Fox vs. Sony - who is worse?

[starscream22]

Fox has made 4 great X-Men movies. That's enough to not be the worst, despite FF.

So they're 4 out of 11.

Thank you.

 

[Keehar]

Sony.

Fox haven't produced so much crap that they're in financial trouble.

 

[Marvin]

whose had more chances with the same upper management and producers in place is kinda what all these discussions boil down to.

 

[Grommers]

I find movies that stand the test of the time - movies that I can go back and watch, and enjoy, the differences between a failure and a success, and not get caught up in the hype at the time.

E.G. I loved X-Men when it first came out, I've gone back and watched it, and now think it's terribly done, so many missteps, its ridiculous, it has its merits though as it brought in a lot of opportunity for other super heroes to build on it, but in terms of longevity, it would be a flop.

Where as Iron man 1 although is a little outdated by now..I still enjoy, the story, the introduction etc.

Sony has dropped the ball numerously, and their really has only been spider-man 1 and 2 that I've enjoyed, I had huge expectations for 3, but to this day I have no idea what I watched. Oh and HellBoy, I didn't realize that was Sony,.

Fox on the other hand, I've enjoyed - Xmen:FC, XmenofP, The Wolverine, and Chronicle.

The rest of the movies in my opinion, people are craving for a new "origin" story or a new take on the character. I don't think anyone is just "satisfied" with any of the other movies they've done and none have done justice to the characters used in them.

My vote is going to Fox, however it is the lesser of two evils, but it shows the most promise going forward, now if they could just get rid of Bryan Singer in the x-men universe, I'd be ecstatic.

 

[Flint Marko]

So they're 4 out of 11.

Thank you.

Their misfires are far worse and far more numerous than Sony's.

Came to check out Fox/Sony debate. Found someone projecting that one of the top-grossing movies of all time is a failure. And no, SM3 is not a failure in the grand scheme of things. It's just lame from an artistic standpoint.

Lol yeah, that ignorance sort of derailed the entire thread for a good bit.

 

[NealKenneth]

Came to check out Fox/Sony debate. Found someone proving that one of the top-grossing movies of all time is a failure.

Lol yeah, that ignorance sort of derailed the entire thread for a good bit.

Yeah guys, let's just keep treating one measure of success like it's the only one that matters. We wouldn't want to think critically or analyze anything beyond a surface glance. That might put too much strain on our brains!

Wait, I just realized that we could settle this entire debate with a little math. Just take the total box office gross of each studio and see which one is bigger...whoever has the bigger gross is better because box office gross is the only thing that determines success!

 

[Son of Coul]

Yeah guys, let's just keep treating one measure of success like it's the only one that matters. We wouldn't want to think critically or analyze anything beyond a surface glance. That might put too much strain on our brains!

Wait, I just realized that we could settle this entire debate with a little math. Just take the total box office gross of each studio and see which one is bigger...whoever has the bigger gross is better because box office gross is the only thing that determines success!

No, apparently it's only home media sales. Exceptionally good home media sales, rather than super-exceptionally good home media sales. We can just ignore BO, critic's reviews, positive WOM, and consistently positive online user ratings from various popular sites.

Hope you're wiping your tears, Mr. Feige! Ya made a flop that was only the 8th best-selling DVD of 2013. Shoulda been 7th.

 

[NealKenneth]

No, apparently it's only home media sales. Exceptionally good home media sales, rather than super-exceptionally good home media sales. We can just ignore BO, critic's reviews, positive WOM, and consistently positive online user ratings from various popular sites.

Hope you're wiping your tears, Mr. Feige! Ya made a flop that was only the 8th best-selling DVD of 2013. Shoulda been 7th.

Nope, Iron Man 3 didn't just drop from second-highest grossing film to 8th best-selling on DVD (which would already be under-performing). It dropped from second to TWENTY-eighth. Check your numbers: http://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/packaged-media-sales/2013

Other than that, it got a 62 on Metacritic (wow, the critics were swooning!) and word-of-mouth about the film was mostly about the controversial Mandarin Twist. Most people like the scene but hated the overall effect it had on the film, so I don't see why you would say the film had positive WOM. It was mixed at best. Finally, user ratings are usually attained just after people have seen the film (aka before they've had time to think about it.) A much better indicator of audience reaction is home media sales which, again, the film bombed on.

 

[First Avenger]

Iron Man 3 bombed. I'm still trying to understand this sentence.

 

[NealKenneth]

Iron Man 3 bombed. I'm still trying to understand this sentence.

...on home media sales (sentences tend to make more sense if you actually read the whole thing.) Let me dive into the numbers to show you what I mean.

Frozen grossed about 2% less than IM3 at the US box-office and sold about 18.4 millions units on home media. Iron Man 3 sold about 2.7 million. Again, the two were nearly equal at box office but one went on to outsell the other by a factor of OVER SIX. Does this clear things up for anyone?

 

[First Avenger]

You also talked about bad audience and critics reactions. I remember X3 selling millions of DVD copies,so that makes it a beloved movie,right?

 

[Son of Coul]

You also talked about bad audience and critics reactions. I remember X3 selling millions of DVD copies,so that makes it a beloved movie,right?

Based on the sacred home media sales, Breaking Dawn Part 2 is a much more successful overall film than IM3.

Also it turns out that a 62 on Metacritic isn't "generally positive" as the site itself claims, it's a failure. Critics have to do cartwheels for it not to be a failure.

Look Kenneth, I'm not saying IM3 is an IM1, Avengers, or even GOTG-like success in terms of longevity/praise in the public eye, but to call it a failure based solely on underperforming home media sales while shooing off any other argument is just silly. I mean surely you know this, right?

And WOM is different for everyone I suppose. Outside of a select few fansites, I talked to a looot of people in person about it and heard near nothing but praise, many citing it as the best of the trilogy. I know you'd constitute that as people coming off the high of the movie, but that is positive WOM. And as far as fan ratings go, don't you think the overly positive ones would be counterbalanced by the overly steaming comic fans coming out of the theater spamming petty votes? I mean come on now.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Nope, Iron Man 3 didn't just drop from second-highest grossing film to 8th best-selling on DVD (which would already be under-performing). It dropped from second to TWENTY-eighth. Check your numbers: http://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/packaged-media-sales/2014

Other than that, it got a 62 on Metacritic (wow, the critics were swooning!) and word-of-mouth about the film was mostly about the controversial Mandarin Twist. Most people like the scene but hated the overall effect it had on the film, so I don't see why you would say the film had positive WOM. It was mixed at best. Finally, user ratings are usually attained just after people have seen the film (aka before they've had time to think about it.) A much better indicator of audience reaction is home media sales which, again, the film bombed on.

Okay. That data is from 2014. IM3 had already been out for months! Frozen didn't even become available on DVD until 2014. That data, therefore, is irrelevant.

As for Word of Mouth, that's clearly subjective. I've personally yet to meet person in real life that didn't love IM3.

 

[NealKenneth]

Okay. That data is from 2014. IM3 had already been out for months! Frozen didn't even become available on DVD until 2014. That data, therefore, is irrelevant.

You're right, I accidentally linked to the wrong year, which you would have realized if you had bothered to check the data. Here's the right link: http://www.the-numbers.com/home-market/packaged-media-sales/2013 I'll update my original post.

 

[Grommers]

I feel you guys are arguing with statistics that contradict either other, therefore no one wins, providing an endless loop. I think if you use "numbers" you could say the Transformers is a massive success. That's from the "business" side of things. However - if you were to ask a more informed "transformer" fanboy, who knows the lore etc, would look at these as a failure...this is more the "creative" side of things.

IM3 too me wasn't a failure - a failure to me is something that didn't hit it's numbers, and was ALSO a terrible movie. IM3 wasn't terrible, and it hit it's numbers, its personally my favorite out of the three, but regardless of that - a failure would be a movie that didn't hit both ends of this stick. You could argue it was a "neutral" or an "okay" (It's like getting a "D-" rating in a class, it's still a pass - it's just not a "great" mark, but it isn't completely terrible, because you got the credit.


Now, with this fantastic four trailer out, I have quite a bit of hope for this...so lets hope that Fox does it right! (or this one sony) sigh!

 

[Reef Goddess]

Fox is a multitude of reasons, though Sony's not much better.

 

[MakeMinesMarvel]

Without Fox/Sony Marvel Comics wouldn't even exist. That was all we had on this website ten years ago. Bizzaro World

 

[NealKenneth]

You also talked about bad audience and critics reactions. I remember X3 selling millions of DVD copies,so that makes it a beloved movie,right?

Let's compare the two. Last Stand scored a 58 on Metacritic, only a few points less than IM3's 62. They had basically equal opening weekends as percentage of total gross (the best indicator of immediate word-of-mouth we have, source: http://boxofficemojo.com/franchises...=marvelcomics.htm&sort=perc&order=DESC&p=.htm).

Fast forward to home media releases, and Last Stand sold more units in the first week than IM3 has sold total. I don't know how else to explain this...people buy films they like when they come out on home media and they aren't buying Iron Man 3. An extraordinarily high percentage of people who saw the film are looking at the DVD/Blu-ray boxes for it and thinking "Well, I don't want to see that again!" That's significant data when we're determining if the film was a success!

Also it turns out that a 62 on Metacritic isn't "generally positive" as the site itself claims, it's a failure. Critics have to do cartwheels for it not to be a failure.

The closest MCU film score we have to Iron Man 3 is The Incredible Hulk. It got 61 versus IM3's 62, but you don't hear people saying The Incredible Hulk succeeded with critics.

Look Kenneth, I'm not saying IM3 is an IM1, Avengers, or even GOTG-like success in terms of longevity/praise in the public eye, but to call it a failure based solely on underperforming home media sales while shooing off any other argument is just silly. I mean surely you know this, right?

Even if the lack of home media sales was really the only thing I was looking at, I would be raising my eyebrows. So would the executives at Marvel. But I am also analyzing response from critics, response from fans as compared to other films in the MCU (where we find the awkward fact that the second-highest grossing ranks eighth most-beloved...almost like total box office gross has little to do with actual success with the audience...hmm), hard data for WOM, and logical problems with the narrative that IM3 was a success (for example, where is the IM4 and IM5 that RDJ and Shane Black expressed interest in making just a few months and weeks before the film premiered?) The weight of all this evidence is why I am certain Iron Man 3 was a failure.

As for "shooing off any other argument", well, I haven't really had to do that because the only argument anyone has been using so far has been total box office gross. It's almost like that's the only metric by which you could claim the film was a success....

And WOM is different for everyone I suppose. Outside of a select few fansites, I talked to a looot of people in person about it and heard near nothing but praise, many citing it as the best of the trilogy. I know you'd constitute that as people coming off the high of the movie, but that is positive WOM. And as far as fan ratings go, don't you think the overly positive ones would be counterbalanced by the overly steaming comic fans coming out of the theater spamming petty votes? I mean come on now.

I took that scenario into consideration, which is why I use opening weekend as percentage of total gross for WOM data (linked above.) Basically, a higher percentage indicates a lower percentage of people saw it more than once or recommended it to others. Here's the ten Marvel films that had the worst word-of-mouth, for those too lazy to click the link.

Punisher: War Zone
Elektra
X-Men Origins: Wolverine
Hulk
The Amazing Spider-Man 2
Spider-Man 3
Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer
X-Men: The Last Stand
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance
Iron Man 3

That's damn accurate. So accurate, in fact, that our friend Flint Marko pretended that his opinion could actually be changed by it, if only we could find "other factors."

Your box office analysis could potentially be damning if it was coupled with other factors that showed the movie was indeed a "failure"

Mind you, that was BEFORE we found out that the unsold home media units of Iron Man 3 could fill a football stadium.

Anyway, you're right about the perspective of WOM being different for each individual. In my experience, of the dozen or so people I spoke to in-person after seeing the film, the best responses I got were lukewarm. Most disliked the film. The person I was it with at midnight release was so bored he nearly fell asleep. I've never heard anyone say it was better than the first film in the trilogy, online or otherwise. I guess you'd be the first if you're going to make that claim.

What I've been trying to explain in the hours I've put into researching this is that Iron Man 3's box office return has little to do with whether or not it succeeded. Hell, I'm certain even The Incredible Hulk would have crossed a billion at the box-office if it was the follow-up to The Avengers, but nobody's left wondering why that one didn't get a sequel...

The only reason people still think Iron Man 3 was a success is that it came out less than two years ago. It'll take time for the Iron man fanboys to come around. I doubt the Shane Black fanboys ever will.

 

[Son of Coul]

Good lord, this argument is so silly. I'm done. Your opinion wins.

 

[JJmelo]

Based off of the last few films put out by both studios I would say Sony is worse. First Class and Days of Future Past were great where I though ASM2 was just entertaining. Plus based off of the new Fantastic Four trailer it looks like they have turned things around in terms of their comic properties. I'm looking forward to it.

Here's the trailer and my full thoughts if people are interested.

https://otlnews.wordpress.com/2015/...ur-trailer-is-here-and-it-truly-is-fantastic/

 

[mace1]

I thought the new fantastic four trailer was really good.

 

[CaptainWagner]

As for "shooing off any other argument", well, I haven't really had to do that because the only argument anyone has been using so far has been total box office gross. It's almost like that's the only metric by which you could claim the film was a success....I took that scenario into consideration, which is why I use opening weekend as percentage of total gross for WOM data (linked above.) Basically, a higher percentage indicates a lower percentage of people saw it more than once or recommended it to others. Here's the ten Marvel films that had the worst word-of-mouth, for those too lazy to click the link.

Punisher: War Zone
Elektra
X-Men Origins: Wolverine
Hulk
The Amazing Spider-Man 2
Spider-Man 3
Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer
X-Men: The Last Stand
Ghost Rider: Spirit of Vengeance
Iron Man 3

You want to talk about public opinion, here's the CinemaScore ratings for those movies:

Punisher: War Zone: B-
Elektra: B
Origins: B+
Hulk: B-
TASM2: B+
Spiderman 3: B+
Silver Surfer: B
X3: A-
Spirit of Vengeance: C+
Iron Man 3: A

One of these things is not like the other.....



But honestly, how did we even get on this argument in this thread?

 

[kedrell]

I thought the new fantastic four trailer was really good.

I'd say it's the worst looking trailer for a big budget superhero film that I've seen in the last 5 years, easily.

 

[NealKenneth]

You want to talk about public opinion, here's the CinemaScore ratings for those movies:

Punisher: War Zone: B-
Elektra: B
Origins: B+
Hulk: B-
TASM2: B+
Spiderman 3: B+
Silver Surfer: B
X3: A-
Spirit of Vengeance: C+
Iron Man 3: A

One of these things is not like the other.....

The best new data we've had in pages! It's so refreshing to have people source something besides total box office gross to try to prove Iron Man 3 was a success. Anyway, you're right that Iron Man 3 scored high on CinemaScore for that list, but that's actually even more evidence that it failed. Take a look at this chart: https://pmcdeadline2.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/cinemascore-box-office-table-updated-sheet-1.png It demonstrates the average multiple of opening weekend that a film is expected to gross based on CinemaScore. Since Iron Man 3 scored an "A", that means it's total gross should have been about 3.6 times what it made opening weekend. It actually made about 2.35, meaning it made less than two-thirds what it should have based on its CinemaScore.

Stated another way, most films that only make 2.35 their opening weekend score a D+

But it's misleading to say IM3 is different from every other entry on the list. X-Men 3: Last Stand is almost identical. It scored an A-, meaning it should have made about 3.5 times the gross of its opening weekend. It actually made about 2.3, meaning it either had a shortfall of over a third or should have scored a solid D. Either way, it's the same thing that happened to Iron Man 3. Both films were failures.

But honestly, how did we even get on this argument in this thread?

I'm willing to dig through articles and data for hours to respond to any reasonable argument, but I'm not willing to go back and figure out how this started.

 

[NealKenneth]

I loved the trailers for Man of Steel and I'm getting the same sort of vibe from Fantastic Four. That sorta worries me because I thought Man of Steel was dreadful, so I'm not planning to see FF unless I hear good things from friends.

By the way, is 820,000 views good or bad for a trailer released about seven hours ago?