For People Who Hate Frank Miller...

[Keyser Soze]

Why do you hate him?

I run a column called Comic Book Club over on Project Fanboy, where people read and discuss a set list of graphic novels on a given theme. The next meeting is on the subject, Frank Miller: Genius or Hack?

What I'm looking to do is identify about 3 key aspects of Miller's writing that seem to be unpopular amongst today's comic book readers, and explore how they apply to the graphic novels on the reading list. I have a fairly good idea what these are, but it would be helpful to confirm it by talking to comic book fans on the subject.

So, tell me, for those who hate Frank Miller, why do you hate him?

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

Dark Knight Strikes Again
All-Star Batman

 

[Keyser Soze]

What is it about these books you hate?

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

Everything.

 

[K.B.]

Rehashing the same themes and plot over and over

SUPER reptitive script (possibly only writes 4 sentences per issue and breaks those up over 22 pages)

Slang terms NOBODY has ever used in the history of the universe. EVER.

Women are shown as "****es" (he claims his women are "empowered")

 

[Captain Useless]

I don't hate him, it's more like I'm dissapointed in him.
It seems like he's a good writer, but if he get's too much freedom it just turns to the sheeit.

 

[The Shadow]

I haven't read too much of his comics but I don't like him simply because he completely ruined The Spirit movie. A work which could have been so could, but ego-istic Frank Miller decided the heck with Will Eisner's Spirit. I'm gonna make Sin City 2. Well at least it didn't get an R-rating like people originally thought it would. With all the unneccesary sex and nudity in it. And whats up with making the octopus like that. 1.) You're not supposed to see his face...ever! 2.) He's supposed to be white. 3.) Of all people, why did he have to choose Sam. L. Jackson. and 4.) An african american in a Nazi uniform...that makes since. Also, I'm made that they put neither Ebony White nor Sammy in the movie. And that my friend is why I don't like Frank Miller.

 

[K.B.]

His reason for Ebony not being in the film is he said Ebony was a racist characiture (now keep in mind Darwyn Cook made Ebony just a regular black character but hey, Cooks got talent)

That being said...Miller, instead of having a strong black character in his film, denounces it as racist yet turns around and has Sam Jackson do black face and parade around in full nazi regaliea.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Thanks for the input thus far, folks.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Pretty much for everything everyone else has said.

 

[Max J Power]

I think fans' disappointment in his post-2000 work was so intense it soured them on his work before that. I still like most of his pre-DKSA work. Anyone else?

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

I think a Skrull replaced him after his Daredevil run.

 

[hippie_hunter]

I should also add that the fanboys of the Dark Knight Returns really taint his Batman work IMO.

 

[Manic]

I'd like to pop in and say that I didn't like The Dark Knight Returns.

I liked the Sin City movie, but couldn't bring myself to finish one of the graphic novels afterward because of the terrible art.

The Spirit. Just... no.

 

[Johann Krauss]

I haven't read too much of his comics but I don't like him simply because he completely ruined The Spirit movie. A work which could have been so could, but ego-istic Frank Miller decided the heck with Will Eisner's Spirit. I'm gonna make Sin City 2. Well at least it didn't get an R-rating like people originally thought it would. With all the unneccesary sex and nudity in it. And whats up with making the octopus like that. 1.) You're not supposed to see his face...ever! 2.) He's supposed to be white. 3.) Of all people, why did he have to choose Sam. L. Jackson. and 4.) An african american in a Nazi uniform...that makes since. Also, I'm made that they put neither Ebony White nor Sammy in the movie. And that my friend is why I don't like Frank Miller.

Come back when you've learned how to spell.

His reason for Ebony not being in the film is he said Ebony was a racist characiture (now keep in mind Darwyn Cook made Ebony just a regular black character but hey, Cooks got talent)

That being said...Miller, instead of having a strong black character in his film, denounces it as racist yet turns around and has Sam Jackson do black face and parade around in full nazi regaliea.

How is Jackson in blackface

 

[DJ Kornphlake]

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/dj_kornphlake/shortpacked/20060207****es.png

 

[Everything boy]

Come back when you've learned how to spell.

seriously I think that the whole spelling/grammar complaint thing on an internet forum is idiotic, also for the life of me I can't find more than 2 spelling mistakes in this quoted section, seriously, so I don't think it justified posting

However the other archetypal post I don't like in forums is one that does not have anything to do with the title so here's my thing:

Catwoman/S.Kyle: gotta say the whole prostitute thing brought nothing to the table. Especially if its the "year one" post-crisis reboot. A lot of people have told me "well the only reason it doesn't mean anything is because other writers wanted to take it out so it wasn't referenced that much after that" but I gotta say to that did you really expect people to go with this??

Also: the art. It's weird because it looks like it's getting worse. The really early daredevil stuff works, but it feels like the more confidence he gets the sloppier he thinks he can turn stuff in (to a certain extent: he's right)
It could be just that the inkers just drew all over the older stuff but when he got big they started backing off, either way it's not so good

One thing I was thinking about (especially since watchmen got huge) is that innovation in story-telling formats become used and derivitive after a while, so I don't think that people that read DKR now really get that this is where alot of the motifs and themes that are used today got popular. So it's sad that people who got into comics recently are going to hear that he sucks, and not that he was an innovator.

Big announcement though to everyone on this thread:
If you think Frank Miller is crazy look up Dourdevil by Alan Moore. If you needed another reason why Moore is a genius, he thought what we thought in the early eighties, seriously its crazy, but it's also where he got one of the most crazy phrases in All-star:B&R see if you can find it.

best quote: "Noo Yawk is grim, and gritty, and realistic, there are big black buildings with little white squares on, and water towers, and manholes and lots of other gritty stuff."

I swear whenever I describe Miller's style to someone I have to use the phrase "it's dark, gritty, and realistic" but in a voice like a little kid imagining rorschach.

If someone can find a link to this it will illustrate a lot about the sheer hilarity of all his stuff. (My copy was downloaded a couple of years ago)

Two alsos:
everyone's re-named in this thing, but one of them is the best: Electra turns into Erectra
For those who saw the bad movie: read the bullseye parody and think of Colin Farrel, it's almost like he saw it before they shot and couldn't get it out of his head

 

[K.B.]

How is Jackson in blackface

A characteristic of blackface is the pronounced big white eyes and large pink-red lips. Now go watch Jackson in the first 5 minutes of the Spirit when he is coverd in mud or tar......

See? Thats called blackface.

 

[Gilpesh]

If someone can find a link to this it will illustrate a lot about the sheer hilarity of all his stuff. (My copy was downloaded a couple of years ago)

http://xrayspex.blogspot.com/2008/03/alan-moore-spoofs-frank-miller.html

 

[Captain Useless]

http://xrayspex.blogspot.com/2008/03/alan-moore-spoofs-frank-miller.html

hah, that's priceless t:

(radioactive Ray Charles record, heh heh)

 

[Joker]

A characteristic of blackface is the pronounced big white eyes and large pink-red lips. Now go watch Jackson in the first 5 minutes of the Spirit when he is coverd in mud or tar......

See? Thats called blackface.

But...Jackson is black. And the guy just happens to have large, expressive eyes. That's like calling an asian guy racist against asians for having smaller eyes or something. You're really, really stretching.

 

[K.B.]

No I'm actaully not reaching if you watch the Spirit film (god forbid) and you see the scene in question, you'll know what I mean because it is pretty clear it is blackface.


*while i couldnt find the clip I was looking for I did however find this cool speed drawing video of a dude drawing Sam Jackson and I think it's worth checking out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yw0pSTUW4IU

 

[ScottishFogg]

I used to have a real fondness for Frank Miller. And I still think that when it comes to graphic novels, "Sin City" is still pretty hard to beat. I also have to admit that we might not have movies like "The Dark Knight" if it weren't for his Bat-work in the 80's.

My frustation with him comes from his completely singular mind. The best example of this is for him, there is no Batman outside of his Batman. But his Batman only exists outside of continuity. His Batman is a raving lunatic. His Batman's archnemesis is Superman.

When he sits down to write, he completely ignores every other writer's take on the character. And while, as a writer, he needs to deliver his vision, he needs to respect the other writers and the readers. Instead, if there's a part of the DC mythos that doesn't fit his very limited worldview, he throws it out. As a fan of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman, it's frustrating to say the least.

I have not yet seen The Spirit, but it sounds like everyone's complaints about that movie are the complaints I have about Miller's Bat-work. I think I would like him more if he would stick to his own creations.

 

[Everything boy]

My frustation with him comes from his completely singular mind. The best example of this is for him, there is no Batman outside of his Batman. But his Batman only exists outside of continuity. His Batman is a raving lunatic. His Batman's archnemesis is Superman.

When he sits down to write, he completely ignores every other writer's take on the character. And while, as a writer, he needs to deliver his vision, he needs to respect the other writers and the readers. Instead, if there's a part of the DC mythos that doesn't fit his very limited worldview, he throws it out. As a fan of Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman, it's frustrating to say the least.

I think CoIE caused this (god I wonder how many horrible stories got made because of the whole "ignore continuity" thing.) God becuse he could just as easily say "Hey guys, yeah all you dudes who started reading batman after '87, not matter what, that IS my batman HAHAHAHAHA"

I have not yet seen The Spirit, but it sounds like everyone's complaints about that movie are the complaints I have about Miller's Bat-work. I think I would like him more if he would stick to his own creations.

There were two major things wrong with this movie:
1)NOBODY WANTED IT EXCEPT HIM. Seriously who amongst us wanted this? Who amongst us who has read the spirit wanted this? Nobody wanted this. The only reasons this movie was made was because of Sin City and 300 (seriously don't underestimate 300's influence, if you look a WB's highest grossing movies its #7, paving the way for films like this and watchmen.)
2)THE ADS ARE LIES. Come on, I think this is the biggest sin that can be commited by a studio (lookin at you, guy who made ads for Burn after reading.) I don't think anyone looked at these ads and thought of the type of movie it was. It was advertized as Sin City 2, but was really more like Mystery Men. I think this was a least a little dishonest, and at most the crime of false advertising.

 

[K.B.]

1)NOBODY WANTED IT EXCEPT HIM. Seriously who amongst us wanted this? Who amongst us who has read the spirit wanted this? Nobody wanted this. The only reasons this movie was made was because of Sin City and 300 (seriously don't underestimate 300's influence, if you look a WB's highest grossing movies its #7, paving the way for films like this and watchmen.)

Well I wanted a Spirit movie

Seriously, if you look at Darwyn Cook's run on the title it shows how the characters can be brought into today's world while showing homage to yesteryear without being overtly cheesy. I thought Cook did an amzaing job honoring Eisner and his creations far, FAR more then Miller ever did or ever could.