeare. Because there are certain reference points for Wakanda, perhaps an American movie studio would want to make sure that Wakanda wasn't some ignorant projection of American/Westernized ideas of what nations in Africa are like.
     
    #122
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2012
  23. Captain Marvel

    Captain Marvel SHAZAM!

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    He's a Spider-Man villain and more likely owned by Sony. And why would Kraven be used in a Black Panther movie, anyway?
     
    #123
  24. Spider-Vader

    Spider-Vader Mercin' & Workin'

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    I think they should borrow from the Avengers episode & have Panther fight off HYDRA. Perhaps have HYDRA helping Man-Ape overthrow Wakanda to get vibranium.
     
    #124
  25. terry78

    terry78 I'm gonna need more rope

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    I want Bryan Cranston for Klaw now, after seriously thinking about it. Waltz is kind of on the nose, but Cranston just has that villain look.
     
    #125
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