Discussion in 'The Comics' started by CrimeMaster!, Apr 7, 2006.
Is Flonk a Marvel plant or just trying to piss people off?
TMOB, good point about directives from the higher ups.
Eh, he's entitled to his opinion as long as he's arguin' against somethin' that was actually SAID.
I have been waiting a long time for one to come along, it's not going to happen whilst 'Scorpem' is around I fear.
TMOB, OtepApe, what's the matter?
The brilliant Scorpem isn't good enough?
You know, I was reading the thread over at comicboards.com where this spoiler was posted and naturally Peter David is pissed. In fact, when he blasted the guy for posting the revealation about Uncle Ben, he cited how the word has gotten out to comicbookresources.com as well. And since I was the one who posted the news over there, I felt so guilty that I ended up writing a letter of saying I was sorry. Maybe it's because I could sympathize with him as a writer. Maybe it was because my initial shock over the news has worn down somewhat. Even so, I still felt I owed him an apology.
But I still think bringing Uncle Ben back alive and well, even if it is only temporary, seems like a really bad move on his part, IMHO (at least in ASM #500 when JMS did it, he was still dead, technically). After all, we've had Jason Todd, Bucky, and now this? Hey, there's an idea...a comic book story in which Death itself has died and everybody who was dead comes back and no one can die, just to show how absurd the revolving door of death in comics have actually become.
This needs to be reposted on every page of this thread:
I really wish that What If..? would come back, so that there would be an outlet for this type of lamebrained storyline other than the major Spidey titles.
Goddamn what a little *****
Maybe my favorite What If? Story other that What If? Starring Spider Man!? (What If? 105) and What If? Punisher killed Daredevil (What If? 26)
What an original idea David!
^ That was a good story. Actually, that whole one-shot What If series was quite good.
Well, to be fair, I can sympathize, and did apologize to him for playing my part. Even so, the internet is not entirely to blame for ruining comics. The writers usually do that themselves.
BTW, just how many What If Uncle Ben was alive stories have we had anyway? I mean, along with the one you posted, you can also count ASM #500 with Uncle Ben's apperance, Spider-Man: House of M, and now this one--all of which happened within roughly TWO YEARS TIME.
Meh, I always though the ones released after Volume 1 ended were way too small to tell such stories. They always went really really quickly by and never really got into the whole What If? Idea (With the few exceptions of the ones mentioned above, and The one where the Punisher hooks up with the Symbiote)
He also showed up in Paul Jenkins last issue of Spectacular
Well, technically, that was Peter talking to himself and possibly imagining Ben was there, but yeah...
BTW. The What If with Punisher bonding with the symbiote just kicked so much ass.
Agreed, his "bullets", wings, and claws before Carnage was even dreamed of was very very cool
Unfortunatly Marvel ripped that idea off me along with the Thunderbolts
Peter David does seem to cry foul alot. A bit sensitive me thinks.
That's why he loves to go to Comic Boards. They kiss his ass like it was Angelina Jolie's lips. And woe be unto anyone who actually disagrees with him.
The following post contains expressions of disgust, frustration, and citations of rampant stupidity. Reader discretion is advised.
Damn. That's the entirety of my response in a nutshell. Damn.
Due to my heavy workload my next post was supposed to be another round in an engaging philosophical debate with Stillanerd. Now I pop in to find this. This to-be-expected slap in the face to Marvel's legacy, Spidey's history, and the hundreds of readers that have been the backbone of the Spider-Man franchise that grew from those 12 cent comics way back when -- into the billion dollar juggernaut it is today. I guess I should throw in a "should this be what it seems" to placate the "It's may not even be the real Ben" and "Wait until you read the issue" crowd. Never say I'm unreasonable.
Now, as for the Marvel execs, I'm disgusted with your fanboy pandering to writers who:
a) Have a 'name' that can draw headlines in Wizard magazine and on Newsarama.com
b) Had a successful-in-syndication T.V. show, or genre specific motion picture releases in the early '90s
c) Had a hit run on a comic series [or stand-alone] in the last 15 years.
Your writers have developed a self righteous attitude towards readers, the source material, and fundamental elements of what defines comics in general. This attitude is either cultivated or encouraged from the top down.
A lot has been said about how traditional fans of comics have hurt the industry. We've "poisoned the well for new readers with online diatribes, caused characters to stagnate by hating change, and refused to grow up because we don't understand the difference between 'good stories' and 'nostalgic tales.'"
You want the ironic truth, Marvel management? You're the fanboys.
You are the ones who have gotten so hot under the collar over the prospects of working with creators like JMS, that you've decided his version of the nature and life of a character like Gwen Stacy trumps the basic understanding of her, penned by writers acclaimed for their contributions to the art of comics, who laid the foundation you stand on -- because: "OMG! It's the guy who made Babylon 5!" (Excerpted from an after hours meeting in Marvel's E-I-C's office)*
You've concluded that the idea of Spider-Man being the product of ancient mystical lineage is equal or greater to the pre-2005 origin of the character, known worldwide, that borders on modern mythology -- because: "I mean, he even wrote some episodes of He-Man! How f**** cool is that?!" (Excerpted from cell phone recordings of Joey Quesada)*
Peter David is allowed to take up pages of a paid literary work to continue his online debate with comic book fans -- because: "Dude. He wrote the death of Jean De Wolfe, aaand he can get us at least a couple of write ups per month in the comic mags." (Excerpted from an Outlook Express account on a Marvel Executive's discarded laptop)*
Spider-Man can be brutally ripped to shreds on panel, with no thought to the thousands of children who follow the character's exploits, or his fans that don't hail from the "Mortal Kombat" school of pop culture -- because: "We maintain the highest quality in talent across the entertainment industry. The writer/director of House Party, for example, has been among our staple of creators in recent times." (Taken from a Marvel press release recently discovered on Yahoo.com)*
In all seriousness I take issue. I absolutely take issue with the predominate policies at Marvel comics over the last few years. We're lambasted for not desiring change, but it's OK for your writers to change practically every defining aspect of a character? We're poisoning the atmosphere in the industry with our online messages, but it's OK for writers to use the actual stories to launch counterpoints in real life arguments? You can't see why we have a problem with people making, according to their own comments, permanent changes to certain aspects of a character's mythos -- when those in question have a hard time keeping track of whether May Parker is Peter's Aunt or his Mother; better yet, when they want to retcon his Aunt into being his Mother?
You know what your problem is Marvel? What makes you different than the caretakers of the legacies of other literary works and tomes throughout the ages? It's that there is no respect in your halls for the work that established the characters you control and the offices you control them from -- or the spirit of what thoses works hoped to convey. Who's asking you to hold by every statement written in every issue that ever existed? I haven't seen such a person anywhere. It's when you trod on the spirit, premise and context of Spider-Man's stories, for example, that you make yourself appear to be self righteous opportunists who are more interested in writing your John Hancock on the character than actually telling good, character driven stories.
Part Two: The Amazing Nobody
Peter Parker, a lonely but brilliant teen was bitten by an accidentally radiated spider at an exhibition he attended due to his love of science.
Except he wasn't. Peter Parker, a lonely teen with an uncanny potential to be a hunter in an age-old lineage of spider-men, was driven by fate to gain the mystical power transferred to him by an agent of the spider-god. Oops!
Peter Parker, young, rash, and in pursuit of fame, failed to act -- contributing to the death of his beloved uncle, birthing a guilt that fuels an ever-burning drive to protect the innocent and never let death claim another's life through inaction. Except he didn't.*** His uncle was always alive, watching from the shadows (probably sharing a cup o' joe with Judas Traveler and Scrier #616).
Peter Parker's first true love was Gwen Stacy. A sweet, also brilliant student at his university, and ever her father's daughter. Anyone could see how in love they were and how devoted to each other, until tragedy claimed Gwen's life.
Except they weren't. Gwen, as much as she cared for Peter, couldn't resist the pull of a certain man's powerful green mojo. Oops!
Peter Parker dons a costume and becomes the most colorful, spectacular crimefighter ever. Struggling to make ends meet, Spider-Man
allows Peter to counter the schemes of nefarious foes while protecting his secret identity and allowing him to maintain some semblance of normal life.
But not for long.**
Peter Parker may reveal his identity to the masses in order to support his friend, boss and commander -- Iron Man. Having recently become Iron Man's ward, blood brother and part time accountant at Stark Industries, Peter Parker no longer needs a secret identity, as all his loved ones will soon be fitted with Iron Man armours and taught to travel the wondrous currents of time! Don't miss: Mary & May: Featuring the Temporal Tempests, hitting shelves in Jan. '07.
I could on with this but I'll spare us all. [Looking forward to the thanks.]
The bottomline is, you make the events of Amazing Fantasy #15 into
a fantasy themselves, and you've got the adventures of the Amazing Nobody.
Part Three: Corporate Hyprocrisy
"He's the same as always!"
We are consistently being fed the line that Peter Parker is the same as always. This from the people who killed Peter Parker, introduced mysticism into his storylines, gave him uncharacteristic powers, and feature him gliding around as his primary means of travel. The focal point of all these things being a crossover called: The Other. Psst.. Marvel, I might think something's different about Spidey if the head writer asks me if he's: "one or The Other,"
in a "life changing" arc with the same name. A friendly public service announcement from The White-Spider.
"Spider-Man is still driven by the same motivations!"
Mm-hmm. We'll see Mr. David, we'll see.
Stop unfairly labeling Gwen! Everyone makes mistakes!
This from the geniuses that titled the storyline: Sins Past.
Maybe that's not what they meant. What's this you say?
They followed it up with: Sins Remembered?
Spider-Man's Marriage, Baby, Wealth, Lack of Acne is ruining him,
and making him unrelatable!
And.. forcing him to bury a child, blowing up his wife, making him an Avenger, transforming him into a kid brother figure for other characters, and making him the Sensational Spider-Man.. of this generation... helps me identify with him much better. Thanks Marvel!
"Spider-Man's traditional readers are fixated on the past and can't accept growth or development!"
Ahem. Who keeps dreaming of taking Spidey back to his swingin',
motorcycle riding, leather jacket wearing days? Marvel hasn't accepted the growth and development Spider-Man has experienced the last 20 years. Are they in any position to complain about the fact that I don't like the direction the stories have taken for the last 10?
Part Four: If That's How You Feel, You're No Spider-Man Fan!
Like hell I'm not. I've watched Peter Parker cocoon himself and discard his humanity. Twice. And I came back. I've watched him backhand his pregnant wife and hunt her down in a murderous rage. And I came back. I've seen him declared a clone and become a flunky to a psychopath. And I came back. How long can you hate what you're paying to read before you realize that it's not worth the financial and emotional investment anymore? I'll soon know the answer, it seems.
Bring back Ben, Marvel, and I'm finished. No 616, no Ultimate, no nothing until you restore the mythology and decide to actually use it as the basis of your stories, for once.
* These are not actual excerpts from the materials cited. They are my feeble
attempts at being "cute."
** It has not been confirmed that Spider-Man will reveal his I.D. during Civil War, and only an arrogant bastich would wholeheartedly believe, without a doubt, that this is what Marvel plans to do. I am one such bastich.
*** Take the above, apply it to uncle Ben, and add "supremely" before arrogant.
Indeed? Well, you were certainly quick to defend a proposed storyline that you say you "haven't formed an opinion on" yet, but.....ok.
Or any current writer who happens to be working on a character they love. It's amazing to me how, no matter how lously an idea that comes out, most of those posters always offer a variation of the "wait and see." Then when it actually is as bad as some have claimed, they then say it was the greatest thing they ever read/seen. Case in point: "The Other: Evolve or Die" which, by all accounts, while not a commerical failure, was still a criticial failure.
You know something, WS? Even though I was looking forward to the continuing debate over Ben Reilly, I can think the wait is justified...because this was quite possibly the best post you have ever written in your short time here. To elaborate on what you said would only diminish it because it contains so much truth and conviction. No dobut if you posted this on other forums then you'll incur the wrath of the fanboys, but hey, maybe they need to hear something like this once in awhile.
Originally Posted by PAD
And to hell with fans who judge without reading and to fans who blow carefully crafted and timed stories with precipitous reveals, for no other reason than to destroy comics and make it impossible for writers to do their job.
One more post before I resume my work.
I reject David's premise. I reject the notion that I can't judge a storyline based on its direction. That I must purchase each individual issue and examine its particular content before making an assessment. Peter David and Marvel expect us to be willing to buy based on a preview, but suddenly it's unethical to decline based on the same information?
David's logic: If you bought it up until now, but don't like the direction its heading in, buy the next issue. Otherwise you're not giving it a fair chance. If you don't want to buy it, don't discuss it.
If you bought it and didn't like, shut up.
You know what? To hell with writers who demand that we turn off our brains and pay money to judge the direction of storylines, instead of judging by extensive past experience. Ever heard of consumer confidence, Peter David? How
many times are we required to pay you and your employers to disappoint us, before our confidence in creative teams to tell stories we'll actually enjoy just plain dissipates.
It is your responsibility to create and nurture confidence in the product you market to your potential audience; and in that capacity, as far as many are concerned, you and Marvel have failed.
Furthermore, to hell with companies and writers that pen lengthy, poorly thought out tales that contradict bodies of work -- greater in significance and scope than anything their present run will contribute to the history of the character they currently write -- in order to create a legacy for themselves, put the money of others into their pockets and make it difficult to impossible for readers to enjoy what they're buying. Don't think that statement is fair? It's the exact counter-point to David's statement. I'm sure he wouldn't want to be addressed that way. What makes him feel he's justified in addressing segments of his audience that way?
Peter, we can give as good as we get, and I'm not going to let some self righteous writer make sweeping generalizations and ludicrous arguments to justify the slow destruction of a modern icon.
Not quietly, anyway.
Originally Posted by PAD
Movies and TV, here I come.
If that's his attitude, he can't get there soon enough, as far as I'm concerned.
TheWhiteSpider, I really love how you wrote out for the most part, quite a bit of what I was thinking, but did it without blowing your top off (pretty sure I would've if I even tried ), but standing firm on your ground. For what it's worth, I applaude you; if only Marvel would come down from the pedastal long enought to read it.
You know, seriously, Peter smackin' his wife was a HEAT OF THE MOMENT THING. Why is it NOBODY can see that? Even Spiderfan saw that in their write up of th' issue, an' they take Clone Saga shots whenever possible!
Other'n that, you said it all.
Drats! I've been found out! What tipped you off? The part where I said you should read a story before judging it? Or the part where I said that I liked the current Spider-man books? God forbid you buy and read books because you enjoy them, not because you like to complain on the Interweb.
Marvel must really want to rid the world of 616 and replace it with the ultimate line with the most relentless and unforgiving way possible.