Fantastic Four General News & Discussion Thread (TAG SPOILERS)

[Airwings]

megan the robot?

Yes, that's why I spelled it M3gan

 

[Airwings]

There's a lot of problems bringing the FF into the MCU for purists, so it's likely compromises are going to have to be made. For instance, it seems wrong for the FF not to pre-exist the Avengers, but we'll see.

With some of the suggested fan casts (considering the age of the actors), they could have been around as long as Avengers.... but a different Earth.

 

[Dark Raven]

ROFL

Don't forget M3gan and Joker. They can come in and dance in the same scene

Get Kurt Russell back as Ego and it can be an Elvis Mexican standoff between him, Rhys-Meyers and Butler.

 

[Marvel united]

It's interesting that there was some ongoing praise for Jonathan Rhys-Meyers no more than two posts prior when you wrote this.

Driver is the only non-Romani actor who should be accepted as the villain?

Imagine if you said this same thing about T'Challa/Black Panther -- "So what you're saying is that it's a mistake to have Rhys-Meyers as T'Challa, or any of the highly skilled (UK) actors who have done both films and stage work?

It just has to be Boseman or another Black actor?"

See how that sounds? This ain't Othello

 

[Airwings]

Imagine if you said this same thing about T'Challa/Black Panther -- "So what you're saying is that it's a mistake to have Rhys-Meyers as T'Challa, or any of the highly skilled (UK) actors who have done both films and stage work?

It just has to be Boseman or another Black actor?"

See how that sounds? This ain't Othello

It's not the same thing. T'Challa IS African. And it was the very first adaption made
Doom have been played by non-romani actors twice before. That's why it's easier to do the same again

But to nitpick even more, Chadwick Boseman wasn't African but an American

 

[Marvel united]

It's not the same thing. T'Challa IS African. And it was the very first adaption made
Doom have been played by non-romani actors twice before. That's why it's easier to do the same again

But to nitpick even more, Chadwick Boseman wasn't African but an American

But it is the same thing, because you're casting a white actor as a non-white character in both instances, and erasing the backgrounds of both characters.

The fact that it's been done twice, doesn't make it right. It's all the more incentive to not to repeat mistakes of the past, if anything. And I can't for the life of me understand why Feige would do it again.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

Fiege has always said they'll cast who they feel the right actor is for the job. I don’t know if I necessarily believe whoever plays Doom has to be of Romani decent, just as I don't believe whoever is cast as Ben Grimm has to be of Jewish decent. Does it help add authenticity to the character sure, but it's not the end all be all.

 

[Airwings]

But it is the same thing, because you're casting a white actor as a non-white character in both instances, and erasing the backgrounds of both characters.

The fact that it's been done twice, doesn't make it right. It's all the more incentive to not to repeat mistakes of the past, if anything. And I can't for the life of me understand why Feige would do it again.

The mistakes of the past weren't the chosen actors but almost everything else regarding those FF films.
Perhaps we should go with the best actor for Doom. Somebody who's able to bring out every aspect of the villain. I seriously believe Rhys-Meyers is the right one.
Talent should come first.
If they only look at Romani actors, can they still find someone as good as him or will we get stuck with a lesser actor? Is it a risk we're willing to take just to find a Romani guy?
Doom is an eccentric megalomaniac, a larget than life character. That's the reason I previously did suggest a handful of the more mature character actors born in the 60s (some of which have done stage work)
Rhys-Meyers is younger than them (but just as skillfull) and closer in age to the possible FF members.
Imagine what HE can acchieve at his best, without restraints? Let him loose!!!

 

[Marvel united]

Fiege has always said they'll cast who they feel the right actor is for the job. I don’t know if I necessarily believe whoever plays Doom has to be of Romani decent, just as I don't believe whoever is cast as Ben Grimm has to be of Jewish decent. Does it help add authenticity to the character sure, but it's not the end all be all.

But again, you apply this same context to T'Challa, and it would be outrageous, and rightfully so. Morality is not conditional. Either whitewashing is bad in all instances, or it's not in ANY instance.

The only difference between T'Challa, and Doom, is that there is a widespread air of ignorance surrounding Romani people, so it's more socially "acceptable" to erase/whitewash them.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

But again, you apply this same context to T'Challa, and it would be outrageous, and rightfully so. Morality is not conditional. Either whitewashing is bad in all instances, or it's not in ANY instance.

The only difference between T'Challa, and Doom, is that there is a widespread air of ignorance surrounding Romani people, so it's more socially "acceptable" to erase/whitewash them.

I get what you're saying, but we can do this with every race of every character who isnt American. The problem with being so hung up on this is Name 5 romani decendant actors with the chops, look, capabilities of carrying the threat of the MCU. Im not saying someone isn't out there, but i bet the pickings are slim.

The compromise is having an actor embody the character and the heritage the character represents. Just the same way Chadwick Boseman carried representation of being from an African nation.

 

[Marvel united]

I get what you're saying, but we can do this with every race of every character who isnt American. The problem with being so hung up on this is Name 5 romani decendant actors with the chops, look, capabilities of carrying the threat of the MCU. Im not saying someone isn't out there, but i bet the pickings are slim.

That's the job of the casting director; to find the best actors/actresses for a role, based on the *producer and/or director's specifications.

The reason why there are so few *notable Romani actors in Hollywood, is due to lack of opportunity, and historical discrimination in the industry. The problem here is, if Romani roles are consistently being whitewashed and/or erased entirely in film/TV, how is any Romani actor supposed to attain that A-list status? The opportunities (like Doom) keep being taken away from them.

It's a neverending cycle

The compromise is having an actor embody the character and the heritage the character represents. Just the same way Chadwick Boseman carried representation of being from an African nation.

How could a white actor embody the heritage of a racial minority? Boseman wasn't African, but he was still black; the cultural history of the character was still his own.

What people don't understand, is that Romani ppl are one of the most persecuted, oppressed groups of people on this planet. What Black people are to America, Romani people are to Eastern Europe;



It adds pathos, resonance, and power to Doom's character, in the same way Erik's being a Holocaust survivor, adds to his. defines *everything* about Doom's worldview; why he sees the world way he does.

These people do not need to suffer in silence. Feige has that opportunity, to do the right thing, and show the world what's happening to them, and I'm gonna be disappointed in him, if he doesn't.

 

[Frodo]

I'd be fine with a Romani actor , but I don't think they're going to cast one to play Doom.

 

[Da-Scribe]

Always funny how people use the "talent should come first thing" to justify casting white folks in minority roles. Anyway, well said @Marvel united and I do hope Marvel honors Doom's heritage. Romani representation in Hollywood isn't just going to materialize. Only way to do it is to do it.

 

[Airwings]

Fiege has always said they'll cast who they feel the right actor is for the job. I don’t know if I necessarily believe whoever plays Doom has to be of Romani decent, just as I don't believe whoever is cast as Ben Grimm has to be of Jewish decent. Does it help add authenticity to the character sure, but it's not the end all be all.

I don't think its "either Romani actor or no Doom at all". We will get the villain in the end even if somebody white plays him.

 

[Originalavenger]

Da scribe. I agree with you except for 1 example…Johnny storm has always s been a white character until fantastic 4 fiascos!! Marvel has been very diverse characters n their comic books!! Can’t we keep Johnny storm white and elevate some more characters and hat might be down the ladder a rung or 2… change their ethnicity and have better writing and directing?? I had no idea nick fury originally wa white!! M GLAD Samuel l Jackson got the role!! Better writing directing and MaJOR talent has made he role his!!

 

[Gamma Goliath]

That's the job of the casting director; to find the best actors/actresses for a role, based on the *producer and/or director's specifications.

The reason why there are so few *notable Romani actors in Hollywood, is due to lack of opportunity, and historical discrimination in the industry. The problem here is, if Romani roles are consistently being whitewashed and/or erased entirely in film/TV, how is any Romani actor supposed to attain that A-list status? The opportunities (like Doom) keep being taken away from them.

It's a neverending cycle


How could a white actor embody the heritage of a racial minority? Boseman wasn't African, but he was still black; the cultural history of the character was still his own.

What people don't understand, is that Romani ppl are one of the most persecuted, oppressed groups of people on this planet. What Black people are to America, Romani people are to Eastern Europe;



It adds pathos, resonance, and power to Doom's character, in the same way Erik's being a Holocaust survivor, adds to his. defines *everything* about Doom's worldview; why he sees the world way he does.

These people do not need to suffer in silence. Feige has that opportunity, to do the right thing, and show the world what's happening to them, and I'm gonna be disappointed in him, if he doesn't.

Again I don't disagree with what you're saying. And nobody said Doom has to be white, but marvel brass are on record saying they'll cast who they see fit for the job. At the end of the day once that decision is made they'll have to be the ones to live with it because it's only our Job to consume to product and critique it. Maybe they remove the romani aspect from his history, maybe they make him a completely different race.

I get wanting that representation there, but it ain't up to us. And no matter what they do, everyone can't be and most certainly wont be pleased. There's no justification for ANY minority group to be under represented in Hollywood or any professional setting, but the thing is that's not the reality we live in. And until we get to that point all we can do hope Marvel and Disney keep trying to expand that representation. Just my take on it.

 

[Airwings]

I get what you're saying, but we can do this with every race of every character who isnt American. The problem with being so hung up on this is Name 5 romani decendant actors with the chops, look, capabilities of carrying the threat of the MCU. Im not saying someone isn't out there, but i bet the pickings are slim.

You are right. Being too hung up of the ancestry of the actor could be a hindrance. What if there's just a small number of possible names to choose from, and the "best one" still isn't good enough for playing the villain.
What to do then?

 

[Airwings]

That's the job of the casting director; to find the best actors/actresses for a role, based on the *producer and/or director's specifications.

The reason why there are so few *notable Romani actors in Hollywood, is due to lack of opportunity, and historical discrimination in the industry. The problem here is, if Romani roles are consistently being whitewashed and/or erased entirely in film/TV, how is any Romani actor supposed to attain that A-list status? The opportunities (like Doom) keep being taken away from them.

It's a neverending cycle


How could a white actor embody the heritage of a racial minority? Boseman wasn't African, but he was still black; the cultural history of the character was still his own.

What people don't understand, is that Romani ppl are one of the most persecuted, oppressed groups of people on this planet. What Black people are to America, Romani people are to Eastern Europe;



It adds pathos, resonance, and power to Doom's character, in the same way Erik's being a Holocaust survivor, adds to his. defines *everything* about Doom's worldview; why he sees the world way he does.

These people do not need to suffer in silence. Feige has that opportunity, to do the right thing, and show the world what's happening to them, and I'm gonna be disappointed in him, if he doesn't.

You take this very seriously.
But I understand you because I don't like when characters are altered too much from what they originally are. Like the plans to racebend Superman for no other reason than to be politically correct.
Or when they change characters' gender. Eternals went through that process. (not that I care much about Eternals, I didn't know them before)

If Marvel can easily find a Romani actor who's as good as the best ones in Hollywood, then of course they could hire him.
But there's a problem which have been pointed out by others. Romani actors are in minority. The actual good ones are even fewer.

Let's imagine a scenario.
A bunch of Romani actors attend the auditions but neither is good enough to tackle the villain. How much more should the studio be looking for the right one? How much time and energy should be spent on the search?
And what if there already are, at the same time, 2 or 3 caucasian actors with great talent who are in discussion with Marvel about different possible MCU roles?
What's the right thing to do then? Delay the production and use their resources to look everywere for more Romani actors? Or go for one of the talented non-Romani actors so the filming can start as soon as possible?

Should it really be Marvel's responsibility to lead the way for minority actors?
Their main goal is to create well-made CBM films with good plots. Not make political statements.
But on the other hand, because of the fact that MCU has become an industry of its own - it's huge and popular - the studio has a lot of power today and can make a difference in the world

 

[Da-Scribe]

The mental gymnastics required to be both a “purist” and totally fine with a non-Romani actor for Doom is astounding.

 

[Marvel united]

Always funny how people use the "talent should come first thing" to justify casting white folks in minority roles. Anyway, well said @Marvel united and I do hope Marvel honors Doom's heritage. Romani representation in Hollywood isn't just going to materialize. Only way to do it is to do it.

Somebody has to go against the grain, and shine a light on this problem. And unfortunately, It's a grim reminder of the world we live in, where the virtues people preach, that they claim to uphold, are all performative, and mean nothing-- when actually put to the test.

It's all lip service

Again I don't disagree with what you're saying. And nobody said Doom has to be white, but marvel brass are on record saying they'll cast who they see fit for the job. At the end of the day once that decision is made they'll have to be the ones to live with it because it's only our Job to consume to product and critique it. Maybe they remove the romani aspect from his history, maybe they make him a completely different race.

It's a sad that we even have to have this conversation, about erasing an entire group of people's history, in one of the few opportunities to present to their story on the massive platform that is a Marvel movie-- all because the producers are so lazy, that they can't even be bothered to read a Wikipedia article about the character, and the peoples in question.

There's just no excuse for this level of ignorance, it's willful at this point.

I get wanting that representation there, but it ain't up to us. And no matter what they do, everyone can't be and most certainly wont be pleased. There's no justification for ANY minority group to be under represented in Hollywood or any professional setting, but the thing is that's not the reality we live in. And until we get to that point all we can do hope Marvel and Disney keep trying to expand that representation. Just my take on it.

But just because Marvel Studios would do it, knowing that they could get away with it, doesn't make it any less morally corrupt, and it doesn't mean people should accept it.

Everybody should know by now, that the worst thing to be in the face of injustice, is silent.

Let's imagine a scenario.
A bunch of Romani actors attend the auditions but neither is good enough to tackle the villain. How much more should the studio be looking for the right one? How much time and energy should be spent on the search?

For as long as they need to, in order to get the casting right. Feige saw an upwards of 1,000 audition tapes from all around the world, for Spider-Man in Civil War, because him, the studios, both Marvel & Sony, were absolutely committed to getting the perfect actor-- as that's the entire point of the process.

Feige led a similar worldwide search for Kamala Khan; seeing hundreds of Pakistani actresses under 18.

You're telling me that they can't do this for Von Doom, one of the most important, defining figures in the Marvel Universe? That they just *have* to "settle" for whitewashing the character? In any other instance, that would be an outrageous implication.

And what if there already are, at the same time, 2 or 3 caucasian actors with great talent who are in discussion with Marvel about different possible MCU roles?
What's the right thing to do then? Delay the production and use their resources to look everywere for more Romani actors? Or go for one of the talented non-Romani actors so the filming can start as soon as possible?

Yes, because that's what a casting director does. And those actors do not fit the role, do not fit the character, therefore they shouldn't be cast.

Should it really be Marvel's responsibility to lead the way for minority actors?
Their main goal is to create well-made CBM films with good plots. Not make political statements.,

But on the other hand, because of the fact that MCU has become an industry of its own - it's huge and popular - the studio has a lot of power today and can make a difference in the world

When the character in question IS a minority, and whose aforementioned story is rooted in their racial identity, then yes, it is absolutely their responsibility to faithfully and respectfully portray that character on screen, with the *right actor in the role.

And casting actors who aren't white, isn't inherently political.

 

[Stark Bauer]

When you say “white” do you mean Anglo Saxon, Italian, French, Latino, Scandinavian, Slavic, Greco-Macedonian, Germanic, Romanian, Eastern European, Middle Eastern, Mediterranean etc…i am probably missing more groups. But simply lumping all these distinct and beautiful groups as “white” is rather disrespectful imho. Might as well call all Asians yellow or Chinese irrespective of where they are actually from while we are at it.

here is a Romani actor below




Does he look remotely black or Asian? Imho he looks white Eastern European.

 

[Dark Raven]

Marvel cast Scarlett Johansson and Florence Pugh as Natasha Romanoff and Yelena Belova respectively. Neither of those two actresses are Russian, so it indicates how Marvel will probably cast again in future.

Wanda Maximoff should also be Romani but she's played by Elizabeth Olsen.

They'll likely go with an established actor, and since they can attract the big names, they may even go for that for the biggest villain of all.

 

[Marvel united]

When you say “white” do you mean Anglo Saxon, Italian, French, Latino, Scandinavian, Slavic, Greco-Macedonian, Germanic, Romanian, Eastern European, Middle Eastern, Mediterranean etc…i am probably missing more groups. But simply lumping all these distinct and beautiful groups as “white” is rather disrespectful imho. Might as well call all Asians yellow or Chinese irrespective of where they are actually from while we are at it.

Well, you're gonna have to take that up with the European scholars of past who created the concept of "white", as well as the US Gov, because that's how the Census Bureau defines people of European heritage.

here is a Romani actor below

View attachment 59530


Does he look remotely black or Asian? Imho he looks white Eastern European.

That's because the actor in question (Charlie Clapman), is mixed race e.g. Romani & white/English

Roma, like all races, vary in skin color, but the vast majority of them are visibly, and obviously non-white





And that's because modern Roma are descended from the Punjabi region, in northern India. They literally are non-white.

And getting back to Doom, it is the defining element of his character, because it shapes everything about who he is, and *why he believes the things he does about the world:







Doom is a champion of oppressed people



Without it, what he is? When you take that away from him, you get Tim Story's Doom; An egotistical white man raving on and on, about world domination, with none of the meaning that gives Doom's drive, power.

It's like taking away Magneto's jewishness, or Erik Killmonger's blackness. Doom's entire origin has always been rooted in racial commentary; the discussions of Eurocentric-colonialism, and historical discrimination against Roma populations in Europe.

It would be a damn shame for Marvel Studios to engage in that erasure, once again.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Let’s not forget Doom is a villain who deals in the mystic arts.

The general argument is that minorities need superheroes they can look up to.

Isn’t it as likely Marvel will avoid making him Romani in the interest of political correctness and not perpetuating stereotypes as it is they will go out of their way to make him Romani?

 

[Da-Scribe]

Let’s not forget Doom is a villain who deals in the mystic arts.

The general argument is that minorities need superheroes they can look up to.

Isn’t it as likely Marvel will avoid making him Romani in the interest of political correctness and not perpetuating stereotypes as it is they will go out of their way to make him Romani?

I think this view pretty much erases the roles that oppression and colonialism play in Doom's background. And I don't think that's politically correct or helpful.

As a minority, it's not merely about having characters I can look up to. It's also about having characters I can relate to. I can look up to T'Challa, but I can actually relate to Killmonger. There are a lot of nuances to growing up in a racialized community and it's important to see that spectrum of experiences more fully represented in media.