Feige: "more than half of [heroes] will be women."

[TheVileOne]

I don't see why anyone has to be pandered to at all. Just make movies with all the characters and make them good. Why does every decision have to be a cultural or identity battle?

Why can't we just have both? It's not like we all hate Wonder Woman or hate Captain America. I don't get why there has to be this insane division between US vs. THEM or woke vs. not woke or SJW vs. anti-SJW.

Women enjoy superhero movies too, and women also want to see strong female heroes. Is that really such a bad thing? But I'm also a guy, and I want to see those characters too. It's not exactly going to offend my sensibilities.

To play devil's advocate, I think what people don't like is being preached to. And sometimes, Hollywood movies are not subtle about their social messages and preaching that message, so they can sometimes feel like they are hitting you over the head with it. And when people talk about "privilege" or "mansplaining," I'm not saying those points are never valid, but when those terms get thrown around it makes the other party feel like they are at fault and to blame. And people don't like getting a finger pointed at them.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Which again, how do you know people are being pandered to and they just are not making quality characters and quality movies like they have been for 20 movies.

 

[Flash525]

I don't know about pandered... but both Wonder Woman and Black Panther were heavily implied (if not outright stated to be) masterpieces; that wasn't because of the excellent script and special effects, it instead was because of the leads.

Wonder Woman was the first proper female-centric superhero film we've had in the last two generations. Black Panther was the first proper black superhero film we've had in the same time. These films were highlighted as being spectacular because of the titular characters.

Don't get me wrong, the films were both good, but they weren't specifically significantly better than anything that had come before them, and yet they're portrayed to be so much more than they actually are - and that's because they're breaking the mould.

This isn't a bad thing either, though it is something that should be acknowledged maybe.

 

[Flint Marko]

Re: "Pandering".....

I'm not going to waste my time counting up how many superhero movies we've gotten total vs how many of them have starred anything other than a white male. Whatever the ratio is I'm sure it's going to be like 30:1 or something insane like that, which highlights the point here: superhero movies are always led by straight white males and it's well past time to do something different. That's not "pandering", that's common sense.

 

[Spider-Fan]

My issue with this whole thread is people are acting like they cannot make quality stories and characters (which they have been for 20 films at this point) with women. I'm sorry, but what is the difference? Why can't we keep getting amazing stories and characters with a focus on adding female characters? Why are these ideas mutually exclusive? No one is providing any type of answer and are just screaming "it's pandering" without any basis other than the fact that they said we're getting more female characters. It's just speculative non-sense based on personal bias. Why can't it be done with women? What's the difference?

 

[DACrowe]

I don't know about pandered... but both Wonder Woman and Black Panther were heavily implied (if not outright stated to be) masterpieces; that wasn't because of the excellent script and special effects, it instead was because of the leads.

Wonder Woman was the first proper female-centric superhero film we've had in the last two generations. Black Panther was the first proper black superhero film we've had in the same time. These films were highlighted as being spectacular because of the titular characters.

Don't get me wrong, the films were both good, but they weren't specifically significantly better than anything that had come before them, and yet they're portrayed to be so much more than they actually are - and that's because they're breaking the mould.

This isn't a bad thing either, though it is something that should be acknowledged maybe.

I think both have flaws that their fans downplayed (and that some detractors, at least in the case of Wonder Woman, overstated, IMO). Neither are masterpieces, and received an extra helping of hype... because they were the first of their kind, at least as you say in the "proper" sense. They also, IMO, are among the best of their genre, and certainly the best pair of superhero origin movies in this decade.

Kevin Feige sees that and goes, "Oh the audiences want more of that" and also "Oh, I guess we have really underserved the audience in that regard. Let's change course."

That's not pandering. That is recognizing a blindspot and making a sound business decision to boot.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Except he's actually put women and non-white directors behind the camera, while she's just given lip service.

this

 

[Abudefduf]

Kevin Feige: In a few years, my movie universe will be full of attractive actresses playing kickass characters.
Alpha males of the internet: BLASPHEMY. HOW DARE YOU.

Yes, we've officially reached the point where thousands of straight males are actively arguing against their own best interests. If that's not brainwashing then I don't know what it is.

 

[Ozbridge]

Kevin Feige: In a few years, my movie universe will be full of attractive actresses playing kickass characters.
Alpha males of the internet: BLASPHEMY. HOW DARE YOU.

As long as the attractive actresses just play supporting characters with lots of male gaze shots it's alright.

 

[DrCosmic]

One thing I think is being overlooked by Feige's comments, at least elsewhere, is that majority female doesn't mean majority female led. Black Panther is a great example. Nakia + Okoye + Shuri > T'Challa in BP, in terms of character arcs, moments of spectacle and more. BP is majority female in a lot of ways, but none of the majority females are set up to be leads.

So let's not give Feige credit for changing the face of Hollywood or doing something that's never been done.

That's not pandering. That is recognizing a blindspot and making a sound business decision to boot.

That's literally what pandering is though. The challenge with accusations of pandering is that it's this word with this negative connotation but it doesn't acknowledge that the use of White male leads so consistently through the history of cinema is also pandering with all the downsides of any other pandering, plus being repetitive/monotonous. By saying that this is pandering, but the status quo is not, one essentially imagines that the use of White males is deserved, right, and proper, which is supremacy by definition. And even acknowledgement of it and saying pandering should stop sounds like "Okay, I've been pandered to, and I don't like pandering, so all the pandering should stop!"

 

[MasterCat]

My issue with this whole thread is people are acting like they cannot make quality stories and characters (which they have been for 20 films at this point) with women. I'm sorry, but what is the difference? Why can't we keep getting amazing stories and characters with a focus on adding female characters? Why are these ideas mutually exclusive?

Well, what amazing stories and characters do you think he has planned that will lead to women outnumbering men? And if that's his no-FOX plan, do you think he'll shrug it off as "Oh well, turns out men will outnumber women since we have the Fantastic 4", or is he ideologically committed and thus will gender-swap either the Human Torch or Thing OR add two non-great female characters to meet a quota?

 

[Spider-Fan]

Well, what amazing stories and characters do you think he has planned that will lead to women outnumbering men? And if that's his no-FOX plan, do you think he'll shrug it off as "Oh well, turns out men will outnumber women since we have the Fantastic 4", or is he ideologically committed and thus will gender-swap either the Human Torch or Thing OR add two non-great female characters to meet a quota?

What amazing stories did they use to make the movies they already made? Why is this not possible to do for female characters as well? Marvel mined their B/C list characters to build the MCU we know today, they can do the same for their women. Does having boobs somehow mean you can't tell good stories? Once again, why is this different? Marvel is not going to make a mega event film that is going to explain why we have more women now, they will just make more movies with women. So again I ask, why does our new characters having boobs mean we will get inferior stories?

 

[DrCosmic]

Well, what amazing stories and characters do you think he has planned that will lead to women outnumbering men? And if that's his no-FOX plan, do you think he'll shrug it off as "Oh well, turns out men will outnumber women since we have the Fantastic 4", or is he ideologically committed and thus will gender-swap either the Human Torch or Thing OR add two non-great female characters to meet a quota?

Fantastic Four is a great example of a property that is so immersed in pandering to 60s politics, that it doesn't work when you remove that pandering, which is part of why none of the updates work.

This is one property of many that Marvel has, and the only one so deeply tied to 60s pandering. Obviously X-Men works as majority female, and can almost single handedly flip the ratio. This is to say nothing of simply *using* the female heroes of the MCU. Not only that, but if they start going to their docket of heroes they haven't used yet that don't overlap with heroes they have used, their C-list female heroes are the way to go, for Avengers, for Guardians of the Galaxy, for solo projects and for new supporting cast for Dr. Strange, Ant-Man, and Spider-Man, as we saw in play with Black Panther.

It's not a real problem, or some out of the box solution. He's just cashing in some goodwill for those who are tired of a very specific pandering and ideological commitment (i.e. "White Male = normal") all their lives.

 

[MasterCat]

What amazing stories did they use to make the movies they already made? Why is this not possible to do for female characters as well? Marvel mined their B/C list characters to build the MCU we know today, they can do the same for their women. Does having boobs somehow mean you can't tell good stories? Once again, why is this different?

You want me to fully list the "amazing stories" they've already used? I mean, the quickest list off the top of my head is Captain America: Captain America #1, a random Howling Commandos story, a loose adaptation of the first Kirby/Lee "Red Skull gets the Cosmic Cube" story, Ed Brubaker's 2006 Winter Soldier story, and a loose retelling of the 2006 Civil War event. That one's easiest, because it sticks out as implying they believe Captain America had no great stories between 1966 and 2006 to adapt.
I'm not denying that it's possible to do for female characters! I just want to hear suggestions by name rather than a handwave "everything Marvel does is amazing, so unnamed female character will be an amazing story." Personally, I think it would be hilariously amazing if Marvel Studios released a low-budget comedy about high school seniors called Patsy Walker to cinemas and later had her join a superhero team as Hellcat.

 

[Ozbridge]

I just want to hear suggestions by name rather than a handwave "everything Marvel does is amazing, so unnamed female character will be an amazing story."

You probably didn't mean it but I don't think people here are obligated to name "amazing" stories featuring female characters from the comic books in order to "prove" that movies staring these female characters have good potential to be amazing.

Marvel Studios have proved themselves, especially in recent years, so it's logical to assume that any movies they produce will turn out to be competent.

 

[Spider-Fan]

You want me to fully list the "amazing stories" they've already used? I mean, the quickest list off the top of my head is Captain America: Captain America #1, a random Howling Commandos story, a loose adaptation of the first Kirby/Lee "Red Skull gets the Cosmic Cube" story, Ed Brubaker's 2006 Winter Soldier story, and a loose retelling of the 2006 Civil War event. That one's easiest, because it sticks out as implying they believe Captain America had no great stories between 1966 and 2006 to adapt.
I'm not denying that it's possible to do for female characters! I just want to hear suggestions by name rather than a handwave "everything Marvel does is amazing, so unnamed female character will be an amazing story." Personally, I think it would be hilariously amazing if Marvel Studios released a low-budget comedy about high school seniors called Patsy Walker to cinemas and later had her join a superhero team as Hellcat.

I'm not going to breakdown every female hero and provide a template for them. Unless Marvel wants to pay me to do that. Then I totally will. But there is a wealth of stories they can use. The only off the top of my head example I'll provide is She-Hulk during her lawyer tenure is begging to be made (ignoring the obvious hurdles with Universal, but that's one example). We also have Black Widow's backstory to expand on, etc. Stories are THERE. Or they can come up with new ones. The MCU modifies stories to where they basically are original anyway. I am perfectly happy seeing the women get a chance to have a CBM revolution. If the movies are good, I will watch them. I don't care what the target demographic is or what race/gender the heroes are: good movies are good movies. If they want to give me more badass women like Wasp, Widow, or Gamora have been, then SIGN ME UP!

 

[Set]

Because when you try to appeal to them you end up making bad movies such as *checks notes* The Force Awakens, Wonder Woman, Mad Max: Fury Road, Black Panther or Thor: Ragnarok.

Is this meant ironically?

Cause all of those movies succeeded at the box office, and four out of five of them were kind of amazing, for this white dude.

 

[MasterCat]

Oh, another I think has big potential is Moondragon. Not that she has any amazing stories I can recall issue # for, but she's Drax's daughter and got psychic powers from intense study of an alien religion. So she's A) basically a Jedi and B) someone Dave "Drax" Bautista has complained about not having around.
The potential downsides are that her original costume looked like this:

... so she'd most likely get a very dull costume makeover like Gamora's colorless motorcycle leathers, and is bisexual, which could be Flanderized into SJW lesbian.

 

[Set]

Obviously X-Men works as majority female, and can almost single handedly flip the ratio.

One fun 'problem' to have is that there are so many great women in the X-'Men,' between Jean, Ororo, Jean-Marie, Betsy, Emma, Alison, Kitty, Lorna, etc. It's kind of an embarrassment of riches over there. Not only are there a lot of them, they are, IMO, really strongly written and characterized. Same with the New Mutants, which was the first team to have a majority female starting lineup (Karma, Mirage, Wolfesbane, Sunspot and Cannonball), and quickly added some more female powerhouses with Ilyanna and Amara.

Outside of the X-folk, I really wanted for there to be more 'Daughters of Thanos' out there, and for Drax's thought-to-be-dead daughter to be one of them, introducing Moondragon, empowered by the Mind Stone (which Thanos had, back in the day) with psychic abilities, taking the place of these Black Order flunkies that got recently(ish) introduced in the comics, and who meant nothing to me. Seeing Moondragon taking the place of Ebony Maw, flinging people around telekinetically, and / or telepathically attacking people, and perhaps holding back when she realizes that her (thought to be dead, to her) father was on the other side (and bringing the trifecta of 'daughters' of Thanos turning on him, along with Gamora and Nebula!), and some other powerful and deadly 'daughters of Thanos' going up against the Avengers, would have been fun.

 

[MasterCat]

One fun 'problem' to have is that there are so many great women in the X-'Men,' between Jean, Ororo, Jean-Marie, Betsy, Emma, Alison, Kitty, Lorna, etc. It's kind of an embarrassment of riches over there. Not only are there a lot of them, they are, IMO, really strongly written and characterized. Same with the New Mutants, which was the first team to have a majority female starting lineup (Karma, Mirage, Wolfesbane, Sunspot and Cannonball), and quickly added some more female powerhouses with Ilyanna and Amara.

The X-Men franchise is definitely where Marvel keeps its interesting female characters. However, making the X-Men overwhelmingly female would be illogical pandering: there's no reason X-gene births wouldn't be 50-50.

 

[Spider-Fan]

The superhero population hasn't worked off 50/50

 

[MasterCat]

The superhero population hasn't worked off 50/50

So? For people born with powers that turn on at puberty, it should, unless the gene is sex-linked. And that would make a hash of those interesting male X-Men and mutant antagonists.

 

[Spider-Fan]

So? For people born with powers that turn on at puberty, it should, unless the gene is sex-linked. And that would make a hash of those interesting male X-Men and mutant antagonists.

If we're playing law of averages, then about 50% of people with powers that are women should also exist. But that is not the reality of the MCU at this point. So playing averages is a convenient argument when the current averages don't operate on 50/50.

 

[MasterCat]

(facepalm)
I don't think it's mendaciously sexist to think about genetics.
Implying that preferring things to be rational is a "convenient argument" for bias is starting to smell of postmodernism. Let's not go there.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I'm sorry, but that is how I see the argument. Complaining if they do a mainly female X-Men because %'s should work that way, when the world population is almost 50/50 men vs women, so if %'s were to be followed, it should apply not just to mutants, but enhanced as well. Many of the most iconic female characters are mutants, so it is the most sensible place to mine. You can't have it both ways.