The Rise of Skywalker General Star Wars Episode IX News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[Tg11]

Matt Smith is gonna be in Episode IX...well if he is it is almost a guarantee that his character will be a villain

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Well, right. But what you seemed to be getting at is that killing their own people intentionally for strategic reasons is solely an Empire/First Order thing.

It's different in the sense that when Vader does it, it's just usually because someone's pissed him off by screwing up, sure. I guess you could make a strategic argument for that too, in a really goddamn ruthless world view.

It's not the same thing, Cassian didn't "execute" the guy in a judicial sense for messing up. But pretty clearly the Rebels (not so much mainstream Rebels, but their military intelligence wing) isn't above putting down their own guys who have the right intentions & aren't necessarily traitors, if they feel they have to.

Which has nothing to do with the conversation at hand...

 

[Iceman]

Iconic

Striding is the appropriate term here I believe, but yes, quite excellent.

 

[Aximili86]

Which has nothing to do with the conversation at hand...

Erm...

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Erm...

Would Finn, a member of the Resistance, execute someone for revenge has exactly what to do with what you wrote? Because that was the point. That was the question. If Finn would murder someone because they crossed him in the past. And considering we have seen multiple executions in the Star Wars films and they have all been carried out by dark side wielders, Imperials, Separatists and First Order members I am confused by what is even the argument here. Because that isn't what Cassian does at all.

 

[AverageMan]

Is there a box office speculation thread for this yet?

 

[DarthSkywalker]

 

[Aximili86]

Would Finn, a member of the Resistance, execute someone for revenge has exactly what to do with what you wrote? Because that was the point. That was the question. If Finn would murder someone because they crossed him in the past. And considering we have seen multiple executions in the Star Wars films and they have all been carried out by dark side wielders, Imperials, Separatists and First Order members I am confused by what is even the argument here. Because that isn't what Cassian does at all.

Who's missing the point now? Nobody mentioned Finn, or the modern Resistance, like at all.

A point was made that executions are solely an Empire/First Order thing, the retort is that the military-intelligence/black-ops wing of the OT Rebellion has come pretty close. Motivations are different, absolutely, but all said and done it's still getting rid of an on-your-side inconvenience (one who there's no evidence is a traitor, or death-offense criminal of any sort) with a blaster to the back.

Point being, we have an example on film that the good guys, when pushed, are capable of some pretty cold sh*t. And the follow-up point was literally that it's not the same thing as what Vader does. You're projecting again.

 

[Marvolo]

The Rebellion killed around 1 million people on each death star. Some of those people being slaves and wrongfully imprisoned beings and non combatant imperials. With the first death star it can be argued that it was self defense because the death star was about to destroy yavin. But that doesn't change the fact that they sacrificed a million people to save themselves and for the greater good. In the case of the second death star they attacked it when it was under construction meaning there were no doubt contracted workers and more slaves than were on the first death star. They attacked the second death star when it posed no immediate threat to any planet. Because they believed it was for the greater good. The Rebellion is more than capable of making unilateral decisions when they think it's good for the galaxy and it's people.

And there seems to be an attempt to paint DJ as less of a POS than he is. He didnt just "cross" Finn. That makes it sound as if Finn is some petty boss with a petty grudge. DJ sold people's lives for cash and then shrugged about it and walked away with his money. That's beyond heinous. It's the sort of thing that deserves an execution. So no it wouldnt be murder. Itd be justice delivered.

Let's bring this into a real world scenario. Imagine American soldiers in Afghanistan or some other hostile war zone. A group of american soldiers is cut off from help and being hunted. Someone tries to sell those troops to a terrorist group for cash and in doing so gets some of the soldiers killed. Gets some non combatants killed too. How do you think the military would respond if it found out a person did that? You think they'd let it go? No, they'd hunt the person down like a dog and kill the person. I expect nothing less from the Rebellion. It's a military and a refugee group. Its operating in a war zone during a a time of war and it has no backup or aid of any kind. And DJ tried to destroy it for cash. Not only that but by doing so he was helping destroy the last opposition to the First Order. Which means he pretty much sold the whole galaxy to the First Order for his own personal profit.

 

[Aximili86]

Bingo.

 

[titansupes]

Hamill's very much beardless right now, and hinted that he'd been shooting. Could Force Ghost Luke ( )be getting the CGI de-ageing treatment...? And could that lend more credence to a de-aged Obi-Wan coming in suddenly looking like McGregor instead of Guinness?

 

[Aximili86]

Hope they don't go a young-Luke route force-ghost wise, personally, but I guess there's precedent for it now in the latest version of Jedi with Hayden. *Shrugs*

Doubt it though, it'll likely be Hamill-as-Hamill is. Not sure why he'd be clean-shaven right now though, that's definitely a little odd. Maybe whatever he comes back as (might even be up and above what we know as a "ghost" so far) could be some "idealized" look? Like still 66-year-old Mark, but all spiffy & neat as opposed to how he was in TLJ? Might be cool for something different, an even more cleaned-up version than he was as the force-projection on Crait. It'd be kinda arbitrary, but whatever.

 

[Lilbaz]

The Rebellion killed around 1 million people on each death star. Some of those people being slaves and wrongfully imprisoned beings and non combatant imperials. With the first death star it can be argued that it was self defense because the death star was about to destroy yavin. But that doesn't change the fact that they sacrificed a million people to save themselves and for the greater good. In the case of the second death star they attacked it when it was under construction meaning there were no doubt contracted workers and more slaves than were on the first death star. They attacked the second death star when it posed no immediate threat to any planet. Because they believed it was for the greater good. The Rebellion is more than capable of making unilateral decisions when they think it's good for the galaxy and it's people.

And there seems to be an attempt to paint DJ as less of a POS than he is. He didnt just "cross" Finn. That makes it sound as if Finn is some petty boss with a petty grudge. DJ sold people's lives for cash and then shrugged about it and walked away with his money. That's beyond heinous. It's the sort of thing that deserves an execution. So no it wouldnt be murder. Itd be justice delivered.

Let's bring this into a real world scenario. Imagine American soldiers in Afghanistan or some other hostile war zone. A group of american soldiers is cut off from help and being hunted. Someone tries to sell those troops to a terrorist group for cash and in doing so gets some of the soldiers killed. Gets some non combatants killed too. How do you think the military would respond if it found out a person did that? You think they'd let it go? No, they'd hunt the person down like a dog and kill the person. I expect nothing less from the Rebellion. It's a military and a refugee group. Its operating in a war zone during a a time of war and it has no backup or aid of any kind. And DJ tried to destroy it for cash. Not only that but by doing so he was helping destroy the last opposition to the First Order. Which means he pretty much sold the whole galaxy to the First Order for his own personal profit.

Devils advocate here. A few years back a leak led to the chinese learning that there were people working in one of their government buildings that were leaking information to the us. The chinese took them into the court yard of the building and executed them infront of the rest of the office staff. Was that right?

 

[Aximili86]

Uhh, yeah. They were supplying the enemy, leaking state secrets. China's pretty hardline, and obviously doesn't give a crap about human rights, but sure, if they had the proof then yeah, you charge them with treason and they meet their maker. They'd get a trial in a more civilized country than China, so that's where they're wrong on it, but I guess the principle of the thing is otherwise sound.

We used to do that not all that long ago too. Chelsea Manning likely would have taken a bullet back in the Cold War, doing the same thing with analogue information.

 

[Lilbaz]

Uhh, yeah. They were supplying the enemy, leaking state secrets. China's pretty hardline, and obviously doesn't give a crap about human rights, but sure, if they had the proof then yeah, you charge them with treason and they meet their maker. They'd get a trial in a more civilized country than China, so that's where they're wrong on it, but I guess the principle of the thing is otherwise sound.

We used to do that not all that long ago too. Chelsea Manning likely would have taken a bullet back in the Cold War, doing the same thing with analogue information.

Fair enough, can't say you're wrong. Just important to remember that everyone uses spies and informants not just 'the enemy'. Assange would be one.

 

[wampa1]

These are kids films at the end of the day and our heroes shouldn't be murdering people in cold blood.. Finn would never in a million years kill DJ for any reason other then self-defense. He'd get angry and lash out, but you tie DJ up, give Finn a gun and he'd never do it. The Star Wars universe is built on a foundation of a binary morality - good/evil, light/dark. You blur those lines and it loses it's Star Warsyness.

In my opinion it was a mistake to explore that avenue in Rogue One but they at least had the good sense to kill off Cassian to thematically demonstrate that you can't murder someone without significant penance.

 

[Aximili86]

Are you kidding? Cassian wasn't wrong in doing what he did. Just...cold. There's no "penance" necessary.

And of course Finn's not going to kill DJ. If DJ had pulled that crap with the commander guy Cassian was reporting to in the Rebellion era though, hell yeah. DJ's probably ending up in some black site somewhere, either in a box never to see daylight again, or simply blastered down by one of those special forces "Ministry Of Ungentlemanly Warfare" type dudes that end up on Scarif.

Point being, there are different divisions of the OT Rebels. Luke or Leia aren't ever going to pull a Cassian, but they sure as sh*t have other guys like Cassian out there. We don't have any examples of it in the ST era yet, but assumedly the Resistance has a spy/special forces/military intel wing of some description too. There are probably people capable of it, or even ordered to engage in such stuff.

 

[wampa1]

Cassian was in a million years wrong. He killed an unarmed man by shooting him in the back. It's as wrong as it gets. Even the character realises it's wrong. I'm not arguing military strategy in the context of the story but rather that these are kid's films and the morality is absolute. There was no coming back for the character other than to kill him off in some kind of sacrifice play which is what they did. That's par for the course for that type of a character.

 

[Aximili86]

They're literally dealing with whether or not the galaxy starts enduring even more of a reign of terror or not. This is "does Hitler get the Bomb before the Allies do?" stuff.

Yes, they're kids' films. Rogue One, along with Revenge Of The Sith I guess, is probably the least "for kids" of the bunch, and the scene's intended to be blurring the lines a little. Not saying the Rebels aren't any better than the Empire, because of course they are, but getting a little into that whole "sometimes the good guys don't necessarily always do good stuff" reality.

You're, what, seriously saying that if you were some German resistance movement guy in the 40s, some informant was in-the-know with (even second-hand) information on how to obtain a way to sabotage Hitler's almost-complete nuke program before it's viable to use, and he wasn't physically capable of either getting away from an incoming SS battalion or withstanding inevitable interrogation, you wouldn't put a bullet in him once he's given you the necessary information? And if you happened to do it, you'd see it as unnecessary & wrong in hindsight?

I'm with you on the "they're films for kids" thing, but we crossed that bridge as far as "what kids probably shouldn't see" with George back in 2005 with a guy choking out his wife and killing preschoolers. In that context of content, and going by reality's moral spectrum, he's absolutely justified. It's horrible, but it happens - he didn't do it, the Rebels didn't get that info (or they do get it but the Empire knows that they know), and many more people are going to die than the one informant guy who's in over his head.

 

[wampa1]

Your Anakin example is flawed as he is clearly on the path to becoming a villain (who's ultimate penance is death, BTY).

But you're conflating in-universe justification with the real world. I'm sure there's all sorts of horrible things happening in-universe, which is totally fine. I'm just saying that as a creator of a billion dollar family friendly franchise you don't show one of your main character murdering someone as anything other than being in the wrong to do so and you do that by having them pay for it.

 

[Aximili86]

Cassian's not presented as some clean-cut clear-morality guy though. He's a friggin' espionage agent for chrissakes. We've had spies mentioned since the OT, these types of people were always out there associated with the Rebellion. All they did in Rogue One was actually show it, and get into the weeds a little with what that does to a person. Cruel deeds serving the right cause and all that jazz.

Not really getting why you think Cassian dying is somehow him "paying" for misdeeds, that pretty clearly wasn't what they were getting at. They were all basically volunteering for a suicide mission, and that's how it ended up panning out. Cassian doesn't have anything to atone for regarding shooting that guy down, by not doing it he'd be stopping a chain reaction that could potentially stop billions (trillions?) of people from living under this new superweapon and people willing to use it.

It's one thing to say it's a little dark in terms of material for a Disney movie, a family-friendly franchise, and sure, that's valid. But under the circumstances, he's still just a dude forced to make a terrible choice, and making the right move. Making the right move can still be a horrible thing. Doesn't mean there's any penance necessary for it, given it's one thing or the other, the other thing is worse.

 

[wampa1]

You're continually bringing up the in-universe character and providing rationale as though he were a real person which is not what I'm getting at. I'm talking about fictional characters in general who demonstrate extreme amorality and are redeemed thematically by some form of sacrifice imposed upon them. It's a familiar trope in family movies as a means of exploring those characters without rewarding their actions (for some reason the only other one springing to mind is Mack from Kingdom of the Crystal Skull which I recognise is a terrible example).

Maybe I'm not being particular clear with the point I'm trying to make but I don't really know how else to express it so we'll leave it there.

 

[Aximili86]

If you're going at it from a storytelling perspective, yeah, he definitely softens over the course of the movie, there's an arc there. A purpose building, group of new friends making a sacrifice play.

What I'm not getting is how that sacrifice is in any way linked to remorse or penance over shooting down the chubby guy. There's literally nothing in the movie indicating we're supposed to think he felt it was wrong , only that the nasty business of war is starting to weigh heavily on him over the years. You can think something was necessary and justified under the circumstances while still having it affect you emotionally.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Personally, I loved that they showed the darker side of the Rebellion in Rogue One. I thought it was something interesting and new for them to explore. You don't overthrow an evil empire without doing some darker things yourself.

 

[sueb1863]

Personally, I loved that they showed the darker side of the Rebellion in Rogue One. I thought it was something interesting and new for them to explore. You don't overthrow an evil empire without doing some darker things yourself.

That's what I liked about that scene as well. Plus, Cassian really didn't have a choice. It was kill the guy or leave him to be tortured to death by the Empire and probably betray the entire Rebellion in the process, or stay and get captured and tortured to death as well. The Empire was closing in and they had no hope of escape.