Game of Thrones - Book Readers' Thread - - - Part 20

[Reek]

 

[Reek]

Sorry for the multiple pics, but some of the Stoneheart fan art is just too cool, that last one is awesome.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Such a shame she's excluded from the show. Though I'd gladly trade LS for Strong Belwas!

 

[Drz]

Last year when season finale was coming up our lovely board had 10 critics telling us how they had seen the last episode and half we're confirming Lady Stoneheart and the other saying she wasn't in. Wonder where those critics are for tonight. :*(

 

[ThePhantasm]

 

[ThePhantasm]

GRRM suggests that the Night's King is a show addition, not something you'll see in the books.

Everyone in the media is now assuming that this "Night King" is the SAME character as the legendary "Night's King" fought by Joramun 8,000 years ago. I'm concerned if it's just a TITLE, like "Storm King", so there can be more than one - given that it was said the Night's King was killed.

Now I want to ask "are these indeed the same character?" but I know you probably won't reveal upcoming book material. Better phrasing might be "is it appropriate to treat these as one character on a single article on the wiki, or should we split it into two articles? Or at least two sections on the same article?"

Well, you probably can't answer that as of yet.

One thing I do hope you CAN answer: Benioff and Weiss, the online guide, and even the actor Ross Mullan who plays one of the other White Walkers, CONSISTENTLY refer to him as "The Night King" - without a possessive "S". So my question is, is there *any* significance to that distinction, or can the two terms be used interchangeably?

As for the Night's King (the form I prefer), in the books he is a legendary figure, akin to Lann the Clever and Brandon the Builder, and no more likely to have survived to the present day than they have.

Interesting.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Yeah I mentioned that a couple pages back. It's basically a situation like Peter Jackson and Azog the Defiler being the villain of the Hobbit films, wherein they took a historical in-universe villain and then used him as a primary physical villain of the piece.

 

[Marvolo]

Yeah that has me wondering who is leading the White Walkers in the books. Someone should be leading them. I don't like the idea of them being a leaderless rabble with no hierarchy.

 

[Drz]

Yeah that has me wondering who is leading the White Walkers in the books. Someone should be leading them. I don't like the idea of them being a leaderless rabble with no hierarchy.

We'll learn more aboutn the Others and how their society works. I understand that the show needs someone physical to fight againts a physical hero, One could assume we will also have a White Walker Magician to combat dragons or heck even frost dragons/zombie dragons.

Roose's comparison with Azog is perfect to be honest.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Yeah that has me wondering who is leading the White Walkers in the books. Someone should be leading them. I don't like the idea of them being a leaderless rabble with no hierarchy.

Maybe the Great Other, perhaps done like Sauron or Morgoth as a more spiritual and philosophical foe.

 

[ThePhantasm]

I think the less we know about the Others, the scarier they are. They seem more threatening when we don't know who is leading them. Once the enemy has a face, he's just another dude.

 

[Marvolo]

Maybe the Great Other, perhaps done like Sauron or Morgoth as a more spiritual and philosophical foe.

I would really like that. The Great Other being at the heart of Winter that is.

I think the less we know about the Others, the scarier they are. They seem more threatening when we don't know who is leading them. Once the enemy has a face, he's just another dude.

The Great Other wouldn't be just another dude. If Martin went with a Sauron/Morgoth sort of approach like Roose says it could keep him mysterious. Just have him be at the heart of Winter the same way Sauron stayed in his tower of Baradûr.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The Great Other wouldn't be just another dude. If Martin went with a Sauron/Morgoth sort of approach like Roose says it could keep him mysterious. Just have him be at the heart of Winter the same way Sauron stayed in his tower of Baradûr.

You're making the exact point I just made.

 

[Marvolo]

You're making the exact point I just made.

You said the Others are more threatening when we don't know who is leading them and they don't have a face. I said the leader could be a sauron type which would give them a face but keep some mystery intact. The best of both worlds.

Not the exact same point at all. You're saying there shouldn't be a face. I'm saying there should and could be one without ruining the mystery.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Sauron never shows up in LOTR. He's faceless in that regard, and mysterious (the less we know about the Others, the scarier they are, as I said). We never know quite what Sauron is capable of, not even in the Silmarillion.

So yeah, same point. Potato, Potahto.

The point is that a mysterious dark force or personality behind the Others is more threatening than Ice-Cube Maul.

 

[Marvolo]

Sauron never shows up in LOTR. He's faceless in that regard, and mysterious (the less we know about the Others, the scarier they are, as I said). We never know quite what Sauron is capable of, not even in the Silmarillion.

So yeah, same point. Potato, Potahto.

The point is that a mysterious dark force or personality behind the Others is more threatening than Ice-Cube Maul.

Sauron has a "face". We are told a lot about him and his motivation. And we are made fully aware of his capabilities in LOTR and the Silmarillion. So no not potato potahto. The fact he never walks out on the battlefield in LOTR doesn't change that. There is mystery but not as much as you seem to want.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Sauron never shows up in LOTR. He's faceless in that regard, and mysterious (the less we know about the Others, the scarier they are, as I said). We never know quite what Sauron is capable of, not even in the Silmarillion.

So yeah, same point. Potato, Potahto.



The point is that a mysterious dark force or personality behind the Others is more threatening than Ice-Cube Maul.

I disagree. We still know next to nothing about the Night's king in the show (hell, we only have that name off of a tv description, so it's not even officially show cannon yet). The white walkers are still incredibly mysterious, and they still have that mysterious otherworldly threat going on.

This isn't a situation where the show has completely deconstructed them. It's just given them a leader, but a leader that's still just as mysterious as the rest of them.

I don't think it really changes much, if anything, in terms of the feel of the WW in the boon compared to the show. They're both still looming unknown threats. If anything, the book WW are still a bit too nebulous. Even if we never really saw Sauron in LOTR, we still knew he was leading them. Right now, the way the books are, it would be as if there was just a massive army of orcs and belongs with no discernable leader or purpose other than to f*&ck ****e up.

 

[Marvolo]

I disagree. We still know next to nothing about the Night's king in the show (hell, we only have that name off of a tv description, so it's noteven officially show cannon yet). The white walkers are still incredibly mysterious, and they still have that mysterious otherworldly threat going on.

This isn't a situation where the show has completely deconstructed them. It's juat given them a leader, but a leader that's still just as mysterious as the rest of them.

I don't think it really changes much, if anything, in terms of the feel of the WW in the boon compared to the show. They're both still looming unknown threats. If anything, the book WW are still a bit too nebulous. Even if we never really saw Sauron in LOTR, we still knew he was leading them. Right now, the way the books are, it would be as if there was just a massive army of orcs and belongs with no discernable leader or purpose other than to f*&ck ****e up.

The best way to describe the White Walkers in the books is they are a sentient representation of Winter. The elements of Winter given living form.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Even if we never really saw Sauron in LOTR, we still knew he was leading them. Right now, the way the books are, it would be as if there was just a massive army of orcs and belongs with no discernable leader or purpose other than to f*&ck ****e up.

Well, obviously there are differences in the analogy, WWs aren't like orcs (orcs aren't threatening to begin with, they are dim-witted and stupid).

But the WW or Others are supposed to be the massive army that you described. They come with the Winter, they are the Winter... they are a force of nature. That's what makes them so intimidating.

Giving them a leader at the front of their ranks just makes them like another army, with another weak point: kill the leader. Which I guarantee the show will do, given that its unlikely to be able to film a huge WW / human army battle scene. Its much more likely to have Jon just kill the "Night's King" in one-on-one combat.

 

[ThePhantasm]

There is mystery but not as much as you seem to want.

You seem to know what I want better than I do. Am I needed as a part of this conversation or can you just continue debating an imaginary me in my absence?

No, we're not fully aware of the capabilities of the Maiar in the Silmarillion. Sauron seems to have shape-changing abilities, for example, but we have no idea what the limitations are on that. Heck, we don't even know for certain that the balrog had wings... its a much debated point among Tolkien fans.

 

[Marvolo]

You seem to know what I want better than I do. Am I needed as a part of this conversation or can you just continue debating an imaginary me in my absence?

No, we're not fully aware of the capabilities of the Maiar in the Silmarillion. Sauron seems to have shape-changing abilities, for example, but we have no idea what the limitations are on that. Heck, we don't even know for certain that the balrog had wings... its a much debated point among Tolkien fans.

We know the Maiar are angelic beings and analogous to angels in Christianity. That tells us a lot about the power of the Maiar. I don't need to know the exact limitations of every single one of his powers to grasp the idea of his power. We are given a good idea of what happens if he gets the ring. We are given in no uncertain terms what he wants to do to Middle Earth. And we know exactly who is leading the orcs of Middle Earth.

And don't be mean. You said,

I think the less we know about the Others, the scarier they are. They seem more threatening when we don't know who is leading them. Once the enemy has a face, he's just another dude.

If you weren't trying to say that you didn't want to know who was leading them and didn't want them to have a "face" then you worded your post very poorly. We know who is leading the enemies in Middle Earth. And he has a face. So don't get mad at me. You're the one who said you didn't want to know who was leading the White Walkers and didn't want them to have a leader with a face. Sauron doesn't fit what you said you wanted. If you would like to amend what you want then fine. We all have messed up and worded posts poorly and misrepresented what we mean. I'm just trying to get a handle on exactly what it is you want because you aren't being very clear or consistent.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Part of the problem here is that, as I said, the Sauron analogy doesn't work all the way. The WWs aren't orcs, and I think GRRM has already said in the past he has a distaste for dark lord / Sauron type figures. I think its pretty clear the White Walkers are meant more to be a mysterious, mythical force of nature, like spirits from Celtic legends or something.

I never said that I didn't want to ever know who was leading the Others. That's a conclusion that you drew on your own. All I said is that right now, they seem more threatening because we don't know who is leading them. The more that is revealed, the less scary they seem. Its entirely possible GRRM could create a Sauron type figure with ambiguous powers and capabilities that would be super mysterious and frightening. I think its unlikely, but sure, fine, he could.

The "enemy has a face" thing is a metaphor you are taking way too literally. I didn't mean that the enemy shouldn't have a physical face. That's stupid. Sauron has a physical face but he never appears in LOTR, as I said above. So he's in a sense unimaginable, faceless in that he's hidden from sight in Baradur. I've clarified this several times but you seem intent on harping on your misinterpretation of what I said rather than my clarification.

Yes, the maiar are analogous to angels in Christianity. No, we don't know precisely what they are capable of. Not even Gandalf seems to know what the limits of his own power might be, before fighting the balrog. They are mysterious creatures.

Sauron is a mysterious power of unknown limits, that's what makes him such a great counterpoint to the small, unimposing, heroic hobbits, of whom we know precisely what their limitations are.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Well, obviously there are differences in the analogy, WWs aren't like orcs (orcs aren't threatening to begin with, they are dim-witted and stupid).

But the WW or Others are supposed to be the massive army that you described. They come with the Winter, they are the Winter... they are a force of nature. That's what makes them so intimidating.

Giving them a leader at the front of their ranks just makes them like another army, with another weak point: kill the leader. Which I guarantee the show will do, given that its unlikely to be able to film a huge WW / human army battle scene. Its much more likely to have Jon just kill the "Night's King" in one-on-one combat.

This is true, but to be honest, I prefer the smaller, more human struggles anyway. Even if they did have the budget to show a huge battle sequence, if it really were only masses of humans against masses of snow zombies, I would get pretty bored. The best battle sequences are the ones that interject humanity into them. The ones that can connect to us on some level. Even the massive opening war sequence in Saving Private Ryan was grounded in the point of view of Hank's character, and that made it even more powerful.

So I'm all right if they do go with the "boss battle showdown" solution. But even if they do, the show WW's are still pretty unkown. We don't know if killing the king will kill them all. We don't know if the other WW's can also raise the dead...we don't know the extent of their magic. They're still pretty shrouded in mystery.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Giving them a leader at the front of their ranks just makes them like another army, with another weak point: kill the leader. Which I guarantee the show will do, given that its unlikely to be able to film a huge WW / human army battle scene. Its much more likely to have Jon just kill the "Night's King" in one-on-one combat.

Here's the point. I'm not making it again because the life has been sucked out of this discussion now. Consider this my final post on the subject.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

After Hardhome, Blackwater and Watchers on the Wall, I fully expect an epic final battle involving the Watch, Jon, WW and Dragons.