Fast and Furious: The Hearings...

[SV Fan]

I'm not going to comment on the actual FAF policy which was an awful, stupid idea with tragic consequences.

I'll just throw out that given Obama has invoked executive privilege, the holding Holder in contempt feels like a political sideshow kangaroo court mildly reminiscent of the 1990s and Clinton witch hunts.

DC politics....sigh.

That's all I'll add to this conversation.

Not sure how the Republicans feel this is a winning issue. It sort of falls flat on it's face when you realize Bush had similar type of operations in 2006/7 yet nobody seems to care about that.

To me it just seems like they are trying to pander to the crowd that believes Obama is out to get your guns, even though he has done absolutely nothing so far about guns(well other then pass a law to make it legal to carry guns in state parks) but he has "some double secret agenda to ban guns once he gets in office in 2012" and this is a setup

I think this video sums it up



It's basically the VP of the NRA saying that even though Obama hasn't done anything so far to get your guns, he is setting us up to get your guns.

Here is a funny video I saw on Maddow today that sums up the people who hate Holder

 

[Kelly]

Nope, incorrect SV, those two programs are very different....."Wide Receiver" was considered "controlled delivery" meaning the tracing of the guns was physically done by the agents, as in they physically followed the guns. "Controlled Delivery" is a very common law enforcement tactic.... it is used in drug cases, pornography as well as weapons....Basically, the agents know the bad guys have negotiated a deal to acquire some product that is either illegal itself (heroin, child porn) or illegal for them to have/use (guns, corporate secrets). The agents allow the transfer to happen under circumstances where they are in control, for example, they are on the scene conducting surveillance of the transfer, and sometimes even participating undercover in the transfer. As soon as the transfer takes place, they descend on the suspects, make arrests, and seize the product in question.... which makes for excellent evidence of guilt. Whereas "Fast and Furious" which was considered "uncontrolled delivery" where 1,000s of weapons were put on the market and all that was done was a taking down of the serial numbers and other markings, and then the weapons were lost in the shuffle, they were not physically traced...which meant the only way we knew where the guns were at that point was when the Mexican police were able to seize the weapons and trace them back to those numbers.

Also, in the case of "Wide Receiver" it was being done in partnership with the Mexican Government, NOT SO in the case of "Fast and Furious".

So these two programs are very different and any comparison is laughable.

From Holder's own MOUTH....

http://youtu.be/bESZcRMCBKk

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Nope, incorrect SV, those two programs are very different....."Wide Receiver" was considered "controlled delivery" meaning the tracing of the guns was physically done by the agents, as in they physically followed the guns. "Controlled Delivery" is a very common law enforcement tactic.... it is used in drug cases, pornography as well as weapons....Basically, the agents know the bad guys have negotiated a deal to acquire some product that is either illegal itself (heroin, child porn) or illegal for them to have/use (guns, corporate secrets). The agents allow the transfer to happen under circumstances where they are in control, for example, they are on the scene conducting surveillance of the transfer, and sometimes even participating undercover in the transfer. As soon as the transfer takes place, they descend on the suspects, make arrests, and seize the product in question.... which makes for excellent evidence of guilt. Whereas "Fast and Furious" which was considered "uncontrolled delivery" where 1,000s of weapons were put on the market and all that was done was a taking down of the serial numbers and other markings, and then the weapons were lost in the shuffle, they were not physically traced...which meant the only way we knew where the guns were at that point was when the Mexican police were able to seize the weapons and trace them back to those numbers.

Also, in the case of "Wide Receiver" it was being done in partnership with the Mexican Government, NOT SO in the case of "Fast and Furious".

So these two programs are very different and any comparison is laughable.

From Holder's own MOUTH....

http://youtu.be/bESZcRMCBKk

The differences you mentioned are why the F&F case is so much more important and needing of sunlight being shown on it. Holder looked like he's barely competent to be AG in answering questions about "Wide Receiver" and "Fast and Furious."

 

[Superman]

I'm not going to comment on the actual FAF policy which was an awful, stupid idea with tragic consequences.

I'll just throw out that given Obama has invoked executive privilege, the holding Holder in contempt feels like a political sideshow kangaroo court mildly reminiscent of the 1990s and Clinton witch hunts.

DC politics....sigh.

That's all I'll add to this conversation.

I couldn't agree more. Of all the dumb crap Obama's administration has done this tops them all.

SV Fan is right though, It's very hypocritical of the Right to ***** about this when their guy did the same kind of thing and they was A-OK with it.

Not surprising but hypocritical.

 

[Kelly]

Exactly what did they do the same????? Are you speaking of "Wide Receiver"???? because if you are, you are comparing apples and oranges....totally and completely.

I think the whole contempt thing is just stupid....and will gain nothing from it....but to call "Wide Receiver" the same as "Fast and Furious" is to show an ignorance of what these two actions consisted of....

 

[hippie_hunter]

I'm not going to comment on the actual FAF policy which was an awful, stupid idea with tragic consequences.

I'll just throw out that given Obama has invoked executive privilege, the holding Holder in contempt feels like a political sideshow kangaroo court mildly reminiscent of the 1990s and Clinton witch hunts.

DC politics....sigh.

That's all I'll add to this conversation.

I feel that unlike Clinton, Holder actually deserves this one. There really is no reason for him to withold documents on this investigation and to be lying to Congress.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I feel that unlike Clinton, Holder actually deserves this one. There really is no reason for him to withold documents on this investigation and to be lying to Congress.

Them stonewalling makes Holder and Co. look so guilty that it only makes the Republicans want to push even harder.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Exactly, the Republican leadership was actually quite wary of doing this to Holder, but Holder's actions made this inevitable.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Exactly, the Republican leadership was actually quite wary of doing this to Holder, but Holder's actions made this inevitable.

The Republicans now have blood in the water and will attack Holder to no end. Holder is distrusted and reviled in many Republican-leaning states and districts so many Congressional members don't worry about heavy backlash for pursuing this.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I couldn't agree more. Of all the dumb crap Obama's administration has done this tops them all.

SV Fan is right though, It's very hypocritical of the Right to ***** about this when their guy did the same kind of thing and they was A-OK with it.

Not surprising but hypocritical.

Of course it's hypocritical. It's politics. Politics pretty much wades through hypocrisy.

 

[Kelly]

The problem with this now is....it will probably take close to 5 years to get any answers, or any chance of answers.

 

[Victarion]

I've got a dumb question: If Holder has nothing to fear, why not just give the Republicans the papers and documents regarding the Fast and Furious Op?

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I've got a dumb question: If Holder has nothing to fear, why not just give the Republicans the papers and documents regarding the Fast and Furious Op?

That's the big question that just about everyone is asking. By them refusing to hand over documents means either they are just being difficult to stick it to Republicans or there really is something to hide that could make them look bad.

 

[DACrowe]

I feel that unlike Clinton, Holder actually deserves this one. There really is no reason for him to withold documents on this investigation and to be lying to Congress.

I feel that whatever happened with FAF is now buried as Issa, Cantor, etc. have turned it into a political circus because they are desperate to have a scandal to run against Obama. So, instead of talking about this policy we're talking about how cynical it was to charge Holder with contempt (especially now that he is legally forbidden from handing them over as Obama has covered it with his first executive privilege). On Fox News, I switched by for the first time in weeks and in that bubble this is "worse than Watergate."

It's no longer about FAF and now is a political sideshow. And holding Holder in contempt is just a cynical extrapolation of this, in my opinion.

 

[Webfoot Hero]

I feel that whatever happened with FAF is now buried as Issa, Cantor, etc. have turned it into a political circus because they are desperate to have a scandal to run against Obama. So, instead of talking about this policy we're talking about how cynical it was to charge Holder with contempt (especially now that he is legally forbidden from handing them over as Obama has covered it with his first executive privilege). On Fox News, I switched by for the first time in weeks and in that bubble this is "worse than Watergate."

It's no longer about FAF and now is a political sideshow. And holding Holder in contempt is just a cynical extrapolation of this, in my opinion.

The thing with executive privelege is that it can be overturned since it's not an absolute power. If they have nothing to hide in their handling of F&F, then Holder shouldn't have had to go running to Obama asking for the his EP to suppress the release of the documents. For claiming to run the most transparent administration, they sure are being secretive about a program that supposedly wasn't all that big.

 

[Kelly]

I feel that whatever happened with FAF is now buried as Issa, Cantor, etc. have turned it into a political circus because they are desperate to have a scandal to run against Obama. So, instead of talking about this policy we're talking about how cynical it was to charge Holder with contempt (especially now that he is legally forbidden from handing them over as Obama has covered it with his first executive privilege). On Fox News, I switched by for the first time in weeks and in that bubble this is "worse than Watergate."

It's no longer about FAF and now is a political sideshow. And holding Holder in contempt is just a cynical extrapolation of this, in my opinion.

I don't think the committee had any idea that Obama would use EP on this, its one of those things where you put all your cards out on the table, and I'll be damned if the other guy doesn't call your bluff.

I think something is being covered up, what is it? We now may never know...or at least won't know for the next 5 years....

I guess the Obama administration calculated that they could withstand the scrutiny of what this looks like much easier than they could withstand the possible campaign killing reality of it.....who knows. It's his call to make, however, he made it.....and that is all.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Jon Stewart rips into Obama's use of executive privilige
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/06/22/jon_stewart_rips_use_of_executive_privilege.html

 

[Handsome Rob]

Jon Stewart rips into Obama's use of executive privilige
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/06/22/jon_stewart_rips_use_of_executive_privilege.html

That was awesome.

The Democrats are now in a position of having to defend an executive action that they thoroughly denounced during the Bush Administration not five years prior.

Truth.

As to the "worse than Watergate" comments, I don't know why they say that. It may have to do with the body counts . . .

Watergate: None, that I'm aware of.

F&F: One dead border agent and at least a couple hundred Mexican citizens.

 

[hippie_hunter]

The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette says it best about the use of executive privilige here:

"Even if the investigation is deeply partisan, that doesn't mean executive privilege is warranted except in the rarest of cases. Mr. Obama has lost the high ground."

 

[SteveRogers]

This isn't about a semen stained dress. It's about the murder of a Border Patrolman.

 

[Marx]

UPDATE: HOUSE TO VOTE ON CONTEMPT CHARGES THIS THURSDAY?
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...ney-general-holder-in-contempt-possible-soon/

 

[Matt]

UPDATE: HOUSE TO VOTE ON CONTEMPT CHARGES THIS THURSDAY?
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...ney-general-holder-in-contempt-possible-soon/

****, Obamacare overturned and the U.S. Attorney General held in contempt on possibly the same day? Thursday is shaping up to be a VERY bad day for the President....probably the worst that he's ever had in the Oval Office.

 

[Superman]

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/

It's a long read but a good one. It shows that this isn't the big cover up scandal that the Republicans have tried to make it out to be.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Even if it isn't as big of a scandal that the GOP is making it out to be, firearms from the ATF ended up in the hands of Mexican drug gangs that ended up killing a Border Patrol agent and the Justice Department is not only not fully co-operating but they've also lied in some instances to Congress. It doesn't matter if the GOP is using their typical hyperbole to fuel their rhetoric about Operation Fast and Furious, it doesn't change the fact that this is still a massive **** up and Holder along with others need to be held responsible.

I certailnly agreee that the GOP is being extremely partisan on this, but that still doesn't excuse Obama on the use of his executive privilige here. It still doesn't excuse Holder for his flat out incompetence on this issue.

 

[Kelly]

Firearms put into the public, and not followed is ridiculously stupid, and at best....someone should be fired. I don't know if its Holder or not, but his ignorance of all of this is scary as hell...