Fant4stic "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

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I'm sorry but i simply just cannot wrap my head around the line of thinking that if Sue was white and Johnny was black, and one or the other was adopted that it would in some way change their relationship as siblings.

That is just patently absurd to me.

To me it kinda demonstrates that some people are either really have been sheltered from being exposed to that type of reality in their own lives or they're just ignorant and believe that race and adoption are barriers to bonding. In either case , it means they need to get out more and met more people.
 
If I were the writers of these comics, and the artists, and for close to 60 years, your ideas were for a certain look, even though that look may change with styles etc....someone coming along and changing as drastically as the race? Would upset me....has nothing to do with racism, which so many seem to try and make it out to be, it has to do very much with "the look" of the character, the lifestyle, the culture, etc....is changed. Not saying that one race, lifestyle, culture is better than the other, but again some will interpreter that as being the problem. It is simply that it is a change that does not have to happen. Sue changed over the years because the lifestyle, culture of "women" changed. To keep her up with the times. That is not needed here, therefore kind weird that the change is even talked about.
 
To me it kinda demonstrates that some people are either really have been sheltered from being exposed to that type of reality in their own lives or they're just ignorant and believe that race and adoption are barriers to bonding. In either case , it means they need to get out more and met more people.

That is ridiculous. I am the only person of my race living anywhere near around me. I teach in a school that is 80% hispanic, less than 20% my race...I have a great capacity to understand the reality of race, etc. I've taught for 22 years, I have had dozens of adopted, fostered students come through my classes....there is no ignorance there. The question is, was the change really needed? And my answer is, not not really. If the actor was just this phenomenal actor that no one could match is abilities then sure maybe there just wasn't another choice. But, there are choices that keep the character closer to what he has been for 60 years.

It is called, is the change actually needed to further Johnny's characterization in the movie? no...it is an unnecessary change. Not because I'm racist...simply because if the change is made, it is really unnecessary. This actor would/could not portray the character any better than any of the others that have been tossed around on this board, or are on the short list.

Now, this discussion may all be in vain because it is just a rumor, but really the idea that people just don't have the capacity to understand the need for a change like this for some reason, is ridiculous.
 
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Go read my post again. I didn't say a Black Superman could EXIST because the prez is black. Your assertion was that America could not accept the reality of a black figure being as powerful as Superman -'they'd **** a brick, remember? - I said that if they could ACCEPT a black man as president, they could ACCEPT a black Superman in real life.

A direct refutal of your point went straight over your head. Deal with it.

But you keep on coming up with those great 'theories' of yours. :whatever:


1) It was a theory I created for personal laughs based on my experiences in America as a Black man.

2) Black men have been gunned down for mere SUSPICION of having a weapon. You think that society would hypothetically accept the existence of a Black, nearly-immortal, super-powered alien because we elected a bi-racial, Ivy League graduate, as President.

3) Based on our debate, and your other posts in this thread, I'm done responding. You have no frame of reference, besides comic books, to discuss this topic objectively.
 
Well, I have a funny feeling that Trank is getting just what he wanted from this little possible leak, whether it is true or not. haha
 
If I were the writers of these comics, and the artists, and for close to 60 years, your ideas were for a certain look, even though that look may change with styles etc....someone coming along and changing as drastically as the race? Would upset me....has nothing to do with racism, which so many seem to try and make it out to be, it has to do very much with "the look" of the character, the lifestyle, the culture, etc....is changed. Not saying that one race, lifestyle, culture is better than the other, but again some will interpreter that as being the problem. It is simply that it is a change that does not have to happen. Sue changed over the years because the lifestyle, culture of "women" changed. To keep her up with the times. That is not needed here, therefore kind weird that the change is even talked about.

Why couldn't your explanation of Sue's role changing as a woman over the years apply to race as well? About 99% of these characters were created during the 50's & 60s (some even well before that) a time when African-Americans, or any other minority for that matter, being in any sort of main stream media was completely out of the question. So essentially they were caucasian only because they HAD to be because of the times not because that was some integral part of their character.

Now that we've grown as a society why couldn't some characters - whose race has absolutely nothing to do with their character they are just simply white just because that was the default - be African-American or other races if the actor or actress is good enough for the role?

The whole line of thinking that "They've always been like that, so they must always be like that" in regards to characters looks, especially from comics, is
crazy to me. Especially when there isn't anything special or defining about the characters looks that shapes who they are to begin with.
 
Why couldn't your explanation of Sue's role changing as a woman over the years apply to race as well? About 99% of these characters were created during the 50's & 60s (some even well before that) a time when African-Americans, or any other minority for that matter, being in any sort of main stream media was completely out of the question. So essentially they were caucasian only because they HAD to be because of the times not because that was some integral part of their character.

Now that we've grown as a society why couldn't some characters - whose race has absolutely nothing to do with their character they are just simply white just because that was the default - be African-American or other races if the actor or actress is good enough for the role?

The whole line of thinking that "They've always been like that, so they must always be like that" in regards to characters looks, especially from comics, is
crazy to me. Especially when there isn't anything special or defining about the characters looks that shapes who they are to begin with.

If they were changed within the comic book itself, then I would agree with you. But again, really bottomline for me, there just isn't a real good reason for the change, with other people as well suited for the character out there, and have a similar look as Johnny of the comics in 2013, really no need for the change.
 
This change may be unneccesary and, in the eyes of many, disrepectful to the source material but just because it is doesn't mean that it can presented or executed a way that wouldn't be as good as if they had gone with a traditional look and/or backstory.

Now yes, there are many comic book characters (main and secondary) as well as backstories where no matter how something such as changing their race (in terms of how that imagery is associated with the character) just will not work.

However, I don't think this is one of those situations.

I believe this isn't a case where such a change is unacceptable and that it can't be good or, in a way, for the better.

Its not twist on the backstory I or anyone would have expected but it can be a good one nonetheless. It's all in how we perceive it and, unfortunately, many, if not most, of us won't see that way until proven otherwise.
 
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It's the same everytime a characters race has changed and some fans react you get people calling them racist, ignorant or closed minded. It's not as black and white as that.

My personal problem is changing for the sake of changing. I had these same complaints with X-Men First Class where it seemed they were making unnecessary changes to characters e.g Havok being considerably older than Cyclops and possibly not even be related.

For characters like Perry White, Alicia Masters and Heimdell then thats fine they're only supporting characters and it brings diversity and those kind of characters can be opened up for change. As changing the race doesn't change that much about them but when you talk about major characters where you have to change things around them because of the change you made then for me it just doesn't work.
 
^ I wasn't referring to the race thing as ignorant or closed-minded; what I was referring to as closed-minded was this idea that any given character who was depicted as being 'white' in the comics should only consequently be played by a 'white' actor on film, and what I was referring to as ignorant was this idea that making Johnny and Sue adopted siblings somehow changes the nature of their relationship.
 
1) It was a theory I created for personal laughs based on my experiences in America as a Black man.

SO for personal laughs you sit around trying to come up with new ways to portray black people as victims? Glad you find that humorous.

tdeverea said:
2) Black men have been gunned down for mere SUSPICION of having a weapon. You think that society would hypothetically accept the existence of a Black, nearly-immortal, super-powered alien because we elected a bi-racial, Ivy League graduate, as President.

Spare me more of your victimhood. Yes, a superpowered black alien would be just as accepted/rejected as a white one.

tdeverea said:
3) Based on our debate, and your other posts in this thread, I'm done responding. You have no frame of reference, besides comic books, to discuss this topic objectively.

You SHOULD stop responding with the ignorant crap you come up with. I'm sure you sit behind your high-speed internet computer and read your comics and somehow picture yourself as some street-wise, know-what-the-real-deal-is, white-man-holdin-me-down brotha who's down for the struggle. That image just gave me a personal laugh.
 
One of the biggest problems I have with Marvel is that most of their famous and influential characters were created at a time when whiteness was expected and there wasn't a lot of divergence from that. Now, in the 21st century, Marvel's leading characters are still mostly white because creators have nostalgia and personal fondness of the characters they grew up with. The amount of blond hair, blue eyed characters in Marvel is kinda staggering.

So I totally support gender blind casting in movies to break from this mold. Just my two cents. I can imagine most fans are pretty upset.
 
One of the biggest problems I have with Marvel is that most of their famous and influential characters were created at a time when whiteness was expected and there wasn't a lot of divergence from that. Now, in the 21st century, Marvel's leading characters are still mostly white because creators have nostalgia and personal fondness of the characters they grew up with. The amount of blond hair, blue eyed characters in Marvel is kinda staggering.

So I totally support gender blind casting in movies to break from this mold. Just my two cents. I can imagine most fans are pretty upset.

I can see where you are coming from, but IMO, begin to show that support by bringing some of their different characters to do that...OR, BETTER, come up with new ones, and begin to build those comics and movies.
 
Nevermind... its just not worth it.
 
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Dont you just love how when you dont agree with other people's opinions, they automatically assume and mark you as .... youve been sheltered your whole life, are ignorant, racist, stereotype, bitter, a troll, homophobic, etc.

Even when you've stated your reasoning clearly and rationally. Its why I dont come here very often.

The SpiderMan threads are the worst.

Hey, anytime race is brought into the picture, holy cow all kinds of things start coming out...I didn't take the post as quite all of that, lol. But, he explained himself a little more in another post. It's all good...:cwink:
 
I can see where you are coming from, but IMO, begin to show that support by bringing some of their different characters to do that...OR, BETTER, come up with new ones, and begin to build those comics and movies.
I 100% agree! The only problem is that Marvel is pretty bad at making new characters and heavily relies on the comic book properties it created in the 60s and 70s. Fans are also notoriously reluctant to support new characters and many fall into obscurity due to lack of support. Hollywood is going to make movies based on the most well known titles, which are mostly white.

It's a conundrum, but it's also why I support colour blind (and even gender blind *gasp*) casting in some cases.
 
I'm wondering if part of the reason why some of these comic books featuring black characters did not sell well was because they were too specifically written as black people from those backgrounds, instead of just a character who happens to be black.

For example, Black Panther had the African backstory and very specific African culture. Not everyone might have necessarily been able to relate to that in the US. Luke Cage was written as someone from a poor neighbourhood in Harlem. Again, that might only appeal to a certain percentage of the readers.

On the other hand, are some of the white characters written specifically as white or as neutral and just happen to be white? Are they facing specifically "white" issues or just issues that every person faces, whereas maybe some of the black characters had issues that were too culturally specific?

Had Black Panther not been an African king but just an agile black guy living in New York who decided to don a costume and call himself Black Panther, he might not have been far different from these other street-level costumed fighters like Daredevil and Spider-Man. Would he have been more popular and been able to sustain a book? I don't know. He might have had a broader appeal though because he might be more of an everyman than mainly appealing to a certain type of audience.
 
I'm wondering if part of the reason why some of these comic books featuring black characters did not sell well was because they were too specifically written as black people from those backgrounds, instead of just a character who happens to be black.

For example, Black Panther had the African backstory and very specific African culture. Not everyone might have necessarily been able to relate to that in the US. Luke Cage was written as someone from a poor neighbourhood in Harlem. Again, that might only appeal to a certain percentage of the readers.

On the other hand, are some of the white characters written specifically as white or as neutral and just happen to be white? Are they facing specifically "white" issues or just issues that every person faces, whereas maybe some of the black characters had issues that were too culturally specific?

Had Black Panther not been an African king but just an agile black guy living in New York who decided to don a costume and call himself Black Panther, he might not have been far different from these other street-level costumed fighters like Daredevil and Spider-Man. Would he have been more popular and been able to sustain a book? I don't know. He might have had a broader appeal though because he might be more of an everyman than mainly appealing to a certain type of audience.

I think it's just the opposite with the Black Panther - when originally introduced he was a cool and original concept in the FF and Cap stories. Later in the Bronze Age appearances they "urbanized" him too much, almost removing what made him unique and reducing him to just another "black" character hardly any different from the Falcon, Black Goliath, or Luke Cage. He did have a breath of fresh air when Kirby came back and he got a solo book in the '70's but Jack's stay at Marvel was very brief. There is something good there - it just has to be dealt with right.
 
It is called, is the change actually needed to further Johnny's characterization in the movie? no...it is an unnecessary change. Not because I'm racist...simply because if the change is made, it is really unnecessary. This actor would/could not portray the character any better than any of the others that have been tossed around on this board, or are on the short list.

Thank you Kelly. You are the true voice of reason when it comes to things like this... Johnny should be closer to the comic-book version. The race change isn't necessary for someone like The Human Torch.

I'm thinking of all these unnecessary changes I've mentioned a page or so back in various other comic-book movies that doesn't make for a better movie. Creative liberties aren't always a good thing unless the story warrants it... not at the whims of a director, producer, or studio head that thinks better.
 
Hey, if the Torch is going to be black, why not a white Falcon in Cap 2? Or an Asian Luke Cage?

This just smacks of senseless "stunt casting" to get some buzz going. I hope it's not true.
 
Yeah. When less then 10% of superheroes are racial minorities, why not reduce that number a little more instead of fixing the problem!

It's not stunt casting. The director has worked with him before and obviously feels he has what it takes to bring Johnny Storm to life (if this rumour is even true). Johnny is more than just his whiteness. What I don't understand is how some people are ok with Heimdal and other characters having their race changed, but draw the line at the Human Torch. It's like people think he's too well known and liked to be played by a black person?
 
and mbj couldn't of just give a great screen test to sway their opinions??

why does it have to be stunt casting or change for the sake of change and not just a good actor being offered a role
 
I'm wondering if part of the reason why some of these comic books featuring black characters did not sell well was because they were too specifically written as black people from those backgrounds, instead of just a character who happens to be black.

For example, Black Panther had the African backstory and very specific African culture. Not everyone might have necessarily been able to relate to that in the US. Luke Cage was written as someone from a poor neighbourhood in Harlem. Again, that might only appeal to a certain percentage of the readers.

On the other hand, are some of the white characters written specifically as white or as neutral and just happen to be white? Are they facing specifically "white" issues or just issues that every person faces, whereas maybe some of the black characters had issues that were too culturally specific?

Had Black Panther not been an African king but just an agile black guy living in New York who decided to don a costume and call himself Black Panther, he might not have been far different from these other street-level costumed fighters like Daredevil and Spider-Man. Would he have been more popular and been able to sustain a book? I don't know. He might have had a broader appeal though because he might be more of an everyman than mainly appealing to a certain type of audience.


I think you pose some interesting questions. Personally I don't care for the term 'happens to be' whatever, because it makes it feel like it's an accident, and racial categorization is something that isn't an accident in this country.

While some of the first, and subsequent black superheroes were probably created not only to add diversity but to address racial inequality, I don't see how that makes them too culturally specific for mainstream readers (i.e. whites) to grasp, especially today. It's funny to me that so many comic book readers get Asgard, Atlantis, Galactus, Kirby's Fourth World, etc, but can't wrap their heads around or find some commonality in black human characters. Perhaps there is a fear or annoyance that black characters are going to be preachy or talk about racism, and it's something they don't want to hear.

Some of those characters did address those issues back in the day, but that's something very rarely done today, and if it is, it usually confirms with the very acceptable mainstream 'personal responsibility, bootstraps' lines. Yet I wonder why there seems to be this either trepidation or disinterest where black characters are concerned far too often.

I think far too many whites buy into this belief that they are raceless and objective, that their culture is universal. I'm black. I don't think that is the case, but it doesn't stop me from reading, enjoying, and supporting a lot of white cultural products, including many comics (including some comics that feature black characters). I think there is enough commonality in the white experience that I can get it, even if I don't agree with everything within that culture. I have to wonder if some of the whites who are recalcitrant would just try to reach out a little more they might find something different than they were expecting.

As for your Black Panther example, we do have instances where Panther has removed himself from some or all of the trappings of his Wakandan heritage and that didn't result in an increase in his book sales. Granted, going along with your line of argument, perhaps the 'damage' had already been done in the minds of readers so they weren't going to accept him regardless.

But if Black Panther had just been an 'agile black guy living in New York', I still think he would have encountered the same issues. I mean, some would charge that he's a rip off of Spider-Man or Daredevil, ergo they aren't going to support him. Also, Marvel already have black characters like Luke Cage, Falcon, Night Thrasher, etc. and none of them have done as well as the African Black Panther at being the solo headliner in the a book.

Also, a black American adopting the name Black Panther could lead to a whole host of other racial issues due to the likely connotations some readers would make with the real-life Black Panther Party of the 60s and 70s.

I don't think we can escape race. I think we have to deal with it. And I find nothing wrong with characters that reflect that.

I do take issue though at times with white creators' ideas of what a black character is, should be, etc.

In the 60s and 70s, that was the best you were going to get in mainstream comics and I applaud many of those efforts. But some 40 years later I still think mainstream comics is dealing with issues of diversity on the pages and behind them.

As for the Human Torch news, it struck me odd at first. And then I thought it might work if he's adopted. I'm sure they wouldn't have a black Sue and Johnny Storm. All that being said, if Jordan gets the role that's cool with me, though personally I would rather see a push to develop more black superhero films instead of just changing the race of white characters. In this instance I don't think Johnny Storm is really all that race/culture specific, but still it would be great to get a Black Panther, which might result in an increase in his comic book sales, his status within the company, and his merchandising. Ultimate Spider-Man, Luke Cage, and Blue Marvel could work for me. Don't think Storm or Brother Voodoo would work as a solo film and because they've screwed over Monica Rambeau over the years I would say no to a solo film, but I think they could all have some cool parts as ensembles. Same with Night Thrasher. I haven't seen how Don Cheadle fares in Iron Man 3 yet, but at least the groundwork has been seeded for a War Machine spin off if Marvel wanted to go in that direction.

On the DC side, John Stewart, Black Lightning, Static, Icon, or Mr. Terrific in a solo film would be great. And another crack at Steel or Vixen in the Justice League movie (sorry but I don't think she can carry a solo film unfortunately). Independents like Miranda Mercury and Black Jack are out there too and could make excellent films.
 
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^ You interpret "happens to be" in the wrong way. I'm not saying "happens to be" means it is something accidental but incidental. If you look at some movie characters like Will Smith in I, Robot, was he a specifically black character or was he just a person who had prejudices against robots (who had to learn to overcome them) and was incidentally black as well. He could've been any other nationality and he would've still been the same character.

What I liked about the original Mission: Impossible TV series was that there was a black character Barney Collier, played by Greg Morris. He was truly incidentally black. He was treated no differently from either the rest of the team or even by anyone else. He was able to operate as a spy and go undercover without people seeming to bat an eyelid and wonder what a black person was doing often in an all-white Eastern European country without raising suspicions. He was just as much a cypher as the others which therefore made him an equal. Granted, it's a fictional tv series, but it was still cool to watch.
 
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