"Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

[Jennifer Walters]

Okay...

But

What are the purist deepest aspects of Johnny as a character?

He's wise cracking, he's good looking, ladies love him, he's a good brother, he can jump the gun quite a lot, but in the end he's a good person to have on your side.

None of those have a single damn thing to do with his skin color.

Characteristics are what made you fall in love with him as a character and name yourself after him. His appearance had very little if anything to do with it.

 

[Juicy J]

But appearances are still part of the character.
Sue Storm has blonde hair; I ideally wouldn't want anyone but a blonde playing her. Reed Richards is smart and semi-skinny looking; someone with a large, bulky build shouldn't be playing him.
Yes appearances aren't the most important thing, but it's still a part of it for me. So I'm with the guy two posts above.
I want him to be white simply because he's white in the comics.
That is literally it. Nothing even remotely racist about that, nothing even remotely offensive about that.
That being said, since that's a simple, straight forward reason, if/when this guy is cast in the role I won't lose any sleep over it. End of the day it's not a huge deal.

 

[Sawyer]

But appearances are still part of the character.
Sue Storm has blonde hair

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Primarily they should cast based on acting skill.

But secondarily they should cast based on physical appearance.

I'm still working on the courage to be as unapologetically purist as Human Torch.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

And do you know why he's white?

Because he was made in 1961.

That's the only reason he's white. It's literally the least important detail about any of the Fantastic Four characters.

If you want to be that faithful to how they were concieved. Let's go ahead and make Sue a meek little girl who gets abused by Reed and the rest of the men on the team for simply being a woman.

Eventually they grew from that and it was based on the times. It's the same thing here.

And if it really bugs you that much think of it as an alternate universe anyways, which is what these movies are anyways.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

And do you know why he's white?

Because he was made in 1961.

That's the only reason he's white. It's literally the least important detail about any of the Fantastic Four characters.

If you want to be that faithful to how they were concieved. Let's go ahead and make Sue a meek little girl who gets abused by Reed and the rest of the men on the team for simply being a woman.

Eventually they grew from that and it was based on the times. It's the same thing here.

And if it really bugs you that much think of it as an alternate universe anyways, which is what these movies are anyways.

C'mon. They still make white characters in 2013.

 

[Jennifer Walters]

Yes, but they also make more gay, black, lesbian, Asian, Mexican, bisexual, transgender and general minority characters in 2013, because the times have changed and people are more accepting of that and less afraid of that character not being successful simply because of the color of their skin or their sexuality.

That simply wasn't the case in 1961 so the default was white.

The default is still white, but we're more accepting and step away from that WAY more.

He's white literally because it's the default for most characters.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

Yes, but they also make more gay, black, lesbian, Asian, Mexican, bisexual, transgender and general minority characters in 2013, because the times have changed and people are more accepting of that and less afraid of that character not being successful simply because of the color of their skin or their sexuality.

That simply wasn't the case in 1961 so they default was white.

The default is still white, but we're more accepting and step away from that anymore.

He's white literally because it's the default for most characters.

Maybe it was just the default for Stan Lee and Jack Kirby. Because their characters were reflections of themselves.

 

[Human Torch]

The thing to me is,no one is saying (well,I'll at least speak for myself) that a black actor can't portray Human Torch-and do it very well.But at the end of the day,it's just not the same character as reflected by the comic.

Denzel Washington is a great actor.Could he play Abraham Lincoln,well?He probably could.But,it'll most likely never happen,because Lincoln wasn't black.(And by the same token,Danial Day Lewis couldn't get the role of Malcolm X,regardless how great an actor he is-nor should he.)

Now I know the knee jerk reaction will be "You can't compare historical persons with comic book characters!" but honestly...why not?Is it some kind of "backward thinking" to want the characters you've grown up reading and whose histories you've internalized backwards and forwards to reflect the original source as much as possible?

And not to beat a stale line into the ground,but this goes for characters of other races as well.(I don't want a white Blade,Falcon,etc)

 

[Jennifer Walters]

If you seriously think Johnny Storm's skin color plays as important part of his character as Malcolm X and Abraham Lincoln's do to them then...

 

[JP]

Johnny Storm's race carries just as much impact as an historical figure does.

 

[Project862006]

this make me hate fanboys anytime i hear well lets make black panther white type arguments

do people think before they type

 

[Juicy J]

Care to explain this?

 

[SuperFerret]

Care to explain this?

Is your skin, hair, or eye color such a large part of who you are that you can say it defines you without it sounding hilarious?

Look,I'm unapologetically purist.I want the characters to reflect the comic as much as possible.

That's the way dad did it....and it's worked out pretty well so far.

By the way, hilarious example of purism right there. Tony Stark isn't a likeable dick in the comics.

 

[JerseyJoker]

Comic Books and comic book movies aren't just created and made for heterosexual white males.

So maybe ... it's a good idea to act like this isn't the 40's and give someone else but white males a chance of playing characters that DON'T EXIST in real life, so skin color truly doesn't matter as long as their personality traits are the key element brought from the comics and not their color palate.

 

[Project862006]

i would'nt mind if jordan was cast but maybe I'm a hypocrite since i would flip if my fav. comic book hero wolverine were cast a different color but at the same time logan is candian

but johnny is no logan

 

[Spider‑Man]

Wow, it's gettin' hot in here.

Some interesting comments. So it seems that the basic feeling behind support for changing the Torch's race is a change that increases inclusion without changing the basic character traits as long as the role is played by a quality actor.

So I want to ask if anyone would have a problem with some of the following changes that follow those guidelines:

- making Johnny or Ben homosexual
- Having any of the 4 played by a very tall (7' +) or very short (<5') quality actor/actress - none of the characters' personalities/powers bear any relation to their height
- having any of the parts played by quality actors/actresses who are slightly overweight to obese - see above
- having any of the roles played by quality actors/actresses with some physical deformities (missing limbs, etc.) - I could see this working really well for the Torch - in human form he has to be in a wheelchair but as the Torch, he can fly!
- changing the names of the characters to reflect more ethnicity (Sanchez, Chang, Yamata, Rajani, etc.) - on the bell curve, the Japanese are regarded as the most technologically intelligent race so having the smartest man in the world be Japanese would make sense

All of these changes would certainly go a long way towards helping the movie be more inclusive (I'm sure there are homosexuals, very tall and very short people, overweight people, people with deformities of some sort as well as people of different ethnic origin other than white people who enjoy comic books) without changing the characters' main personality traits (none of the changes listed above would affect those traits).

So is all of this fair game in an FF movie or is it only fair to change the race of characters from white to black?

 

[spidergeek232]

Okay...

But

What are the purist deepest aspects of Johnny as a character?

He's wise cracking, he's good looking, ladies love him, he's a good brother, he can jump the gun quite a lot, but in the end he's a good person to have on your side.

None of those have a single damn thing to do with his skin color.

Characteristics are what made you fall in love with him as a character and name yourself after him. His appearance had very little if anything to do with it.

Thumbs up!

 

[Juicy J]

Is your skin, hair, or eye color such a large part of who you are that you can say it defines you without it sounding hilarious?

Did I ever say it 'defines' the character? Don't put words in my mouth. I simply said it's part of the character. Am I wrong? Is it not part of the character or something? What's hilarious exactly?
Look I flat out admitted that while I'd prefer them to not change anything major about the appearances of the character that I'd be fine if they did. It's not a big deal, once again, but as a purist I'd like everything to stay as closely to the comics as possible. It's that simple folks. Not real tough to grasp.
But according to the people here if you hold to that belief you're either a racist or your opinion is patronized and belittled, so way to go guys.

 

[bubbadoom]

It's funny that some are being labeled "racist" for no other reason than wanting these characters to remain true to their roots.

As mentioned before, there is NO reason for War Machine to be black - other than he was black in the comics - and I suspect all those wanting to keep Johnny white would have been just as vocal if Rhodey was changed to anything but black.

I just thumbed through the first appearance of the Falcon in Captain America - it's a three issue story arc and there is no real reason for him to be African-American as the story takes place on "the Isle of the Exiles" far from US shores. BUT, I am happy he is black in the new Cap movie, and would have been disappointed if he was not true to his comic book roots.

I know folks who wanted Elektra to be [or at least look] Greek in the DD movie - not because they are "racist" but because that's the way she was in the comics.

I know it's popular these days [in the US anyway] to label those you disagree with a "racist" in hopes of shutting them up when you have no real counter argument to their position - I hope the folks here don't fall for this bully tactic.

 

[Mad Ones]

... Did you read the cracked article?

 

[DarKush]

I just read that Cracked article and it was so on point. Kudos to the writer and whoever originally posted the link.

 

[Kelly]

Lumping all people who have a problem with this casting, or simply feel that there are other actors better, and waiting to see if they are up for the role as well with the cracked article is pretty dumb...

 

[SuperFerret]

That goes without saying Kelly, however, if you look at the responses, you'll see a strong undercurrent of ignorance in them.

I don't know this actor at all, and frankly, I would prefer the characters to appear as if they've jumped off the page, but changing a character's outward physical appearance is not something that would make me boycott the movie or even complain about the casting. Make Johnny Storm black for all I care, maybe that actor can pull it off the same way a tall, handsome Australian pulled off a short, ugly Canadian for the past decade and a half.

 

[bubbadoom]

Well, with regards to the Cracked article - I reject the notion that it is "nerd racism" - again it's labeling people with an offensive term in hopes of shutting them up.

Yes, many of these characters were created at a time when the majority of the comic book readership was [I assume] white - that's just a fact - deal with it - move on.

Marvel quickly started adding diverse characters in their books as early as 1963 with Sgt. Fury - black, Jewish, southern, Italian, etc. FF introduced American Indian and African characters. When these characters make it into a Marvel film I want them to be as close to their comic counterparts as possible - not because of their race but because that is how they were created and were intended to be. Nothing wrong with that.