Fant4stic "Flame On!" The Human Torch Thread

[Spider‑Man]

Basically when Obama is doing good he's half white, when he's a problem he's all black. Not to get political, so just leave it at that.

That's funny that you make that comment and say 'not to get political'. Too funny. Don't hold your feelings back, terry. Tell us how you REALLY feel!

 

[DarKush]

As a white kid in the '60's I had no issue with the Black Panther - he was just another in a long line of cool Kirby creations! Of course I noticed he was a black african, but that was not what defined his character - he was a cool, original and interesting character who happened to be an african ruler. It seems like every black character after that shoved their race in your face, giving one the impression that the chief reason they were created was because they were black and not because they were a good idea.


I want my movie characters to be as close to their comic counterparts as possible.

As a character, there is no reason for War Machine to be black, but I am glad that he is and would have been just as opposed to a race change in him [or the Falcon] as I am with the Torch. There is no logical reason for even considering a black actor for this other than "diversity" - which is not a good enough reason.

Obama is half white, so I guess it will be okay for a white actor to play him in a movie - right!

Well "shoving it in your face " or "harping" about race, as some terms I've just read, is a matter of opinion and generally one that I think that comes from white fanboys.

As a black guy who grew up in the '80s and '90s and really got into comics in the late '80s/early '90s, thankfully around the Milestone era, I never had a problem with stories that dealt with race. Granted some of them were hamfisted and very safe, but it never felt 'shoved in my face'.

When I think back to those early blacksuperheroes many were created by white creators to perhaps address or acknowledge the issues of racial inequality which were big in the media at that time. So I think these characters get pigeonholed into being just about "race" in terms of white-black relations.

War Machine isn't not as race specific anymore, IMO, as Falcon was and perhaps remains to some extent. So I could see a race change with War Machine but not so much with Falcon. Also changing the race of the first African-American superhero of the modern era would not sit well. I'm not a big fan of race changing or race bending in general, and I don't think characters of color should be race changed due in large part to the dearth of those characters in comics and other media. We need more characters of color, not less.


I do think it's easy for a white guy-to be real with you-to see 'diversity' as not a good reason because white guys are the dominant group in almost all media. If you were on the outside looking in I wonder if that might change your perspective.

Obama is half-white and I find it funny that some media was reporting how some whites were touting him being half-white and that's not black at the start of his first term. But once the glow of the inauguration faded you don't see too many stories like that. If you check the White House Correspondent's Dinner you will see that Daniel Day Lewis has already played Obama.

Though Fred Armisen did play Obama on SNL throughout Obama's first term and he isn't black.

 

[Dark Raven]

Well "shoving it in your face " or "harping" about race, as some terms I've just read, is a matter of opinion and generally one that I think that comes from white fanboys.

As a black guy who grew up in the '80s and '90s and really got into comics in the late '80s/early '90s, thankfully around the Milestone era, I never had a problem with stories that dealt with race. Granted some of them were hamfisted and very safe, but it never felt 'shoved in my face'.

When I think back to those early blacksuperheroes many were created by white creators to perhaps address or acknowledge the issues of racial inequality which were big in the media at that time. So I think these characters get pigeonholed into being just about "race" in terms of white-black relations.

War Machine isn't not as race specific anymore, IMO, as Falcon was and perhaps remains to some extent. So I could see a race change with War Machine but not so much with Falcon. Also changing the race of the first African-American superhero of the modern era would not sit well. I'm not a big fan of race changing or race bending in general, and I don't think characters of color should be race changed due in large part to the dearth of those characters in comics and other media. We need more characters of color, not less.


I do think it's easy for a white guy-to be real with you-to see 'diversity' as not a good reason because white guys are the dominant group in almost all media. If you were on the outside looking in I wonder if that might change your perspective.

Obama is half-white and I find it funny that some media was reporting how some whites were touting him being half-white and that's not black at the start of his first term. But once the glow of the inauguration faded you don't see too many stories like that. If you check the White House Correspondent's Dinner you will see that Daniel Day Lewis has already played Obama.

Though Fred Armisen did play Obama on SNL throughout Obama's first term and he isn't black.

Except that I'm not white, and I've experienced much racial discrimination and inequality in my life. But I don't want a character who is always dealing with that, even in the background, whether in comics or in a TV show or movie. Like I said before, you have to be in the right frame of mind for that.

Sometimes people just want to read a comic or watch a show for the adventure and for entertainment, and not to have the character constantly hung up about these other things. Even if a character is white but is constantly weighed down by some nagging issue or have a chip on their shoulder, they get tedious to watch or read about.

It's just like with a female character. Do you want to be watching or reading about them frequently making an issue of how unequal things are for them as women compared to men and all the injustices they feel, or do you want to just see them getting on with things and succeeding? I know which one I'd prefer and which one is more fun to follow in a comic/ show.

 

[bubbadoom]

I guess I just got spoiled by the Black Panther - he was SO great in those early FF and Suspense stories, and then the Avengers, that anyone that came after him paled in comparison...

 

[DarKush]

Except that I'm not white, and I've experienced much racial discrimination and inequality in my life. But I don't want a character who is always dealing with that, even in the background, whether in comics or in a TV show or movie. Like I said before, you have to be in the right frame of mind for that.

Sometimes people just want to read a comic or watch a show for the adventure and for entertainment, and not to have the character constantly hung up about these other things. Even if a character is white but is constantly weighed down by some nagging issue or have a chip on their shoulder, they get tedious to watch or read about.

It's just like with a female character. Do you want to be watching or reading about them frequently making an issue of how unequal things are for them as women compared to men and all the injustices they feel, or do you want to just see them getting on with things and succeeding? I know which one I'd prefer and which one is more fun to follow in a comic/ show.

I think it's an interesting reply. I can see your points, though I don't agree with you.

Race is a complicated issue and I've got mixed feelings about the first generation of black heroes that came out of Marvel and DC from the 60s-70s. I applaud the companies on one hand for actually creating them but perhaps the focus on racial injustice was just too much for many readers (some white and it appears nonwhite as well) to deal with. And it might have been perceived that that was the sole reason these characters were created and that they were not interesting beyond talking about whatever racial issue of the week kind of story they were either created for or bought in to address.

So there is an issue of inclusion, which I give good marks on, but development, which I think was very mixed. Perhaps if these characters would've been better developed and made more three dimensional, without losing their racial identities in the process, they might be less hostilely or indifferently received today. Someone I doubt that but I'm just speculating.

I think many people-myself included sometimes just want to be entertained-but at the same time I can't separate that entertainment from the people who have created that entertainment. I also can't accept the idea that art (including comics) can entertain but also inform.

Regarding your female example, for one an exploration of why she feels that way could be insightful. And it's all about the definition of 'success'. Can a female succeed in a sexist, patriarchal society without adopting the traits of that society, and if she adopts the traits of that society and does well within it, has she in fact succeeded? What does she give up in order to succeed? Is it worth the price? I think the same kind of questions can be applied to books about nonwhite characters in America. And these kind of questions maybe can get people talking and thinking and add a resonance to a book. The majority culture has the luxury not to think about those things and to write characters and concoct tales that are largely oblivious to those things. As a person of color, I don't feel I have that luxury, but that's just me.

Are the X-Men boring to you because they frequently address or discuss issues of mutant discrimination and prejudice?

I don't think the X-Men are harping on that, that's a part of who they are. It informs their worldview, it shapes them as characters, it provides storylines that make them unique to the Marvel universe and comics. But it doesn't mean they don't love, fight, lose, dream, or do all the other things that make them less interesting as characters.

Further, maybe some characters are 'always dealing' with racism or sexism because it's still occurring. And it's something that we as a society should pay attention to. It's uncomfortable. It goes against the bright, shiny portrait we have painted of ourselves, and we might want to rail against anyone who brings it up, but it's because of that anger, disquiet, and unease that we still need characters and creators brave enough to address these issues. Because that knee jerk reaction that some might feel to deny or shut down debate might turn into some introspective questioning. Or either if you start looking at ways to refute what you've read, people might find information along the way that they didn't know before and it might change their perspective. Then again, it might not. But that's all part of the fun I suppose.

One more thing: name me one character at either Marvel or DC today that is always 'dealing with' racism or sexism? How many even acknowledge the existence of race? How many even talk about racial or gender disparities? I think this idea that some black characters are beating white readers (or others) over the head about racism is erroneous. I think it was overblown back in the day and pretty much nonexistent today.

 

[Mr. Fixit]

Just curious - everyone who is all for this casting is also all for a potential new adoption storyline.

What if the actor who is cast as Human Torch ends up being white as in the past and as in the comics after all? Would you still be cool with he and Sue being adopted or would that change seem pointless and unnecessary?

My only point being, I get the impression if they had just added in an adoption storyline for the hell of it many fans would be like 'wtf' but now the possibility of that change is just being brushed off as nothing.

 

[Hypestyle]

how much rain can the Torch withstand and stay lit?

can the Torch maintain his flame-on during a tornado?

 

[DrCosmic]

It is a double stanbdard when you would gladly suport someone else's favorite character being changed to satisfy someone else (yourself) but would not approve of your favorite character being changed to satisfy them.

I would like to see more 'representation' in hiphop/rap music. I would like to see more representation in the NBA. Unfortunately, every microcosm of life soes not proportionally represent the whole. And to expect them to is beyond ignorant.

One problem with your analogy (actually there are a few) is that your daughter doesn't get tampons at your son's expense. I have no problem with 'representation' per se. But there are two ways to realize representation: change white characters to black characters OR create more black characters. Ithink it is funny how, in order to have a better proportional representation of society, some people would rather they change a bunch of characters' races than to actually be creative and come up with some new ones. It might be easy for you to say 'well, there aren't proportionally enough black comic book characters so the man should change some of the white charatcers black' using your argument for support which simultaneously protects you from having to see your favorite black characters' race changed. But every character is someone's favorite. And appeasing you would come at their expense. To think that they wouldn't/shouldn't mind seeing that is ignorant. To think them being upset about it would have to be for racist reasons is worse.

There's a difference between wanting representation and EXPECTING representation. It sounds like some feel Marvel/Hollywood should feel OBLIGATED to provide them with more black characters and it smacks of entitlement.

Many years ago, white men created the comic book industry. They created characters and wrote their stories. They even created the black characters you read today. NOw people feel entitled to take those established characters and see them changed for no other reason than to satisfy their own sense of 'right' with 'representation'. Sadly what most fail to realize is that historically, black characters are not financially sustainable in comics. I read Luke Cage growing up. I thought the comic was great but unfortunately the mag didn't sell well enough to justify Marvel keeping it in production. And the same has been true with Black Panther many times over.

Again I have no problem with representation. I don't even care if they create enough successful black characters that they are OVER-represented in comics. Just let it be done in a creative way (you know, like all the great characters were) instead of the lazy 'let's-just-change-the-race-of-this-character' manner.

BUt here's an idea (since so many think it is a good way to go): let's throw a bone to those that are REALLY under-represented and have the FF be made up of: A Japanese Reed, MUslim Arab Ben, Latino Johnny (we already had that with Sue) and East Indian Susan. That is a formula for success right there!

The character judgement part is what really tweaks me about the anti-change perspective. Consistent ignorant painting not of the actions, but of the motives of others. That re-interpreting a family dynamic is 'lazy,' but slapping on a token black character is 'creative.' That this is something that is expected rather than a pleasant surprise, and most of all, the fear of diversity, in which changing one race is interpreted as a threat to all the whiteness in the story, and not for any noble purpose, they're just throwing bones. No director can say "Y'know, maybe I shouldn't be recreating the 1950s" but they all must think "This should be more PC." This level of fallacious ad hominem and arrogant mind reading is disheartening and disturbing.

My favorite character is white, I'm not. If your favorite character being a different race from you is 'an expense' then the issue is not the change, the issue is how you see non-whites as unlike you in some way. That's scary.

My lord. If you think just because Hunter Parrish just finished a 7 year run on a hit television show and probably isn't actively searching for work, hes any less of an actor than jo-blow MBJ whose been in 3 low budget films and some B-roles in television series... well I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle.

The two actors have very similar experience. Very similar personalities, wit, charm. They are both attractive, both funny, both good actors (imo) and the only difference is one looks more like the part.

You mean more like the source material?
But yeah, I didn't realize Parrish was on Weeds, my bad. That said, the other differences include that one of them has a great working relationship with Fantastic Four's Director, also, one of them has been in a very successful indie film.

Not possible DrCosmic?

A homosexual incarnation of Sue portrayed by a male actor could easily exhibit qualities of being maternal and protective, attractive and instead of having children they could potentially adopt. Super powered beings could adopt super powered children, that's an interesting idea.

Plus - you have already stated you have no issues with tweaking the story to include adoption.

Yeah, a homosexual incarnation is not going to be sexually attractive to the majority of the audience. I'm not sure why you're arguing that. And making a male character seem maternal instead of over-protectively paternal is *not* easy, though it may be possible. Adopting makes the character seem even *less* maternal, as the babies have an actual mother who is not them.

I'm sorry dude, changing a character's physiology has a huge effect on the story you're telling, and requires you spend time trying to show that this man is feminine, which is not what the story is about.

Changing a character's skin tone simply adds more color to the story. These extreme analogies show how differently people see blacks from whites. Quite interesting. What's even more interesting is the "these characters we all grew up on are ours, go get your own" as though it's okay to reinterpret characters' origins/technologies/personalities/etc to be more like modern America, as long as it's the white part.

And again, all this over a rumor.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Dane DeHaan was rumored for this role long ago, and I would be highly skeptical of either DeHaan or Jordan.

Not just because neither seems right for the role, but if either actor is chosen, are we really expected to believe that the best actor for a very specific role that has been well defined over 50 years just happens to be an actor who Trank directed in his only major film?

The shear coincidence required for either of those actors to be the best choice of the thousands of actors who should be considered - as opposed to simply an easy choice - would be mind-boggling.

 

[Spider - Man]

The character judgement part is what really tweaks me about the anti-change perspective. Consistent ignorant painting not of the actions, but of the motives of others.

I agree. It is ignorant to paint the motives of people who don't want to see the race of a certain character changed as automatically racist.

That re-interpreting a family dynamic is 'lazy,' but slapping on a token black character is 'creative.'

You can't have it both ways. ONe minute, changing the character's race 'changes nothing' and now it is 're-interpretting the family dynamic'. It can't be both.

That this is something that is expected rather than a pleasant surprise, and most of all, the fear of diversity, in which changing one race is interpreted as a threat to all the whiteness in the story, and not for any noble purpose, they're just throwing bones. No director can say "Y'know, maybe I shouldn't be recreating the 1950s" but they all must think "This should be more PC." This level of fallacious ad hominem and arrogant mind reading is disheartening and disturbing.

What I said was expected was that comic companies/movie studios should be obligated to change characters race so that the ratio of white to black characters more closely reflects the real life ratio. Remember, representation? If you read back to one of my earlier posts, I state I don't care if they create enough black characters that they outnumber the white characters. I just don't see the need to change the race of already established characters, black or white or Chinese or LAtino. It has nothing to do with anyone feeling 'threatened'. You talk about others being extreme in their nalogies and whatnot. Can you even see how extreme your POV is?

My favorite character is white, I'm not. If your favorite character being a different race from you is 'an expense' then the issue is not the change, the issue is how you see non-whites as unlike you in some way. That's scary.

THis is where you really go off the rails. You erroneously think that everyone but you likes a character because they are the same race as themselves. People are upset over changing the race of the Torch just like they would be if they changed all the characters' names, changed their costumes to green and yellow. It wouldn't change who they were but they really wouldn't be the true interpretation of the characters we all know. I would be upset if they changed Spider-man's costume drastically for a movie, did their own 'interpretation' of it. That wouldn't necessarily change his character but to me it just wouldn't be Spider-Man.

Nowhere in this thread does anyone imply that they see non-whites as 'unlike them'. What is scary is how you somehow managed to extrapolate that from any of the posts in this thread. I think that must speak volumes about how YOU really feel. Fallacious ad hominem and arrogant mind reading, indeed!

Changing a character's skin tone simply adds more color to the story.

But only if the skin color is changed from white to black, right? Otherwise it would not be right, right? Right. Double-standard.

These extreme analogies show how differently people see blacks from whites. Quite interesting. What's even more interesting is the "these characters we all grew up on are ours, go get your own" as though it's okay to reinterpret characters' origins/technologies/personalities/etc to be more like modern America, as long as it's the white part.

And again, all this over a rumor.

I see that this will probably be hard for you to understand because you've already convinced yourself that all the white people in this thread who are against the change are so just because they feel that the Torch 'belongs' to them because he's white and they all feel like they're different from black people, but I would feel the same way about them changing the race of Luke Cage or The Falcon or Static. That has nothing to do with them 'belonging' to me.

So to wrap up, a question: wold you be ok with a Fantastic Four movie where an Eastern Indian scientist named Billy Bob Sklevage and his best friend, Chinese pilot Ignatious Chow want to get into space to study some cosmic rays? Billy Bob wants to bring along his Pakistani girlfriend and her adopted Latino little brother. They fly into space, get hit with the rays and all develop super powers. Bily Bob becomes like the blob, all stretchy, his girlfriend can disappear, her brother can ignite his body like a giant sparkler and Ignatious turns into a big gray walking slab of granite. They decide to become superheroes and design themselves bright red costumes with purple trim because those are BIlly Bob and Ignatious' school colors. They soon discover that an old classmate of Billy Bob's has become the supervillain Dr. Dread and go on to confront him in an explosive ending.

NOw we've changed the race of all the characters to make it more colorful. We've changed the names, costumes, and even the exact look of some of the characters (we even changed the color of the Thing!) but, hey, that doesn't change who they are, right? BIlly Bob is still the smartest man in the world, Ignatious is his cantankerous best friend who is now chronically depressed because he's a monster and uses humor to mask how he really feels. I mean, they are STILL the Fantastic Four, right? Hardly.

NOw I know that all together, these changes sound extreme, but I assure you, I would be upset over any single one. And it has nothing to do with racism. But you keep on thinking what you choose to...

 

[Mr. Fixit]

Spider - Man, I must say, good job of obliterating Dr Cosmic. I've been watching you go back and forth and he hasn't really refuted your points at all.

On that note...

"Yeah, a homosexual incarnation is not going to be sexually attractive to the majority of the audience. I'm not sure why you're arguing that."

Wow, I'm just going to change that up and let everyone examine how it sounds. Meaning I'll flip it....

"Yeah, a black incarnation is not going to be appealing to the majority of the audience. I'm not sure why you're arguing that."

 

[Project862006]

If Michael B Jordan is cast as Johnny Storm, then I'm boycotting this movie.

This is worse than that "Beyonce is up for Lois Lane role" rumours years ago.

how is this worse than that for 1 beyonce does'nt have lois lane's personality and 2 beyonce isn't an actress

MBJ is a great actor who has shown johnny's personality traits and an actor with tons of range

her being black was the least of the rumors problems

 

[DigificWriter]

Adopting makes the character seem even *less* maternal, as the babies have an actual mother who is not them.

This is one of the single most ignorant, patronizing, and blatantly insulting things I've ever heard of/read in my entire life (and I'm 32). I DARE you to say this to an adoptive parent or adopted child and see what happens. If you're not slapped or verbally accosted, I will be very surprised.

This kind of statement reminds me of Todd Akin's 'legitimate rape' blather and makes you look just as bad.

 

[Juicy J]

I don't know if any of you read cracked, it's a pretty big humor website, but a post from Spider - Man made it to the front page:
http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/the-5-most-insulting-defenses-nerd-racism/
Scroll down to number one.
Personally I think the writer is misguided and looking to be offended. I'm not all for a black guy playing Johnny Storm, but I won't lose any sleep if they do cast him.

 

[Mad Ones]

I don't know if any of you read cracked, it's a pretty big humor website, but a post from Spider - Man made it to the front page:
http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/the-5-most-insulting-defenses-nerd-racism/

Well done cracked. I see the comments that they tackled in this article all the time here (a couple people were directly quoted, but they all could easily have been taken from here). If people keep using the "it's not about race, I'm just a purist" argument or the "it's a double standard" argument they should definitely read this article.

 

[Kelly]

Basically when Obama is doing good he's half white, when he's a problem he's all black. Not to get political, so just leave it at that.

No to me, he's just a bad president.... The last guy was a white guy from TEXAS, and I still think he was a bad president too....

 

[Kelly]

Yeah, a homosexual incarnation is not going to be sexually attractive to the majority of the audience. I'm not sure why you're arguing that. And making a male character seem maternal instead of over-protectively paternal is *not* easy, though it may be possible. Adopting makes the character seem even *less* maternal, as the babies have an actual mother who is not them.

Wow, you actually typed that... *that's a head shaker*

 

[Enriquespy]

But.... Obama is great!!!!!


(Gets the popcorn and watches the can of worms get sloooowly opened)


Now, seriously, Im cool with a black Jhonny Storm, and I would be cool with a Black Superman, Batman or Captain America.

Im even up for a white Santo, and i'm mexican!!

Minimal appereance aspects such as ethnicity shoudn't be of so much consideration in choosing an actor.

 

[SpideyFan866]

If Michael B Jordan is cast as Johnny Storm, then I'm boycotting this movie.

This is worse than that "Beyonce is up for Lois Lane role" rumours years ago.

................................................

 

[Jack O Lantern]

How does altering Johnny's race affect his character in anyway?

They're trying to make the movie more inclusive. Good for them.

 

[GREEN =w= DAY]

If Michael B Jordan is cast as Johnny Storm, then I'm boycotting this movie.

This is worse than that "Beyonce is up for Lois Lane role" rumours years ago.

LOL

i wouldn't go as far as to say that it is worse than Beyonce playing Lois Lane, but it's close

either way, hopefully this is just a BS rumor just trying to stir things up and get some attention

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

No to me, he's just a bad president.... The last guy was a white guy from TEXAS, and I still think he was a bad president too....

but then I remember out of all the presidents only about 6 have really been "good" so... there's that.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

I don't know if any of you read cracked, it's a pretty big humor website, but a post from Spider - Man made it to the front page:
http://www.cracked.com/quick-fixes/the-5-most-insulting-defenses-nerd-racism/
Scroll down to number one.
Personally I think the writer is misguided and looking to be offended. I'm not all for a black guy playing Johnny Storm, but I won't lose any sleep if they do cast him.

Hey cool I'm on there!

Did a great job making those anonymous and unbiased. That's some real classy journalism, Cracked.

 

[Sawyer]

If Michael B Jordan is cast as Johnny Storm, then I'm boycotting this movie.

This is worse than that "Beyonce is up for Lois Lane role" rumours years ago.

First you come into the SHIELD thread saying that having three females in the cast somehow "outnumbers" or "overshadows" the three male castmembers.

Now you're saying that having a very talented young actor with a different skin color than the character he's playing would be worse than having a semi-talented singer and not overly talented actress playing Lois Lane.

Either you're trolling or you've got some sort of white male superiority complex.

 

[SuperFerret]

Hey cool I'm on there!

Did a great job making those anonymous and unbiased. That's some real classy journalism, Cracked.

It was anonymous enough that it took me a bit to find this thread and your post, which I'm continually laughing at.