Fantastic Four General News & Discussion Thread (TAG SPOILERS)

Discussion in 'Fantastic Four' started by flickchick85, Feb 26, 2021.

  1. Marvel united Omega level Mutant

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    youknowwhy-guess.gif
     
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  2. Willie Lumpkin Trophy Husband

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    I think you and I are in agreement.

    My comment about not fixing the world related to a general concept of “Hey, there is racism and other ugly things in the world. What should Comic Book movies do to fix that?”

    And I don’t think that’s their primary objective and we shouldn’t put that weighty responsibility on them. That’s for you and I to address in our actual lives.

    But in the case of Doom, he has a certain ethnic background, and that background was chosen for a reason and the films should stick to that.
     
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  3. Zarex Registered

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    Though Victor's ethnic background is Romani, he has most often been depicted visually as a white fella in comics and cartoons, and rules an Eastern European nation populated by similarly light skinned folks. The live action versions thus far have been consistent with the idea of caucasian Doom. So casting Dr. Doom with a POC is inconsistent with what we've seen of the character.

    But it's a great idea to cast Doom with a POC. I would like MCU Doom to be a bit more nuanced than just evil world conqueror, so that would prevent seeing the depiction as unfair to Romani people. I'm not sure if Feige and company should specifically cast folks of Romani descent or if a person of Indian ancestry would be appropriate. I see that the late Yul Brynner was Romani, and he would have been a fantastic Victor Von Doom back in the day.
     
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  4. Stark Bauer Mr. Feige- cast me as MCU Darkhawk

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    personally they are a respective people group called the Romani. Yes they do have features that I would consider to belong to "white" people. The fact that they are of a more tanned complexion is one of the distinguishing factors. Have you seen latin people? They look similar to Romanis as well, Indians too, and mediterranean and middle eastern people too.

    Speaking from personal experience, people assumed most of my life that I was Chinese because to many non-Asians who cannot distinguish, they think all Asian people look the same and so they assume any Asian is Chinese. By that standard then, people who are not Romani would assume they are possibly Latino/a, or Indian or possibly even white. I think this is incorrect and we should be referred to by our name not our ethnicity. If we are to be identified by ethnicity, then at least let it be more accurate.

    I speak for myself when I say I respect Romani people and their culture, but those who remain ignorant about these people may incorrectly assume they are either "white" or Indian or Latino or some generic European group because they dont have the time to even research it.

    I hope that Marvel do take this into account when addressing Latveria and social customs of Romanis as well as their culture and heritage.
     
  5. Stark Bauer Mr. Feige- cast me as MCU Darkhawk

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    i agree. comics should be escapism. but when addressing issues like race, they should do so respectfully and in a historically accurate way. so there needs to be a balance.
     
  6. Marvel united Omega level Mutant

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    I mean, of course I'm not saying that these filmmakers have a responsibility to singlehandedly solve the problem of social inequality in the world :funny: That's impossible ofc. But art is a reflection of reality; a venue through which (radical) ideas are shared, and beliefs are expressed. Some of Kirby & Lee's own radical positions FOR the time, can be seen in their characters (e.g. Captain America, Black Panther).

    Media can, has, and always will be, a vehicle to demonstrate a certain set of beliefs/point of view. And it can either be used as tool to educate (e.g. shining a light on lesser-known injustices/struggles), or a weapon to deceive & indoctrinate.

    As you know, the latter is the story of history :csad:

    Imagine flashing back to Doom's childhood at an appropriate time, and having it be ANYWHERE near as impactful as the opening of the first X-Men film.

    To be fair, so was Jubilee. In fact, some people didn't even know she was supposed to be Chinese-American, including but not limited to, producers at 20 Century Fox :funny: Natalie Portman was considered for the role of Jubilation Lee in earlier drafts of the script, and the producers were none the wiser.

    I think, if anything, it's a symptom of these artists not doing a very good job depicting any POC who isn't black, and even then, there's some leeway to get it wrong. Roberto da Costa was envsioned and drawn as a dark-skinned, Afro-Latino teenager, by Chris Claremont and Bob McLeod. Roberto's origin was baked into his race, as a Black kid.

    But that didn't stop subsequent artists from McLeod, and filmmakers (as you saw), from whitewashing the character. And I think it's also combined with this general assumption that everyone in Europe, even Eastern Europe, is white. Most people who have never actually seen a Romani person, assume they are no different from a white Germanic person, or assume they're Romanian. And neither could be further from the truth of the discrimination that the Roma experience all across Eastern Europe as a racial minority.

    It's interesting. Reading up on it, there are some parallels to how African-Americans are treated in the states. Even some of the anti-Roma stereotypes perpetuated to justify the discrimination, are earlily similar to what is said about us over here :funny:

    Some conditions of oppression are universal
     
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  7. Fluedd Registered

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    Here you have a nice opportunity to have a Chinese American character, because she is such in the comics. So it seems to me you would want to follow through with that.

    Of course, studios aren't squeamish about changing white comic book characters to other races or genders if it suits their interests. Honestly, changing the race from white characters doesn't much bother me for the most part. However, we're talking about the Fantastic Four here and the key issue here with me is these are my favorite characters. I grew up reading them since I was a kid, I feel like I know them. In some incorrect way, I feel like they belong to me in a way. So I want to see them depicted the way I've always known them in the comics. I'm sure some will think I'm being unreasonable or might call me names or whatever, but that's the way I feel, because these are my favorite comic book characters, ever, and I want to see them onscreen.

    Michael B. Jordan is a good actor. But he isn't Johnny Storm. He just isn't. And Sue was not adopted, and they were not step siblings. If you want to change characters out of some sense of the greater good, have at it. Just leave my favorite team alone. You can change the people around them (like the first movie changed Alicia's race) if you feel the need, but leave the core team the way Lee and Kirby created them.
     
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  8. Frodo Registered

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    At this point, I'm open to seeing what they give us in terms of a cast.

    These characters aren't static and frozen in 1962, and inevitably, whether fans agree with it or not, they're going to be adapted in different ways by different filmmakers.

    That could to include casting POC in the roles.

    If it's a diverse cast, I'm fine with that ,regardless of the original vision and conception of the characters in the 1960s.

    What's important to me ,is that they cast good actors who have an opportunity to bring more to these roles than the prior casts were able to.
     
  9. Fluedd Registered

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    They may have been created in 1962, but they didn't stop existing then. They've been appearing in comics over the last nearly 60 years, and they've built up a rich legacy during that entire time. They were the first Marvel comic. If they would have had a previous movie that was worthy of that legacy, I would be more open to changing their characters. But since we haven't yet seen an adaptation that is true to the source material, I would like to see one. I don't think that is so much to ask. Other top heroes have had that, why should the Fantastic Four be the exception?
     
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  10. Frodo Registered

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    My point is that these characters have constantly changed and evolved, and they will continue to change and evolve for another 60 years , hopefully.

    Like it or not, different artists, filmmakers, story tellers are going to approach these characters differently, and they already have over the past 60 odd years.

    Now, I don't know what you mean when you say we haven't had an adaptation "true to the source material." You're gonna have to be specific.

    There have been several cartoons, 3 official films , and 1 unreleased film that have been made over the past 60 years.

    Are you talking about the origin? How the characters have been portrayed? What storylines have been used in the films?

    I can pretty much guarantee you that when the characters are adapted into the MCU it won't be exactly like the comics .

    It's going to be under the circumstances of the MCU, and that's probably not gonna be exactly like the original comic, if that's what you're expecting .

    It may capture the spirit of the source material, which includes decades worth of comics and stories beyond the creators run.

    Regardless, I don't see how not having previous versions which, as you say " aren't true to the source material" means that the next time it's done, the team can't, or shouldn't, be made up of racially diverse actors .

    I don't see the connection other than wanting the aesthetic of an all white team.

    I'm fine with a diverse team or an all white team. Again, for me the priority is for there to be good actors and a good story .
     
    #610 Frodo, Jan 24, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
  11. Fluedd Registered

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    Sorry, I meant to say a good movie true to the source material. Basically they haven't had a worthy adaptation of the comic yet. That's my opinion but I don't think it's a rare one. Give us one good adaptation, and then they can start experimenting with it if they want.

    As I said before, admittedly maybe I'm too much of a purist. As a big Tolkien fan, I still have problems with a lot of the choices made by Peter Jackson in the LOTR films. They were still good, but there were little things that bugged me. Because I'm a Tolkien purist.

    Similarly, I want to see the Fantastic Four's legacy treated with respect. They are the cornerstone of Marvel Comics. To me, and to many others who remember when the FF was the clear flagship team of the company, they are every bit as iconic as Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, etc. You don't start out any of those characters by changing their race. Once they've made a successful film or several, then you can start thinking about tweaking them. I don't want to see a white Black Panther or a white Luke Cage or a Jewish Ms. Marvel, why would I want to see a black FF? And again, bear in mind these are my favorite comic book heroes. If that weren't the case, I probably wouldn't care. I'm guessing they are not your favorites, or you wouldn't be so flexible about how they are portrayed.
     
  12. Stark Bauer Mr. Feige- cast me as MCU Darkhawk

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    i think what he is trying to say is there has not been an adaptation of the FF so far that honours the legacy of the comics, and that has been universally successful to the same degree as almost all the iterations of the Batman, Spider-Man, and even the first 2 X-Men movies as well most of the MCU entries. If we can get a movie that delivers emotionally, and satisfies the core fanbase, as well as appealing to the masses to the same degree as most of the other successful MCU franchises (i am looking at Avengers and GOTG), then I personally can say they were true to the source material and they NAILED the FF. Feel free to diversify and change it after you give us an epic trilogy.
     
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  13. Stark Bauer Mr. Feige- cast me as MCU Darkhawk

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    right. a serious comparison would be Sonic the hedgehog. Heck they made him a hedghog and blue, but many fans complained that he looked scary/did not look like Sonic. Now imagine they made sonic purple. He's purple. Big deal. You say. Not to purists. He's sonic the hedghog why not add diversity and make him sonic the porcupine, no one will give a darn you say. watch the fans not support you and the movie will tank or perform mediocre or very poorly. That is what happens when you go woke instead of pleasing the fanbase. You lose the fans trust and money.
     
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  14. Frodo Registered

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    Well, that's what we all want .
    That what I want.
    What I don't see, is how having a diverse cast in itself prevents us from getting that type of film.

    Whether its a diverse cast or not, I believe that's the type of film or series of films we'll get.
    I trust Feige.
     
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  15. Frodo Registered

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    Well, I don't agree with your philosophy in terms of what you can and can't do.
    It's not a one or the other thing that you must have a successful all White version ,before you can have a multiracial version.
    If that's what you're saying, I don't buy it, or agree with that at all.
    You can do both.

    As far as what I'm flexible about, you shouldn't assume what I would and wouldn't tolerate without knowing my position.

    I'm very flexible about characters I care about, and I love Batman, Spiderman, and WW, and I wouldn't mind if they cast POC as those characters in a future version.

    I wouldn't feel hurt or upset if I found out a Chinese American actor were cast as Clark Kent, or a Black actor was cast as Peter.
    I would be more upset if Superman was a womanizing egotist, and Peter was a dark , punisher like figure who had a cave and Butler.

    Those are the type of changes I would be concerned about, and I wouldn't breath a sigh of relief because " at least they're White".

    If they cast a Chinese American actor to play a bumbling Clark who's head over heels for Lois, I'm good.

    I've been fans of these characters since the 80s.

    F4 were the first comics I collected back in the day.
    Chris Reeve is my Superman, Keaton is my Batman.
    That doesn't mean I'm going to hit the ceiling if a non White actor takes the roles.

    I know alot of fans have trouble with that type of position , but it's how I feel.
    My Loving a character doesn't mean I'm against casting actors of different ethnicities in the parts.
     
  16. Detective Conan Registered

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    Wow, so much wrong with this post. Where to even begin.

    1 The Fantastic Four are not as iconic as Batman and Superman, or even Wonder Woman, lol. That’s just plain incorrect.

    2. Unlike BP, or even Luke Cage, there’s nothing race-specific about Reed Richards, Sue Storm, and Johnny. You can cast just about any race, and nothing would be lost. Ben Grimm is actually where I do think his ethnicity is important, and I hope they cast properly but the rest I wouldn’t care.
     
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  17. Fluedd Registered

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    They are to me, that's my point. And I think the FF are just as important in their way, because the FF launched Marvel Comics. Without the FF, Stan Lee leaves Marvel Comics, without creating all those superheroes, and we don't have Spider-Man, the Avengers, the MCU, none of this. And of course no Dr. Doom.

    I like that when Stan Lee appeared on Big Bang Theory, he chose to wear a Fantastic Four bathrobe. Because he knows they were the foundation of the entire Marvel universe. When Marvel sold the film rights to what they considered their three most valuable properties, the FF was one of them (Spider-Man and the X-Men being the others). Unfortunately, the garbage FF movies have hurt their value some.

    As for race, no one is "hitting the ceiling" here. I would rather have a good multiracial movie than a lousy white movie. But if you ask what I want, I want the team to look like they do in the comics. As I said, I'm a purist. I'll be upset (mildly) if Johnny and Sue don't have blonde hair. Tony Stark in the MCU looked like he walked off the pages of the comic books, that's what I want with the FF.

    And you're right, Ben should be Jewish, I want that. Because that's what he is in the comics. But if his ethnicity is important, so should the rest of the team's. Ben being Jewish was actually something that was written in several decades after the character was created.
     
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  18. Detective Conan Registered

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    To you, the F4 are that important, but to most of the mainstream they simply don’t hold them on that high a pedestal in terms of iconic characters. Which is my point. Certainly not enough to care if those characters are race-swapped. The F4 fanbase is fairly small, and while they hold historical value to Marvel as the first family but their popularity definitely has waned, and that isn’t solely because of bad movies. A lot of that is also do to creative stagnation of the books themselves. Even if the F4 were on that level, and still were as popular as they used to be I still wouldn’t mind or care that much about them being changed racially. Just give me a good movie.

    while I actually don’t mind Ben being changed, I think there’s a better argument for keeping him Jewish considering that Kirby very clearly meant for him to be his self insert, and he did depict Ben as Jewish in this picture below:


    [​IMG]

    However, there’s nothing intrinsically white or Caucasian about the rest. Reed, Sue, Johnny could be played by just about any race and I wouldn’t care as what’s most important to me is the actor capturing the spirit of the original character. Which doesn’t necessarily always mean looking part exactly. That could mean just the actor nailing the overall personality and vibe of the character they’re playing.
     
    #618 Detective Conan, Jan 24, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2022
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  19. Fluedd Registered

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    I've read every issue of the FF, and I don't think the stories have stagnated. I think the current run is pretty good. They've had some ups and downs but I can't remember a time when the book was truly awful. They've had a few artists I didn't care for.

    Anyway, I wasn't saying they were that popular, although there was a time in the '60s when I believe they were the #1 selling book. There was a reason they had that "World's Greatest Comics Magazine" tag on it. But from a historical standpoint, there are few books that can match their legacy, that's why I say they are iconic. I don't think Stan Lee ever considered them unimportant.

    In any case, they are my favorite comic book characters and I want to see them depicted as they are in the comics. Yeah, if they weren't my favorite I probably wouldn't give a rat's behind. But if it weren't for the FF, I doubt I would be that big of a Marvel fan anyway.
     
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  20. Crimz Registered

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    The Fantastic Four are My favourite superheroes, especially Sue. But I have no problems with the MCU versions of Reed, Sue and Johnny being a different race. It's not an important aspect of the characters, nothing about who they are or their themes changes when you change their race. So if Marvel wants them to be more diverse then I have no issue.

    Changes are going to happen and frankly, the FF need changes. In the comics they've have stagnated for so long relying on nostalgia that I welcome change. Sue will most likely have a field of expertise like she should have decades ago and a personality outside of being a mother. That's one likely change that the team needs. Things are not going to be exact recreations of Lee/Kirby's run, and they shouldn't be.
     
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  21. Stark Bauer Mr. Feige- cast me as MCU Darkhawk

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    to know how those of us who want comic characters to be portrayed faithfully (the way they are depicted in comic books) feel let me offer this:

    how would African-Latino people feel if they made Miles Morales a white irish girl Maureen O'Malley? Thats how I feel about the FF.

    It has nothing to do with race but everything to do with being faithful to the comic books, both in appearance and characterization. I am not against diversity, I think we should have super heroes of all ethnic groups and cultures, but dont shoe horn that in. Rather, be original. Be creative and make new characters specific to that group, like they did with Miles Morales. Which Into the Spiderverse has proven, does work,

    "1 The Fantastic Four are not as iconic as Batman and Superman, or even Wonder Woman, lol. That’s just plain incorrect."

    I would argue that they are. The Incredibles is essentially the fantastic four by Pixar/Disney. That concept of a superhero family remains one of the top grossing movies of all time. That shows that a Fantastic Four movie DONE RIGHT can gross at least over 400 million and possibly rival The Avengers BO numbers. Iron Man was not iconic before 2008 but that all changed with one good movie. Fantastic Four are iconic and that is DESPITE having a movie as good as the first Iron Man. I have a feeling this MCU FF will make them the biggest super hero franchise just under SPiderman Batman and Avengers.
     
    #621 Stark Bauer, Jan 25, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022
  22. Detective Conan Registered

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    See, I respect that. I don’t question your fandom for these characters. You’re no doubt a legit fan and you only want an adaption that is as authentic as possible to the comics you grew up reading , but I think — and feel free to disagree with my opinion, but I think your sentiment of, “I don’t want characters I care about to be played by POC!” has a little bit of a more ugly undertone that I think you’re not realizing or even care to realize. Certainly you wouldn’t care if characters like, I dunno, Willie Lumpkin got race-swapped since he’s a minor character that anyone hardly cares about but the major characters who at best have always been race neutral shouldn’t because…they’re your favorite characters? I mean, I dunno whether you realize this or not, but you’re kind of implying that race-changing them would be ruinous and “soil” them. When that just isn’t the case.

    Now I’m not accusing you of racism or anything as I can understand where you’re coming from, but again what is intrinsically white about these three characters that changing them would majorly impede upon the adaption in any way?
     
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  23. Detective Conan Registered

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    That isn’t the same thing, lol. Reed, Sue, and Johnny and to some extent Ben were never created from the onset to serve as representation for an underrepresented group like virtually any POC character would be. This is a bad example, and you essentially torched your argument into smithereens.

    I think there’s room for both.


    They’re really not, you’re overstating their popularity. The Incredibles is not a great example of this. I mean by that logic, wouldn’t Star Wars being as big and popular as it is prove that other similar space opera like Flash Gordon(one of the primary inspirations for Star Wars) was super popular and iconic?
     
  24. metaphysician Not a Side-Kick

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    I would add one addition- there *is* one extra point where ethnicity matters. Specifically, Sue and Johnny should have the *same* ethnicity, because they are siblings. The whole "adoption" angle in the Trank movie was laughable, in that while it was theoretically possible it was also *really* transparent in its actual intent.
     
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  25. Stark Bauer Mr. Feige- cast me as MCU Darkhawk

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    I didnt torch my argument. My argument is, it is ok for fans to demand some accuracy to how a character is depicted in a movie. It has nothing to do with POC or a demographic being "under-represented". The fans demand accuracy. Be that Sonic the Hedgehog looking like he does in the original video games to the way Taskmaster looks more like a power ranger, heck even Apocalypse looked like a power ranger villain. So why not Marvel's First Family?

    There is nothing wrong in staying true to the source material. The F4 just happen to be white - im not even white and i prefer they remain "white" for the sake of how these characters have become ingrained in my psyche.

    That's the way they should look. I know there are many here who could care less about aesthetics and care more for characters and story. I respect that. I think story and characters are more important than physical appearance. But why should we have to sacrifice any of that at all? Just deliver in all departments. People and especially producers labelling fans as hateful, etc. are probably not concerned with staying true to the source material because they probably are not as hardcore as the hardcore (prime example - the director of The Last Jedi. bashing SW fans as misogynists).

    Flash Gordon wasn't super popular and iconic? According to who? Millennials? That's like saying Indiana Jones isn't iconic or super popular. Well yeah, he isn't now. He was iconic in the 80s and 90s. So too was Flash Gordon in his heyday.

     
    #625 Stark Bauer, Jan 25, 2022
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2022

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