Fant4stic "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

[DarKush]

^
Okay I get you.

My issue with the 'happens to be' kind of language is that it could lead to a very noble, yet I would feel misguided, attempt to wipe out any cultural/racial differences. Where you can plop a black, brown, yellow, or red person into any role or situation without anyone batting an eye-even in places or times when they should.

That rankles me some because it doesn't take into account the history and it misses-perhaps on purpose-an opportunity not just to entertain but to inform the audience, or if anything else to generate conversation.

Further, I'm not cool with the idea of blanched black people. I like some retaining of history, culture, etc. Because I don't believe you have cultureless characters. They have to come from some place, and if we go for the 'colorblind' characters the default culture and perspective will likely be white, so they'll just be white characters in black skin. To me that defeats the goal of diversity and inclusion which, IMO, should embrace and respect not just different skin colors but a variety of experiences, ideas, and cultures, etc.

 

[bubbadoom]

As a white kid in the '60's I had no issue with the Black Panther - he was just another in a long line of cool Kirby creations! Of course I noticed he was a black african, but that was not what defined his character - he was a cool, original and interesting character who happened to be an african ruler. It seems like every black character after that shoved their race in your face, giving one the impression that the chief reason they were created was because they were black and not because they were a good idea.


I want my movie characters to be as close to their comic counterparts as possible.

As a character, there is no reason for War Machine to be black, but I am glad that he is and would have been just as opposed to a race change in him [or the Falcon] as I am with the Torch. There is no logical reason for even considering a black actor for this other than "diversity" - which is not a good enough reason.

Obama is half white, so I guess it will be okay for a white actor to play him in a movie - right!

 

[Kelly]

and mbj couldn't of just give a great screen test to sway their opinions??

why does it have to be stunt casting or change for the sake of change and not just a good actor being offered a role

In order to answer this question I would need to know who else gave them a screen test, who else was on the short list, etc....there is no way to answer that question until all of the variables are known, and honestly I'm not sure that those answers will come, which means this will quite possibly be the major talk of this movie, and IMO, not what should be talked about...but unfortunately, just as the Alba choice took a lot of the good word of mouth that the first movies might have had on message boards like these, a choice, when others would have been better choices ended up taking up a good bit, if not the majority of the conversations. IMO, that is not exactly a good thing....but again, if I see that the other choices were just meh, then maybe I will change my mind.

 

[Dark Raven]

As a white kid in the '60's I had no issue with the Black Panther - he was just another in a long line of cool Kirby creations! Of course I noticed he was a black african, but that was not what defined his character - he was a cool, original and interesting character who happened to be an african ruler. It seems like every black character after that shoved their race in your face, giving one the impression that the chief reason they were created was because they were black and not because they were a good idea.


I want my movie characters to be as close to their comic counterparts as possible.

As a character, there is no reason for War Machine to be black, but I am glad that he is and would have been just as opposed to a race change in him [or the Falcon] as I am with the Torch. There is no logical reason for even considering a black actor for this other than "diversity" - which is not a good enough reason.

Obama is half white, so I guess it will be okay for a white actor to play him in a movie - right!

That's part of what I was saying before about certain black characters being incidentally black. Instead of making a big deal about their race, if it were something which people didn't have to keep being reminded of, they could just get on with having great adventures. Sometimes you want to just come into a comic (or TV show, movie etc) without any of that baggage but just to relax and escape from reality. With TV shows where an issue is continually pressed, you have to be in the right frame of mind to want to watch it, whereas something which is relatively baggage free allows you to watch it more easily.

War Machine is a good example of a character who is incidentally black. He's an interesting character but doesn't keep harping on about his background, ethnicity or any injustice he might've felt etc. Therefore you can concentrate on him having his adventures and being a superhero. He was even that way when he was Iron Man for a while, and in fact many people actually preferred his version over Tony Stark's, because suddenly Iron Man was more laid back and wise cracking, and was more of an everyman. Of course, the movie version has changed that because of RDJ's personality (they've made Rhodey more of the straight man to RDJ's wise cracker).

 

[Spuzz]

There is nothing racist about being upset regarding this possible casting. It is as normal as being disappointed in a white guy being cast as a famous black character.

 

[Sawyer]

I love Jordan and don't want him as Johnny for one reason: I've wanted him as Cloak for a few years now.

 

[bubbadoom]

Here's the deal, character likes Black Panther or Luke Cage HAVE to be black. They are, for better or worse, defined by their race. There story would cease to make sense if they are white.

Johnny Storm, along with many other superheros, is not defined by race. He is a young handsome, head strong kid. He can be white, black, orange or purple. His race, besides the coloring in a comic book, is not important. Michael B. Jordan is a fantastic young actor, who could pull of Johnny Storm in a heart beat. Cast him now.

How is Luke Cage defined by his race? Would his story not work had he been Latino, Asian, or even white for that matter. Likewise with the Panther, he could have been a South American Indian and had a similar back story - even kept the same cat motif.

Why does Falcon or War Machine have to be black? No, they don't - but they are in the comics so they should be in the films.

Same goes for Johnny.

 

[bubbadoom]

The thing that's the funniest is that the person who made this casting decision, director Josh Trank, is white.

Not only that, he's an FF fan.

Is he - really...?

 

[bubbadoom]

That's a great little analysis Shockdingo. And I think I agree with you. The studios (Marvel/Disney in particular) have been doing a great job with diversifying the cast in my opinion. When Fury, Heimdall, Algrim, Thanos, Kingpin and Electro couldve been casted as white and they weren't? That's definitely something. 1960s comics wouldve seen this entire cast of characters whitewashed and to be honest? That wouldve been boring as sh**. Not to mention these are great actors we are referring to. Having Jaime Foxx as the lead villain in Spidey is a fantastic win.

My problem can be seen for example with Heimdall, its almost as if they avoided the "brother/sister" relationship with Sif intentionally. Why? I'd imagine it's pretty important to some fans (if it is to me). And now its a similar situation with the F4. I like the idea that they don't cast based on race. That's great. But not casting based on looks is a little odd. And changing origins and relationships based on casting is borderline bad. All I'm saying is they should be careful with this stuff.

Thanos never was "white" - he's purple. When he gets a bigger role in the next Marvel movie and is replaced with a more seasoned actor, does he still have to be black, like in THE AVENGERS, or can they simply look for the most talented actor?

 

[bubbadoom]

Superman is the most powerful fictional character, one who you said could not be black in real life. And yet the most powerful man in the real world is Barack Obama, a black man. So don't make it sound like the world couldn't accept a black Superman in real life.

Half black, half white actually ....

 

[FVD]

I don't mind supporting characters receiving a change in ethnicity or even villains to a certain extent. I accepted Fishburne as Perry White from the get go and Jamie Foxx as Electro I don't mind at all. Michael Clarke Duncan as Kingpin I too didn't mind but I do hope that next time he'll be true to the pages, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter. As long as he's embodied to the last tee it'll be okay really.

Which comes to Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm - PLEASE NO!!! I for the life of me don't want the siblings to be adopted or of different cultures. Heck I'd be all for Jordan being in this movie in any other role but not Johnny!

 

[Human Torch]

Maybe Trank wants to go all out "The Wiz" on FF and have an all black cast.t:

 

[Raiden]

As I said in another thread, I don't think casting Jordan as Johnny Storm is a good idea. Yes, he may be talented and charisma and all that, and I have no problem casting a minority in a supporting roles (MCD as Kingpin, Jaime Foxx as Electro, Fishbourne as Perry White, etc). But Johnny is a major character and I do not want him to look vastly different than who he was when he first appeared in the FF comic book back in the 60's. I'm positive that they can find another talented actor whose looks closely resembled Johnny Storm in Hollywood, like they did when they had cast Chris Evans for the previous movies.

 

[Spider‑Man]

At least get the age right this time.

 

[metaphysician]

Me, I have no issue with them casting a black actor as Johnny. . . but I do think they should cast for the same ethnicity of both Storm siblings. Having the whole Storm family be black makes no difference to the plot; having one of the siblings be adopted *does* make a difference to the family dynamic, and they don't really need the added complication.

That said, this is not an infinite objection. If they have two actors who perform really well as Johnny and Sue, and they happen to be different races? Then go with it, eat the extra script difficulty in exchange for the better acting.

 

[Kelly]

I could actually write an entire story line for them that would have Alicia and Johnny as siblings separated when they were young...one going to the puppet master and the other going to the Storms. And ya know what, I wouldn't have a problem with that storyline in the least, I am not a purist to the story, BUT if there is another actor that is just as good or better and fits the story line already in place? Then why the hell would you not cast that person. So I will wait until we see the others on the list, and find out if this is true or just a rumor not going to play out. Once we have all of those variables, if there are others on that list that would have gone with my later scenario and were not cast? Then I will be the first to say this was done as a stunt, or maybe the second to say it. IF the other choices they have are not as good as this young man in the rumor, then I will be the first to say....bring on the new Johnny Storm story line and lets get the show on the road. So I will wait.... : )

 

[Spider‑Man]

Half black, half white actually ....

This has always intrigued me. When Obama ran and was eventually elected I never heard anyone praising the election of our first half-black president. In fact I recall resentment expressed about any mention of that fact as it was seen as trying to diminish a great accomplishment by the black community as a whole. In that context he is 'black' as any other African American. But somehow when it seems that a distinction needs to be made to make a point, Obama suddenly becomes 'half white', not truly black. I don't really care how everyone chooses to view him. I just wish we could get some consistency instead of identifying him in whatever way best supports a particular viewpoint in the debate of the moment.

 

[Kelly]

This has always intrigued me. When Obama ran and was eventually elected I never heard anyone praising the election of our first half-black president. In fact I recall resentment expressed about any mention of that fact as it was seen as trying to diminish a great accomplishment by the black community as a whole. In that context he is 'black' as any other African American. But somehow when it seems that a distinction needs to be made to make a point, Obama suddenly becomes 'half white', not truly black. I don't really care how everyone chooses to view him. I just wish we could get some consistency instead of identifying him in whatever way best supports a particular viewpoint in the debate of the moment.

Hmmmmm....He doesn't come off as a guy that grew up in the black neighborhoods of any city that I know of...until he begins talking to a group of people from those black neighborhoods, but that is for another discussion and another forum.

 

[Dr. Remy Lebeau]

I love the idea of changing the origin of Sue and Johnny and making Johnny black. I think it'll make for a more interesting movie than that last two.

 

[bubbadoom]

This has always intrigued me. When Obama ran and was eventually elected I never heard anyone praising the election of our first half-black president. In fact I recall resentment expressed about any mention of that fact as it was seen as trying to diminish a great accomplishment by the black community as a whole. In that context he is 'black' as any other African American. But somehow when it seems that a distinction needs to be made to make a point, Obama suddenly becomes 'half white', not truly black. I don't really care how everyone chooses to view him. I just wish we could get some consistency instead of identifying him in whatever way best supports a particular viewpoint in the debate of the moment.

Seems like downplaying and/or ignoring his white side is very disrespectful to the white grand parents who raised him after he was abandoned by first his African father and then his white mother...

 

[Spider‑Man]

Seems like downplaying and/or ignoring his white side is very disrespectful to the white grand parents who raised him after he was abandoned by first his African father and then his white mother...

I don't disagree. I just think it's funny how some on here who have referred to obama as bi-racial would probably be offended at referencing his 'whiteness' unless it suited their purposes somehow. I'm sure they never got excited when obama was elected and proclaimed "Hey, we have our first half-white/half-black president!" I'm sure it was what EVERYONE was saying - our first BLACK president. BUt somehow, if they need to make a point like 'the world couldn't deal with a real black superman', obama's whiteness has to be brought to attention to apparently distinguish him from a 'real' black man. It just seems that there is a little hypocrisy involved in switching back and forth on how he is referred to.

 

[Spider‑Man]

Hmmmmm....He doesn't come off as a guy that grew up in the black neighborhoods of any city that I know of...until he begins talking to a group of people from those black neighborhoods, but that is for another discussion and another forum.

Indeed.

 

[SuperT]

That's part of what I was saying before about certain black characters being incidentally black. Instead of making a big deal about their race, if it were something which people didn't have to keep being reminded of, they could just get on with having great adventures. Sometimes you want to just come into a comic (or TV show, movie etc) without any of that baggage but just to relax and escape from reality. With TV shows where an issue is continually pressed, you have to be in the right frame of mind to want to watch it, whereas something which is relatively baggage free allows you to watch it more easily.

War Machine is a good example of a character who is incidentally black. He's an interesting character but doesn't keep harping on about his background, ethnicity or any injustice he might've felt etc. Therefore you can concentrate on him having his adventures and being a superhero. He was even that way when he was Iron Man for a while, and in fact many people actually preferred his version over Tony Stark's, because suddenly Iron Man was more laid back and wise cracking, and was more of an everyman. Of course, the movie version has changed that because of RDJ's personality (they've made Rhodey more of the straight man to RDJ's wise cracker).

So basically, what you're reinforcing is that most white readers and viewers don't want African-American characters to talk about their "blackness" at all because it makes them uncomfortable. They don't want to face or talk about the very real fact that being African-American (or any other minority) in the US certainly does have a different implication an effect on oneself, their image, and how they assimilate into society in comparison to caucasian people or characters.

Ridiculous.

 

[terry78]

Basically when Obama is doing good he's half white, when he's a problem he's all black. Not to get political, so just leave it at that.

 

[bubbadoom]

Basically when Obama is doing good he's half white, when he's a problem he's all black. Not to get political, so just leave it at that.

If this were true, his white side would never be mentioned !

Too easy to pass up...