Gender Roles & Identity in contemporary society

Have you polled every woman in the workplace to find out why she's not working overtime? You're again passing judgement on women as to why they don't work overtime in favour of raising children. Unless you know their reasons, just stop.
Theres about 500 total people working in my department. I don't know them all, but I know a great deal of them. I just ask them..."staying late tonight? Hey coming in this weekend?" and listen to the responses. I'm not guessing at this.
 
Theres about 500 total people working in my department. I don't know them all, but I know a great deal of them. I just ask them..."staying late tonight? Hey coming in this weekend?" and listen to the responses. I'm not guessing at this.

This small sample size of people that you ask a basic question to is not representative of the majority. Also, they could be lying to you.

You are guessing. You're making huge assumptions about a group in society based on the casual conversation of a few select people.

Women's long work hours linked to alarming increases in cancer, heart disease: Study links overtime to early development of chronic, life-threatening illness

Just one possible explanation. Also, women faced harsh scrutiny when they first started working and balancing being a parent and although it has lessened over time, that doesn't mean career women are completely off the hook. Attitudes towards working men are much more lenient than attitudes towards working women.
 
It sounds like you think it's as simple as a woman making the choice to not work overtime and go home to raise the kids. But again, you're missing the context of those decisions. They're not made in a vacuum. Women (still) do the majority of the housework and the cooking. Some of them simply don't have the time to work overtime, not like men do.
 
Well, a woman's standard of living goes does 30% after a divorce whereas a guy gets a 10% bump (on average). So it's not exactly equal.

The Divorce Gap - The Atlantic

I shouldn't have said that guys get the short end of the stick in court. Working in a law firm mainly with family lawyers is a poor measuring stick. A lot of it is about perspective.

Divorce is harder on men psychologically because they have less same sex support than women and they're less likely to seek help for mental health issues.

You're still under this weird assumption that true equality doesn't exist yet because women don't fight as hard as men. You really really really need to take a step back and re-evaluate that position. History and context are important.
That article sounded like a horror story, as well as the accompanying article explaining the gap. Those numbers make sense when you consider that women marry up in many cases. But besides that, I would guess men are just better at scaling away their money and recovering from a divorce than women. Usually the person who initiates the split has the advantage in family court. In both of these cases, the men did. But overall, women initiate divorce more often.

Women Initiate Divorce Much More Than Men, Here's Why

But I agree, every situation is about perspective. Are women fighting to be sharks in the business world as hard as they fought for their rights in the family courts? Do most women want to be mothers? Will they forego motherhood to rise in the corporate world? These are the questions that ultimately decide the matter.
 
Why would women have to give up being a mother to rise in the corporate world but men don't have to give up being a father?

Please stop asking your questions as if it's a simple matter of just making different choices. It's not.
 
That article sounded like a horror story, as well as the accompanying article explaining the gap. Those numbers make sense when you consider that women marry up in many cases. But besides that, I would guess men are just better at scaling away their money and recovering from a divorce than women. Usually the person who initiates the split has the advantage in family court.

Please provide a source for this.
 
This small sample size of people that you ask a basic question to is not representative of the majority. Also, they could be lying to you.

You are guessing. You're making huge assumptions about a group in society based on the casual conversation of a few select people.

Women's long work hours linked to alarming increases in cancer, heart disease: Study links overtime to early development of chronic, life-threatening illness

Just one possible explanation. Also, women faced harsh scrutiny when they first started working and balancing being a parent and although it has lessened over time, that doesn't mean career women are completely off the hook. Attitudes towards working men are much more lenient than attitudes towards working women.
Sounds like men's bodies are biologically built for long, arduous work schedules. Men produce testosterone, which besides building muscle gives men focus during long work sessions.

I guess what I'm seeking is life satisfaction for all, men and women. That's what equality is all about, people doing whatever they want to do. I don't think men are holding women back from that as much as folks indicate.
 
Sounds like men's bodies are biologically built for long, arduous work schedules. Men produce testosterone, which besides building muscle gives men focus during long work sessions.

No...just no.

Women tend to take on the lion's share of family responsibility and may face more pressure and stress than men when they work long hours, previous research shows. On top of that, work for women may be less satisfying because of the need to balance work demands with family obligations, Dembe said

I guess what I'm seeking is life satisfaction for all, men and women. That's what equality is all about, people doing whatever they want to do. I don't think men are holding women back from that as much as folks indicate.

Then you're woefully ignorant about history and society. The tides are turning, but there's still work to be done. And at every turn, it seems some men throw a huge hissy fit when a group that isn't them gets a slice of that equality pie.
 

Ignoring that this is one guy's opinion and that he quoted another lawyer in this article as saying,

But think carefully before you do. Debra DiMaggio a divorce attorney in Illinois, tells her clients there are pros and cons to presenting first.

“On one hand, if you’re the wronged spouse, you may feel the need to be the first to file for emotional reasons. No one wants to be the ‘rejected’ spouse,” she explained to me. “But on the other hand, you may not want to reveal your strategy to the other side, who can then adjust his or her presentation accordingly.”

I do find it funny that you used a lawyer that specifically writes for women. Some of his reasons for filing first include:

-preventing the husband from hiding assets
-preventing the husband from having quick consultations with lawyers in the area and making it illegal for them to represent the wife
-putting together a divorce team that will help the wife re-enter the job market (if applicable)
-being able to gather the necessary documents before a controlling husband hides them

Women don't initiate divorces the majority of the time because they're looking for payouts. It usually comes after couples therapy and their dissatisfaction with the marriage. From your own source:

When men and women seek couples therapy and then subsequently divorce; or, when either partner seeks individual therapy about a marriage conflict that ends in divorce, it’s often the woman who expresses more overt conflict and dissatisfaction about the state of the marriage

He adds, “I think that marriage as an institution has been a little bit slow to catch up with expectations for gender equality. Wives still take their husbands’ surnames, and are sometimes pressured to do so. Husbands still expect their wives to do the bulk of the housework and the bulk of the childcare
 
Ignoring that this is one guy's opinion and that he quoted another lawyer in this article as saying,



I do find it funny that you used a lawyer that specifically writes for women. Some of his reasons for filing first include:

-preventing the husband from hiding assets
-preventing the husband from having quick consultations with lawyers in the area and making it illegal for them to represent the wife
-putting together a divorce team that will help the wife re-enter the job market (if applicable)
-being able to gather the necessary documents before a controlling husband hides them

Women don't initiate divorces the majority of the time because they're looking for payouts. It usually comes after couples therapy and their dissatisfaction with the marriage. From your own source:
I'm in agreement with all of it, thats why I posted the article. I said those men initiated the divorce and they had the advantage. However, most divorces are initiated by women and there are dozens of web articles stating it is advantageous to initiate.
 
Have you polled every woman in the workplace to find out why she's not working overtime? You're again passing judgement on women as to why they don't work overtime in favour of raising children. Unless you know their reasons, just stop.
The people that consistently ask to take my overtime shifts are 75% women. I usually let them too.
 
Jordan Peterson is a horrible human being. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt.

I don't agree with Jordan Peteson on a few things, calling him a horrible human being is a bit of a stretch though. He genuinely cares about the well-being of young men:



I've seen quite a few comments on YouTube from men who've said his "12 Rules for Life.." book has made a positive difference in terms of giving them structure, direction and improving their relationships. There are a lot worse individuals out there who are bad-faith actors.

What don't you like about what he's said specifically?

It's like you've completely ignored every post by other users here. Especially about the gendered personality traits. Men who exhibit feminine traits are paid less than their masculine counterparts because feminine traits are devalued in the workforce. They're seen as weak. They are absolutely being paid less because of gendered traits that men aren't supposed to exhibit. Women who exhibit masculine traits are looked down on because they're not seen as feminine enough or "trying too hard." I thought that was obvious. You keep thinking that masculine traits are valued because they're better. This is a horrible mindset to have.

If you honestly think that masculine traits like aggression, anger, and emotional unavailability are good for a workforce, then this discussion is over.

Sorry I forgot to comment on this originally. This is very true, but I'd also add that this applies to certain groups of men as well. If you're a tall man and you're aggressive or forthright you're being 'commanding' or confident' and 'taking charge' and viewed positively. If say a short man does this, they're labelled as having a 'short man syndrome'/'Napoleon Complex' (even though he wasn't short for his time but nevermind) and domineering.
 
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I don't agree with Jordan Peteson on a few things, calling him a horrible human being is a bit of a stretch though. He genuinely cares about the well-being of young men:



I've seen quite a few comments on YouTube from men who've said his "12 Rules for Life.." book has made a positive difference in terms of giving them structure, direction and improving their relationships. There are a lot worse individuals out there who are bad-faith actors.

What don't you like about what he's said specifically?



Sorry I forgot to comment on this originally. This is very true, but I'd also add that this applies to certain groups of men as well. If you're a tall man and you're aggressive or forthright you're being 'commanding' or confident' and 'taking charge' and viewed positively. If say a short man does this, they're labelled as having a 'short man syndrome'/'Napoleon Complex' (even though he wasn't short for his time but nevermind) and domineering.

Jordan Peterson treats women subhuman, while trying to rationale the Incel community and right wing talking points. He argues that people shouldn't waste their energy on trying to change their country for the better, to stay out of politics, while pushing his own. He is a piece of trash, garbage, whose only abilities as a decent life coach is outweighed by what he is trying to do with that.

It's telling you say he cares about young men. You know, avoiding half of the population in the process. That is before you know we get into the rest of the LGBTQIA community which his awful treatment of got him famous in the first place.



I'd post ContraPoints excellent video on "daddy" but I can't, do to language. I'd suggest it for anyone though. How Peterson has used an old BS Nazi argument to try and paint the Left as Totalitarians. Which of course is rather ironic. He does this to throw a blanket over the entity of the Left, trying to make it a Totalitarian boogieman. He does this to try and dismiss any progressive policies. Everything from healthcare to women's rights to transgender rights, so on and so forth.

I'd also suggest watching him on Joe Rogan. I don't know how many times he has been on, but on one ocassion Peterson tries to argues for the equality of outcome for men when it comes to women (basically we need to do something as society that equally distribute women), while this is the man who argues against it for such things as healthcare. It's a telling bit of dialogue from Peterson, who on plenty of occasions has treated women like they are screeching harpies, whose only real value is what they can give to men.
 
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Also, just listen (or try) to listen to Peterson on Sam Harris's podcast, particularly his first appearance. They get bogged down just trying to define what "truth" is. Peterson has a real knack for obfuscating and clouding issues behind uselessly impenetrable word salad. I then find out, hilariously, that one of his 12 rules for life is "be precise in your speech." Ridiculous. Look at the absurd lengths this guy bends and contorts himself whenever someone asks him something like "are you a Christian?"
 
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Also, just listen (or try) to listen to Peterson on Sam Harris's podcast, particularly his first appearance. They get bogged down just trying to define what "truth" is. Peterson has a real knack for obfuscating and clouding issues behind uselessly impenetrable word salad. I then find out, hilariously, that one his 12 rules for life is "be precise in your speech." Ridiculous. Look at the absurd lengths this guy bends and contorts himself whenever someone asks him something like "are you a Christian?"
ContraPoints' video goes over this a bit. Peterson rarely says anything of substance or answers a question properly. What he does is says something that is obvious truth. Then he will "imply" something more sinister, but this argues he isn't saying that, while doing it. Because he tries to avoid saying it directly, as to avoid being able to be caught out on it.

An example. Men and women are biologically different. Yep, we all agree on this. But then Peterson will imply how that limits women, when it comes to something like work.
 
I'd also suggest watching him on Joe Rogan. I don't know how many times he has been on, but on one ocassion Peterson tries to argues for the equality of outcome for men when it comes to women (basically we need to do something as society that equally distribute women), while this is the man who argues against it for such things as healthcare. It's a telling bit of dialogue from Peterson, who on plenty of occasions has treated women like they are screeching harpies, whose only real value is what they can give to men.

I caught that. He was hilariously trying to clarify his original 'enforced monogamy' line.
 
I don't agree with Jordan Peteson on a few things, calling him a horrible human being is a bit of a stretch though. He genuinely cares about the well-being of young men:



I've seen quite a few comments on YouTube from men who've said his "12 Rules for Life.." book has made a positive difference in terms of giving them structure, direction and improving their relationships. There are a lot worse individuals out there who are bad-faith actors.
QUOTE]

He seems a pretty reasonable guy, do I agree with him on everything no but he makes some good points. Was going to give his book a try but im not really one for the self help stuff.

Plus his interview with Cathy Newman will forever be one of the most hilarious bits of political debate I have ever seen.
 
Jordan Peterson is not reasonable. The idea that he is, is not only false, it comes with a basic lack of knowledge on any subject he is speaking on. This is after all the guy that argues one should not waste their energy on social and political causes, while pushing his own agendas in those regards. Also, dude is pretty stupid or pretty evil when it comes to plenty of things he tries to speak on.. Look at him talking about Nazism. Which he clearly doesn't understand, but at the same time figures out a way to make the far right feel perfectly at ease with their evil rhetoric.



Oh yes, he is very "reasonable".
 
Peterson knows how to sound like someone who knows something and who has a point...but he doesnt.
Its all a smoke screen of a guy who likes to smell his own farts.

Jordan Peterson is as arrogant as they come and clueless as they come.
He is one of those "fake woke" people who think they have things figured out, but really doesnt.

People think he is reasonable because he hides it all behind fancy answers where people lose the track of the question and topic.
 
Can't say I have watched all of his stuff but nothing I've seen of his has given me that view. The debate that featured him and Stephen Fry was pretty interesting.
 
Uh huh... So someone didn't watch the Nazism video.
 
The fact that Peterson is even popular says to me something is inherently wrong with how men have been raised in western society. The fact that so many young men have gravitated towards him, almost like some surrogate father figure, to hear some pretty logical and straight forwards things about life, says to me somewhere in the last 20-30 years something has gone off the rails with what's being taught to kids.

Talking to a female friend of mine recently about how society has gone since we were kids it became obvious to us that what may have happened is our generation was the first where girls were truly given the chance to do what they wished, and the girls were encouraged to do so. The problem was the boys were left behind. Girls have been the main focus on education in the last 2-3 decades. So, we've probably got an entire generation or two of men between 18-35 who have felt there's been a lack of guidance and solutions as to what their roles now are and what they are suppose to do. And when men don't have things to do bad things can happen to themselves or to those around them.

This is why I feel the Gillette ad caused such a backlash. You've got a generation of men who probably feel like they've been left behind simply because of their sex. They were competitive, aggressive, dominant, but they didn't know how to or weren't taught how to use those traits in a constructive way in an era where girls were taking away many of their traditional responsibilities. And so they are drawn to someone like Peterson because he's the one person they've heard say there's nothing wrong with those traits, there's nothing wrong with you, you're just not using your traits and skills the right way. You can do more.

It's such a simple thing, and yet it's sad that it even needs to be said in the first place. We talk so much of mens suicide and yet I don't think I've ever heard someone suggest as simple as showing boys what a productive path to success looks like and encouraging them to follow it. How many men could be saved if they were simply shown that little bit of encouragement at a younger age? Probably a lot. Peterson shouldn't be popular, he shouldn't have a best selling book, there's no logical reason for a university Professor who no-one knew 2 years ago to be selling out arenas globally. And yet he is, and he's telling a lot of men, and women for that matter, something that they desperately want to hear. It says a lot to me about society that some pretty straight forward life advice is being so desperately desired.
 

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