Frank Miller's Holy Terror Batman

[theMan-Bat]

About what I'd expect from each of them, I suppose. And Moore's right, as one might expect he would be.

Really? You think Moore is right? This isn't about the Iraq war. Can we stop calling Bush's Iraq war the War on Terror? It isn’t. I agree with Miller. I don't have a problem with Batman beating the living crap out of Osama Bin Laden. Nothing wrong with wanting to see the terrorists who killed 3,000 people get their ass kicked.

 

[RobC]

I don't think this thread is neccesarily the place to be discussing George Bush's policy on pre-emptive attacks.

But since it's here, here's my thoughts.

Basically, the Iraq war was sold to most of the public as 'Saddam is a very dangerous man, and has nukes, so the world isn't safe. Therefore we've got to take him out (of power)'

Now whilst I agree with this 100%, it is now the truth that no weapons of mass destruction were found within Iraq. At all. Now the debate on whether Iraq is better off without a tyranical dictator could rage all day, so i'll just say, and this has been my position for years, that although Saddam Hussein did indeed need to be removed from power, the pretext of invading because of a specific threat, is now found to be a lie. Therefore the war is unjustified in the original pretext.

Please don't flame me to death...

 

[batman_gr]

nobody should flame you to death.
the whole world knew about the whole weapon thing. only america didn't. I swear there are things about this war that americans probably don't know at all. We heard the news first in Europe without any censorship.You heard them in terms of propaganda and censorship. Nobody told America that the war isn't working out quite good for them . It took almost 2 years untill you learned the truth,and I have a feeling there are more for you to know. Now I'm not an expert neither do I know a great deal of things about it, but it's sad this whole war thing. It turned out to be a new Vietnam for America. I'm not sorry for Bush I actually hate him. I feel sorry for all the dead soldiers and their families. I never cried so hard as I did on "Farheneit 11/9" when that mother read the last letter of her son before he died. Thousands died. For what? For America (and when I say America I mean the government and not the people) to get her hands on oil sources and have the monopoly on "black gold".

Anyway, sorry for the long post, let's just keep this on FM - HTB. It's good to see him back on the Batman franchise (scr^w ASB&R) but I have a feeling he did it because of the number of zeros in his check. I'll buy it, but he's not doing it for the love of it. That's how I feel.
Sorry for the "a-thousand-miles" post.

 

[Aristotle]

Really? You think Moore is right? This isn't about the Iraq war. Can we stop calling Bush's Iraq war the War on Terror? It isn’t. I agree with Miller. I don't have a problem with Batman beating the living crap out of Osama Bin Laden. Nothing wrong with wanting to see the terrorists who killed 3,000 people get their ass kicked.

It's simplistic. It incorrectly suggests that the best response to 9/11 should be beating the crap out of someone. And that's just a stupid, childish, wrongheaded idea. The best response to 9/11 is to first and foremost wake up and realize that our decades of abusing the Middle East and Latin America are starting to bear fruit. We are reaping what we have sown, and if we don't take steps to change our foreign policies, and indeed our selfish, greedy way of life, we are going to see a lot more angry people doing a lot more angry things.

And after we work on figuring out why people are doing these things, and shift ourselves so that there is less of an impetus for them, that's when it's time to beat the crap out of people that are still doing it. That's when we'll have separated out the true hatemongers from the desperate.

 

[theMan-Bat]

It's simplistic. It incorrectly suggests that the best response to 9/11 should be beating the crap out of someone. And that's just a stupid, childish, wrongheaded idea. The best response to 9/11 is to first and foremost wake up and realize that our decades of abusing the Middle East and Latin America are starting to bear fruit. We are reaping what we have sown, and if we don't take steps to change our foreign policies, and indeed our selfish, greedy way of life, we are going to see a lot more angry people doing a lot more angry things.

I have no sympathy for al-Qaeda. Osama Bin Laden has shown himself to be nothing more than a murderous dog. The Islamic extremists hate us for who we are. They hate our culture, our freedoms. Americans are told to convert to Islam or "suffer the consequences."

And after we work on figuring out why people are doing these things, and shift ourselves so that there is less of an impetus for them, that's when it's time to beat the crap out of people that are still doing it. That's when we'll have separated out the true hatemongers from the desperate.

Al-Qaeda attacks America as "the Great Satan" who must be destroyed for "polluting the world with its pornography." Al-Qaeda says Americans must convert to Islam, and follow the strict Muslim dress code, "Decide today, because today could be your last day."

 

[JokerLedger]

I have no sympathy for al-Qaeda. Osama Bin Laden has shown himself to be nothing more than a murderous dog. The Islamic extremists hate us for who we are. They hate our culture, our freedoms. Americans are told to convert to Islam or "suffer the consequences."



Al-Qaeda attacks America as "the Great Satan" who must be destroyed for "polluting the world with its pornography." Al-Qaeda says Americans must convert to Islam, and follow the strict Muslim dress code, "Decide today, because today could be your last day."

I've got to disagree with you. They don't hate us because of who we are, what our culture is, and because of our freedoms. They hate us because WE are over there in their country. Think about it this way... would Americans like it if the Chinese occupied our country and told us what to do? Hellno.

 

[theMan-Bat]

I've got to disagree with you. They don't hate us because of who we are, what our culture is, and because of our freedoms.

Al-Qaeda says otherwise.

http://arabracismislamofascism.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/islamists-convert-or-die/

Osama Bin Laden believes that he has a divine right from God to impose his will on others. Osama Bin Laden believes that the West must convert to his extreme version of Islam, by force if necessary. He has called for a Holy War against the U.S. He has called on all Muslims to kill any Americans and Jews that they can.

 

[bestever23]

^ that's why I can't wait to see batman beat the crap out of them

 

[Aristotle]

I have no sympathy for al-Qaeda.

Not asking you to. But ask yourself this: if a massive cultural force had forced itself upon your nation and taken it over; had driven down wages and wrecked the economy; had forced a drastically different culture upon your people; had installed dictators into the government; had pillaged everything worth taking from you and your people...what would you do?

On second thought, don't answer that. I don't want to hear the mouth of comfort try to answer the problem of desperation.

Osama Bin Laden has shown himself to be nothing more than a murderous dog.

A murderous dog that we made. People like you thought he was the cat's damned meow back when he was on your leash, fighting the other infidels. And then he turns on us and does exactly what anyone with a mind could have predicted, and we're surprised?

The Islamic extremists hate us for who we are. They hate our culture, our freedoms.

You're so ignorant it's almost not worth trying to educate you. They don't "hate our freedoms." They hate us because we've been ruining their nations for close to a century.

 

[Aristotle]

Al-Qaeda says otherwise.

http://arabracismislamofascism.wordpress.com/2007/03/12/islamists-convert-or-die/

I see you bothered to do unbiased research.

Osama Bin Laden believes that he has a divine right from God to impose his will on others. Osama Bin Laden believes that the West must convert to his extreme version of Islam, by force if necessary. He has called for a Holy War against the U.S. He has called on all Muslims to kill any Americans and Jews that they can.

Osama bin Laden is a crazy man who only got as far as he did because we legitimized him. The people who actually do the dirty deeds are the ones I'm talking about. They don't give a **** if Americans have freedoms or not. They want their homes back. They want their families to not live in extreme poverty and fear. They want, as chilling and sick as it sounds, to live in peace, just like we do. And they're doing the exact same things we've been doing for a century to achieve that.

 

[Carmine Falcone]

How long has Miller been working on this? I want to read this ****er.

 

[Punch]

Batman should be allowed to beat up terrorists. It's not Batman going to Iraq, it's Batman fighting terrorists who are trying to blow up Gotham. It's that simple.

 

[The Only Woj]

I see you bothered to do unbiased research.

Osama bin Laden is a crazy man who only got as far as he did because we legitimized him. The people who actually do the dirty deeds are the ones I'm talking about. They don't give a **** if Americans have freedoms or not. They want their homes back. They want their families to not live in extreme poverty and fear. They want, as chilling and sick as it sounds, to live in peace, just like we do. And they're doing the exact same things we've been doing for a century to achieve that.

Depends what you mean by 'they'. There are groups IN the United States that advocate Sharia law. What about all the loons that take to the streets when someone writes an article or, gasp, a comic strip that belittles Islam? Or students in Islamic schools in NYC that, when interviewed, advocated suicide bombings as acceptable martyrdom and that those who do would be fast-tracked to Paradise? Maybe they're in the minority, but that doesn't mean there are a lot of people out there who do blame America for their problems in their country. Or for standing by Israel since they want that land back (to fufil their end-time prophecy). Have you ever look at the numbers of those (in the Middle East) who even believe Bin Laden planned 9/11? it's like 20%. Many think it was the US or a secret plot by, gasp again, Israeli agents as to push the US to war.

We made Osama popular just like we made the Columbine killers popular, so it's not shocking for people to want to emulate him.

As for Iraq, we shouldn't be policing the world. There are a lot of dictators out there that probably should be knocked off. But we had bad intelligence. The blame shouldn't be on Bush. It should be on the intelligence agencies. They botched the intel leading up to 9/11. They botched Iraq. And now they can't be trusted for sure on Iran ... though, knocking off their leaders wouldn't be as horrible as you might think, since the people are far more moderate than their government.

 

[theMan-Bat]

Not asking you to. But ask yourself this: if a massive cultural force had forced itself upon your nation and taken it over; had driven down wages and wrecked the economy; had forced a drastically different culture upon your people; had installed dictators into the government; had pillaged everything worth taking from you and your people...what would you do?

I wouldn't fly planes into buildings killing 3,000 innocent civilians.

A murderous dog that we made.

The boneheads in charge of the Reagan administration can be blamed for supplying arms to Osama bin Laden and other Arab volunteers in 1986, however, we can't be blamed for Osama bin Laden's terrorist actions in the name of Islam and his radical Muslim beliefs. No one is controlling Osama bin Laden, he is acting out of his own free will.

You're so ignorant it's almost not worth trying to educate you.

It isn't news to me that poverty and a feeling of powerlessness in the region helps the recruitment for al-Qaeda. Osama bin Laden, like Adolf Hitler before him, takes advantage of the poor and hungry in the region to recruit, seduce, control and gain power.

They don't "hate our freedoms."

Yes, they do. They hate our "culture of pornography" and say we must convert to Islam.

They hate us because we've been ruining their nations for close to a century.

No excuse for flying planes into buildings killing 3,000 innocent civilians and using children for suicide bombings on innocent civilians in the name of Islam.

 

[souloffire]

I've got to disagree with you. They don't hate us because of who we are, what our culture is, and because of our freedoms. They hate us because WE are over there in their country. Think about it this way... would Americans like it if the Chinese occupied our country and told us what to do? Hellno.

I wasn't aware that Al-Qaeda had a country.

 

[Aristotle]

Depends what you mean by 'they'. There are groups IN the United States that advocate Sharia law.

And there are groups IN the United States that similarly advocate a twisted version of Old Testament law. Not really that different.

What about all the loons that take to the streets when someone writes an article or, gasp, a comic strip that belittles Islam?

Satirizing religion is a dangerous game. It's best done by a member of the religion. Otherwise, it can come off as very mean-spirited. George Carlin is hard on religions in general, but he's hardest on Catholicism, because he was born a Catholic. The guys on the Axis of Evil Comedy Tour brilliantly make fun of Islam. David Cross and about a jillion other Jewish comedians give Judaism a hard time. But when George Carlin starts making Jewish jokes, that's gonna taste a little sour. Kinda like how white people can't say n****r.

Furthermore, making fun of Islam in a prominent newspaper at a time when Islam is in a state of great turmoil and violent outrage is just a stupid idea. Especially when a lot of that turmoil is taking place in the country where the cartoon was published. That's like Israeli soldiers running around jerking off on the Qu'ran. Doesn't solve anything.

Or students in Islamic schools in NYC that, when interviewed, advocated suicide bombings as acceptable martyrdom and that those who do would be fast-tracked to Paradise?

Well, I certainly think they're wrong and misguided, but the fact of the matter is that this brand of Islam took root around the world because of the abuse that the West heaped upon predominantly Islamic nations. We can diffuse this brand of Islam by repairing that damage.

Maybe they're in the minority, but that doesn't mean there are a lot of people out there who do blame America for their problems in their country.

They blame America for the problems in their country because America is at the root of those problems. We prop up the dictators. We pillage their wealth. We contribute to their oppression.

Or for standing by Israel since they want that land back (to fufil their end-time prophecy).

The Christians only want Israel to fulfill their end-time prophecy, and that's why America supports Israel. Furthermore, most Palestinians actually just want back the homes that were taken from their grandparents. There are so many refugee families around the world that Amman, Jordan is now populated by more Palestinians than Jordanians. Israeli commandos forced Palestinians to leave at gunpoint, promising them that they could return when it was safe. The Palestinians are still waiting for that promise to be made good upon.

We made Osama popular just like we made the Columbine killers popular, so it's not shocking for people to want to emulate him.

It's actually really different. We made Osama popular by funding his war. And we made him even more popular by giving people a reason to be angry at us. Desperate people do desperate things, and that often means stupid things, and the stupid thing that the desperate people in the Middle East did was throw in with a guy who's just as bad as we are.

There are a lot of dictators out there that probably should be knocked off.

Which we put into place, almost to a man.

But we had bad intelligence. The blame shouldn't be on Bush. It should be on the intelligence agencies. They botched the intel leading up to 9/11. They botched Iraq. And now they can't be trusted for sure on Iran ... though, knocking off their leaders wouldn't be as horrible as you might think, since the people are far more moderate than their government.

The intel agencies were pressured to give the President what he wanted. They were wrong to give in to that pressure, but he was wrong to apply it. He and his goons wanted a reason to attack Iraq since before he was even the President, and that's well-documented.

 

[Aristotle]

I wouldn't fly planes into buildings killing 3,000 innocent civilians.

You would lash out violently. It's obvious, because that's your reaction to the 9/11 attacks. When someone ****s with your country, you fight back. That's what they're doing, too. And guess what? The both of you are dead wrong.

It isn't news to me that poverty and a feeling of powerlessness in the region helps the recruitment for al-Qaeda. Osama bin Laden, like Adolf Hitler before him, takes advantage of the poor and hungry in the region to recruit, seduce, control and gain power.

Poverty doesn't just materialize. That's poverty that we created. You and I, by living as well as we do and not working to change the system, maintain it every day.

No excuse for flying planes into buildings killing 3,000 innocent civilians and using children for suicide bombings on innocent civilians in the name of Islam.

And those things aren't an excuse for bombing Iraqi and Afghan civilians, but we did it anyway, didn't we?

 

[JokerLedger]

I wasn't aware that Al-Qaeda had a country.

I wasn't aware I wa sbeing vague. Oops.

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

..........

 

[Doctor Baywatch]

Poverty doesn't just materialize. That's poverty that we created. You and I, by living as well as we do and not working to change the system, maintain it every day.

Are you saying that poverty around the world was and is created by the USA or the "west"

Those terrorist leaders are all rich and could use their for their own people's benefit. But no. They don't.

why do almost all terrorists from the islamic countries?

 

[theMan-Bat]

You would lash out violently. It's obvious, because that's your reaction to the 9/11 attacks. When someone ****s with your country, you fight back. That's what they're doing, too. And guess what? The both of you are dead wrong.

Can we let the al-Qaeda terrorists go free? Of course not. The terrorists who killed 3,000 innocent civilians can't be allowed to be free to attack us again.

And those things aren't an excuse for bombing Iraqi and Afghan civilians, but we did it anyway, didn't we?

Bush and his cohorts (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice - the whole lot) should be impeached, tried convicted and imprisoned for war crimes over the Iraq war. The Bush administration lied about the threat Saddam Hussein posed to the world.

 

[Go God Go!]

What the ****?

Shut up, all of you. Politics belong in the bedroom, along with your father's gay sex partners and your mother's vibrator.

 

[Superhobo]

Political discussion is fun, though - for us, the spectators, especially, because we get to watch a spectacle equal to two armless wrestlers just going at it.

 

[Nepenthes]

Shut up, all of you. Politics belong in the bedroom,

Not really. Look at the title of this thread. This discussion was always going to happen and it's going to continue for a long time. So it should.

along with your father's gay sex partners and your mother's vibrator.

it's your jack off fantasies that really don't belong in here

 

[Aristotle]

Are you saying that poverty around the world was and is created by the USA or the "west"

That's exactly what I'm saying. Do your research.

Those terrorist leaders are all rich and could use their for their own people's benefit. But no. They don't.

Yes, they're bastards too, but we can't control them. We can only control our own actions. And we've been systematically wrecking cultures in the Middle East for decades, and stealing from the people. Time to take responsibility for what we have wrought, and make it right.

why do almost all terrorists from the islamic countries?

Because Islamic countries are the ones we've been ruining. And the violent response is wrong, but on the other hand, look at how well the nonviolent response has worked for Latin Americans. We've done the same things to their countries that we've done the Middle East, and the response of the Mexican and Guatemalan populations has largely been to just come to America and try to do honest work for an honest wage and make back some of the money that we stole. And what do they get in return? They get deported, they get beaten up, they get murdered (and the cops never investigate the murder of an illegal), and they get vilified. So clearly the nonviolent response to Western abuse doesn't work. Is it any surprise that some of our victims have chosen violence?