Fant4stic Fant4stic: Reborn! - - - - - - Part 40

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I agree. Fox have failed at everything that isn't the X-Men. (Even then, they really managed to get Cyclops and Deadpool so wrong that they had to reboot everything.)

Honestly I don't like the first 3 X-men. Origins obviously was ****. The wolverine was on the right track but ultimately disappointing. First Class was a nice breath of fresh air and DOFP upon first viewing was good but fell apart for me after that. Seems like the lack of Vaughn in Fox films really hurts them. Apocalypse looks like it could go either way so far if im being completely honest. Apocalypse himself looks butchered and the trailer was really bad imo. So yeah, overall I haven't been thrilled with the foX-Men. I can only hope Deadpool will be good. The costume and marketing has been great. At the same time, I feel like the trailer was kinda weak.
 
Ended up seeing this with a buddy of mine and all i have to say is UNDERWHELMING.

Things I liked:
1) First act was good
2)The first trip to planet zero and the suspense of the crash and body horror was really well done. (very creepy seeing Johnny unconscious on fire) and Reed crawling to Ben with his legs all stretched.
3) When Doom wakes up and kills all the scientists and guards
4) Thing scenes were pretty rad

Things I Hated:
1) The third act was super rushed
2)Awkward pacing throughout the movie
3)CGI was sad during planet zero
 
They had no choice. Unless they released it this year, it was going back to Marvel. They were not prepared to let 122m go down the drain only to have F4 help strengthen their corporate enemy Disney.

They really should have just sold the rights back.

I agree. They would have made more money that way.
 
The Fantastic Flop
The Fanfourstic Snore

Really what should we rename this movie?

Also let us recall post after post defending this movie and all the derision people received for wanting the rights to go back to Marvel Studios.

The tears are delicious, unfortunately this movie being the piece of crap some of us knew it would be doesn't mean the rights will be sold back.

Fox will likely just sit on the property for another 7 years because they are legally entitled to do so and since they seem like a bitter corporate entity they would probably demand more money than Disney is willing to pay for a property they've devalued.
 
John Campea on the Collider Movie Talk saying he's heard from very credible sources (sources once again) that in pre production, Fox came in and got rid of 3 GODDAM set pieces to lower the budget.
 
Ended up seeing this with a buddy of mine and all i have to say is UNDERWHELMING.

Things I liked:
1) First act was good
2)The first trip to planet zero and the suspense of the crash and body horror was really well done. (very creepy seeing Johnny unconscious on fire) and Reed crawling to Ben with his legs all stretched.
3) When Doom wakes up and kills all the scientists and guards
4) Thing scenes were pretty rad

Things I Hated:
1) The third act was super rushed
2)Awkward pacing throughout the movie
3)CGI was sad during planet zero

How may people were in your theater, was it sparse or pretty packed?
 
John Campea on the Collider Movie Talk saying he's heard from very credible sources (sources once again) that in pre production, Fox came in and got rid of 3 GODDAM set pieces to lower the budget.

Dude that happens to tons of big movies. Tons of movies have to work around losing pre-conceived sequences characters, etc. The first X-Men was supposed to have a bigger budget, more characters. Beast was removed shortly before shooting began. X-Men 2 was supposed to have Sentinels, the Danger Room, and Toad and a Toad/Nightcrawler fight. The Danger Room scene was even written and storyboarded out. You even see the entrance in the base.
 
So, here we are on opening day for Fantastic Four, and it would appear the film is already stillborn, sank by some of the worst reviews ever received by a superhero film. I did not think it was a good movie, though I wouldn't quite say it was 8% on Rotten Tomatoes bad, Catwoman bad. Still, regardless of my or anyone else's opinion, it can't be denied that the official story of Fantastic Four is that it's an utter failure, so now the postmortem begins, and the question becomes, "Who is to blame for this?" I've seen a lot of speculation on that topic, so I thought I'd interject with some of my own thoughts.

I feel like the cast were largely vindicated. For the most part, they seemed to do the best they could with the shoddy material they were given, and by the end I was left believing that this cast could totally have pulled off being the Fantastic Four and Doom in a better film. And for all the borderline-racist (and often more than just borderline) rhetoric against Michael B. Jordan - not here so much, thankfully, mainly elsewhere - I've not seen a single review single out him being black as any reason for the film's failure.

The next step up in the pyramid is Josh Trank. And while I pointed out that this is very much a film of two halves, a promising opening that falls apart from "One Year Later" onwards, I still don't believe that Trank would have made a masterpiece if Fox hadn't stepped in and ruined everything. The ending might feel like it was stage-managed by soulless corporate execs, and them stepping in probably didn't help matters and likely made things worse, but the fact that they felt they had to step in suggests there was something deeply wrong, and there are hints of that running through even the stronger parts of the film. While many were hand-wringing over the casting or the costumes, a much bigger warning sign of impending disaster for me was reports of Josh Trank's erratic, unprofessional behaviour on-set, and his subsequent firing from his Star Wars gig. That paired with his poor attitude online suggested an egotistical diva director without the talent or clout to back it up. Furthermore, him denouncing the film just before its release is a dick move. If you genuinely have integrity and feel the film being released isn't your film, you Alan Smithee yourself and take your name off it, or better yet, have a level-headed discussion with the producer that you have different visions and walk off amicably before the film gets made, like Edgar Wright did. You don't cling on until the bad reviews come in THEN run from the blame, leaving your actors and the studio holding the bag. He made it, he kept his name on it, and on a film like this, managing and working around studio interference is part of the job. He has to own at least part of the blame. Having said that, though, perhaps he isn't due the lion's share, as on a project like this, I imagine very few directors could have salvaged anything worthwhile out of this.

Because ultimately, the true blame lies at the feet not of the cast or the director, but at Fox, because from its very inception, this project was a cynical rights grab and a rush-job, being made for all the wrong reasons. It wasn't being made because they had a good story to tell, or they thought they had a marketable project, or they believed in the property. It was made because the rights were due to return to Marvel and they had to excrete SOMETHING out. And the fact that $100+ million can be splurged on what is the cinematic equivalent of a shrug and a "Meh, that'll do" is pretty damn shocking, and an indictment of the worst of film blockbuster culture and Hollywood excess. Any film working from these motivations as a starting point is at the very least faced with an extreme uphill struggle, and at worst utterly doomed from the outset.
 
The intentions were not good for sure. Trank however didn't come in, wanting to make it bad, it's like Landis said, nobody wants to make a bad movie.

It's been said but watching the movie, especially the first half with the more grounded, realistic tone, the body horror (and the heads popping off in the last third (cool scene actually until the horrible fight) ), it's just Trank's vision clashing with Fox's vision. Trank wanting to do something different, maybe edgier, and Fox wanting to do god knows what considering how terribly campy and cheesy the two FF movies were. And maybe that's the real problem here. Trank having a vision (his real version might not be a masterpiece but seeing the first half, it'd probably be something else), and Fox not having one precisely since the way the project started is just plain negative, so they scrambled and didn't even try.
 
The intentions were not good for sure. Trank however didn't come in, wanting to make it bad, it's like Landis said, nobody wants to make a bad movie.

It's been said but watching the movie, especially the first half with the more grounded, realistic tone, the body horror (and the heads popping off in the last third (cool scene actually until the horrible fight) ), it's just Trank's vision clashing with Fox's vision. Trank wanting to do something different, maybe edgier, and Fox wanting to do god knows what considering how terribly campy and cheesy the two FF movies were. And maybe that's the real problem here. Trank having a vision (his real version might not be a masterpiece but seeing the first half, it'd probably be something else), and Fox not having one precisely since the way the project started is just plain negative, so they scrambled and didn't even try.

That could be a point. I imagine Trank's vision would have had its controversial elements that people would have hated. But here's something that a lot of fans might not want to admit: it would have been theoretically possible for Trank to make an FF movie with changes to the source material that drove hardcore fans crazy, which was also good. But Fox seemed intent on coming in and dulling down the sharp edges of Trank's approach, but without really a vision of their own to substitute. So the end result is something bland and stage-managed without any real creative identity.
 
That could be a point. I imagine Trank's vision would have had its controversial elements that people would have hated. But here's something that a lot of fans might not want to admit: it would have been theoretically possible for Trank to make an FF movie with changes to the source material that drove hardcore fans crazy, which was also good. But Fox seemed intent on coming in and dulling down the sharp edges of Trank's approach, but without really a vision of their own to substitute. So the end result is something bland and stage-managed without any real creative identity.

That's pretty much exactly my review. Whether or not Tranks vision would have been better is debatable, but I'm sure it would've been far more interesting than what we got.
 
Haven't seen this yet, but read some reviews, and even though it's getting majorly slammed everywhere the things that I was looking forward to (mainly the cast) seems to be very solid. I doubt I'll pay to see it, but I wouldn't be surprised if I ended up enjoying it just as a movie in itself.

I figured all along it would be bad as a representation of the comic FF, but it always sounded interesting and the cast was always solid in my eyes. I'm curious as to how much it will make at the box office.

Can anyone who's seen it comment on how it is as a film, comic accuracy notwithstanding? From what I've read it seems like it's 2/3 solid 1/3 rushed, although I'm not quite sure what rushed means without seeing it yet.

Can't say I'm hopeful about it, but I'm still interested in seeing it. Some reviews made it sound like a sequel would be in good position to grow the story and that this was a pretty good origin/base for going forward.
 
That could be a point. I imagine Trank's vision would have had its controversial elements that people would have hated. But here's something that a lot of fans might not want to admit: it would have been theoretically possible for Trank to make an FF movie with changes to the source material that drove hardcore fans crazy, which was also good. But Fox seemed intent on coming in and dulling down the sharp edges of Trank's approach, but without really a vision of their own to substitute. So the end result is something bland and stage-managed without any real creative identity.

I'm no hardcore fan, but what you said about Trank making a FF movie that was a drastic change to the comics was actually what had me so interested early on. I never cared for the first 2 and this seemed like a fresh and different take on those characters which could have possibly been a good movie on its own, which is really what I look for in these CBMs, good movie first then any good comic accuracy is a plus.

Oh well, at least Deadpool and Apocalypse look cool. And there's about a million other CBMs that look great coming next year too. This is the first CBM stinker in like 8 years (if it's truly as bad as being said). I can't think of any CBM post Ironman that I didn't enjoy. (Although there may be a few in there I'm not recalling lol
 
Exactly. I understand in a way when fans get upset when canon is not respected or else but it's an adaptation, why do exactly the things the comic books do, what is the point then? And that's the thing, like every literary adaptation, ultimately, it's down to the director, writers, etc, etc to bring their vision to the screen and I remember being really excited about the first FF trailer, a nice feel to it, something intriguing.

It almost always ends up badly when a studio takes a movie from the director's hands, some execs like Landis said are creative, but how many of them actually know what it is to direct a movie through and through, reminds me of Billy Walsh in Entourage calling E a suit, the suits, money men, here to make money. It's an over exaggeration for sure but how many movies have been destroyed by studios or by producers taking over and releasing their "producer's cut" over what the director intended.
 
More or less, the guys not behind the camera or in front of the camera in the business are there to make money. It is what it is. There are a lot of producers and what not that genuinely do want to see passion in the projects they have a hand in, but they still want it to turn a profit.
 
But bad test screenings happen even to superhero movies that are shot as "superhero movies" (and have action) unlike Trank's actionless Cronenbergian flick. Webb's first TASM tested so badly it was recut in a panic to even make the deadline, and a whole storyline was dropped completely (the nonsense about Peter's parents - i.e. "the untold story" which promptly vanished from the promotional materials in the spring).
 
Exactly. I understand in a way when fans get upset when canon is not respected or else but it's an adaptation, why do exactly the things the comic books do, what is the point then? And that's the thing, like every literary adaptation, ultimately, it's down to the director, writers, etc, etc to bring their vision to the screen and I remember being really excited about the first FF trailer, a nice feel to it, something intriguing.

It almost always ends up badly when a studio takes a movie from the director's hands, some execs like Landis said are creative, but how many of them actually know what it is to direct a movie through and through, reminds me of Billy Walsh in Entourage calling E a suit, the suits, money men, here to make money. It's an over exaggeration for sure but how many movies have been destroyed by studios or by producers taking over and releasing their "producer's cut" over what the director intended.

You don't understand why lifelong fans of the Fantastic Four who are now living in a veritable Golden Age of Comic Book Movies - despite FOUR miserable attempts - have yet to get even just ONE well-made faithful adaptation on the big screen? Further, if an adaptation strays so far from the source material that it no longer even represents the source material I ask you: what is the point? Why not just make an original story based on original characters? By saying you are adapting an existing beloved property that comes with an unspoken promise to the fans that you are going to honor that property so that the fans of the material who made it a success to begin with will actually want to see it and will enjoy it! Using the word "adaptation" is not some blank check for someone to ride the coattails of another successful creative property just to do whatever the hell they feel like doing.
 
X-Men 2 was supposed to have Sentinels, the Danger Room, and Toad and a Toad/Nightcrawler fight.
This is an element of the X-Men films I've always found frustrating. The fight scenes between different characters could have been/be epic. The potential is always there, but Fox seemingly does whatever it can to screw it up. The moment I realized that Colossus vs. Juggernaut wouldn't happen in X3, I knew that film was doomed (among other reasons). The FC fight between Beast and Azazel was cool, but that is the bar that the mutant fights should have with each other.

Fox always seems to have a trend of over emphasizing certain characters and under utilizing others. We are going into Age of Apocalypse already, and where is Sinister?

It's the same thing with FF. Three movies, and Fox could not understand that a different villain(s) could have been used (the talking cloud doesn't count) beyond Doom.

For the more recent things Fox has done right, they are greatly outweighed by what it gets very wrong. Here we are in the golden age of comic book movies, and there is a noticeable foul stench ruining the experience called Fox.
 
I do think that fans complain way too much about any change, no matter how small, that is made but that still doesn't change FF's special case in particular. It's at a studio that hates the property and was directed by someone whom obviously dislikes the property as well. Nobody involved actually liked the Fantastic Four and thus you get something like the new film coming out and stinking up theaters. I suppose the hatred wouldn't mean as much if the film we're actually decent.
 
You don't understand why lifelong fans of the Fantastic Four who are now living in a veritable Golden Age of Comic Book Movies - despite FOUR miserable attempts - have yet to get even just ONE well-made faithful adaptation on the big screen? Further, if an adaptation strays so far from the source material that it no longer even represents the source material I ask you: what is the point? Why not just make an original story based on original characters? By saying you are adapting an existing beloved property that comes with an unspoken promise to the fans that you are going to honor that property so that the fans of the material who made it a success to begin with will actually want to see it and will enjoy it! Using the word "adaptation" is not some blank check for someone to ride the coattails of another successful creative property just to do whatever the hell they feel like doing.

I was speaking generally, not about FF especially which for some reason always seems to fail.
 
I was speaking generally, not about FF especially which for some reason always seems to fail.

Yeah I'm not usually one to complain - as many of the faults of the X-Men - I don't usually bring them up (unless goaded into it) because the films are more often than not enjoyable and are generally handled with competency and care - but the FF just makes my blood boil. It's criminal what is happening to them. And it's all Fox's fault.
 
I still haven't seen any evidence that Trank's movie would've been that good either.

I mean by all accounts this film is a mess in terms of editing. But idk I still dony see why people are so sure that Trank would've made a good movie if FOX didn't interfere.


When it comes to changes, they're fine as long as they still keep the spirit of the source material. Joker not having perma-bleached skin? Fine. It's not like Joke didnt have white skin at all.
It just didn't seem like Trank respected the source material enough to keep the spirit of it.
 
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