The Force Awakens General Star Wars Episode VII News/Speculation Thread - Part 1

[regwec]

Of course, I appreciate that they are just having fun. But I wouldn't want anything in a StarWars movie to look like that, or even to take the same approach.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

I do think the prequel fights were a little overchoreographed. If it were up to me I'd make more of an effort at giving each Jedi their own fighting style. That way you could have your acrobatic Darth Maul, Luke would be a more methodical-samurai style, etc.

 

[regwec]

I still feel that the Cloud City duel between Luke and Vader was the best executed, partly because it was a physical mismatch. Vader was able to batter down on Luke's defense, while he was forced to be more evasive. Added to that, the slower, more deliberate pace of the duels in the OT lent them more dramatic gravity. The colour and sound of the lightsabres gave those scenes a frisson of energy all by themselves. You lose that when your Jedi are doing cartwheels and your Sith is standing on his head.

 

[Solidus]

I still feel that the Cloud City duel between Luke and Vader was the best executed, partly because it was a physical mismatch. Vader was able to batter down on Luke's defense, while he was forced to be more evasive. Added to that, the slower, more deliberate pace of the duels in the OT lent them more dramatic gravity. The colour and sound of the lightsabres gave those scenes a frisson of energy all by themselves. You lose that when your Jedi are doing cartwheels and your Sith is standing on his head.

I agree with most of that. With out a doubt the best duel to me is the one on Bespin, for many reasons. I agree with Whiskey in saying the prequels were too choregraphed, it never felt like they were trying to kill eachother, just dance and make sure they hit eachother's lightsaber. In the Bespin Duel there were many things going for it, the tension of a great villain like Vader finally fighting the young naive Luke.

But what made it best I think was they actually were trying to kill one another, same went with ROTJ as well. But the blows they were dealing to one another were to hurt/kill the other, not just hit their lightsabers together so they can do a dance. Vader was going all out to take Luke down. To me that gave it the gravity, and hard hitting feel.

I think with the new trilogy they have to find a blend of the prequel and OT. First have it make sense to the story, and not just be a duel for the sake of it. Have tension, and characters we care about most of all. But mix the fast paced action of the PT with the gravity "meaning they are actually trying to kill one another". Have the characters getting scuffed up. That is what made the ESB duel so great is Luke was getting bloodied up, beaten and bruised.

Also having good dialogue/taunting from the villain is needed, Dooku and the others were weak, and Maul was non-existent. Vader taunting Luke still gives me chills.

EDIT: To add to this you need one main villain throughout the trilogy. The problem with the prequel there was never one bad guy. It gives gravity to the story, and we learn to hate/fear them more. Having one per movie and hardly being a character at all (Dooku/Maul) just does not give enough time to fear the villain. Vader fighting Luke in ESB had so much weight to it because the last time we had seen him he had killed his mentor/friend. I remember as a kid just getting so excited the first time I saw Vader/Luke fight on Bespin.

 

[Tacit Ronin]

I equate the duels in the OT to the first Bane vs Batman fight. The choreography in neither case are that special, but it is offset by cinematography, sound design and awesome dialogue. The ballets fights in the PT share none of the cinematic artistry.

 

[ThePhantasm]

The Empire Strikes Back lightsaber duel is still the best in the series in my opinion, and I don't say that because of the reveal at the end.

There's a point at which duels can become so focused on being artistic, dance-like, and full of "cool moves" that they lose the edge of suspense and character dynamics. I mean, sure Maul's moves might look cool but he's the most two-dimensional villain ever. He's just there as a lightsaber-action setpiece, not as a character.

 

[Solidus]

I equate the duels in the OT to the first Bane vs Batman fight. The choreography in neither case are that special, but it is offset by cinematography, sound design and awesome dialogue. The ballets fights in the PT share none of the cinematic artistry.

The first Bane vs Batman fight was the highlight of that film to me, and with out a doubt Nolan's best action sequence. I really loved the hard hitting nature and that is what is needed back in the new trilogy. However I will say I would like a mixture of that still. One of my favorite action sequences of all time comes from X2 with Wolverine vs Lady Deathstrike. It was so visceral and yet hard hitting, it was like two animals going nuts on each other. I think Singer found the balance in that scene and that's what I want to see. A visceral fast, yet hard hitting and emotional at the same time. It may be hard to do, but it can be done.

Every lightsaber blow should be felt, and in the OT that was the case.

The Empire Strikes Back lightsaber duel is still the best in the series in my opinion, and I don't say that because of the reveal at the end.

There's a point at which duels can become so focused on being artistic, dance-like, and full of "cool moves" that they lose the edge of suspense and character dynamics. I mean, sure Maul's moves might look cool but he's the most two-dimensional villain ever. He's just there as a lightsaber-action setpiece, not as a character.

Agreed. Maul looked cool, but that was about it. I did not fear him. It can't be visuals alone you have to build the character. By Empire everyone cowered to Vader. You learned how dangerous he was, (ask Captain Needa aka don't apologize to Vader). You feared Vader because of his actions. Just standing there in the middle of a doorway and looking scary does nothing, you have to do more and actually have a character there. Vader was central to all the plots, the bad guys need this in the new trilogy. You should be afraid of the villain, hell people still get a lump in their throat in Empire when the Falcon goes into lightspeed finally at the end. You had the actual lump in your throat that Piett did....like oh oh....someone might die.

I do want some awesome dialogue in there, that is what I loved about the duels, Vader always said cool things. "Impressive......most impressive."

 

[Bim]

Every lightsaber blow should be felt, and in the OT that was the case.

I think part of this had to do with the fact that in the OT the lightsabers were meant to be heavy. If i remember right Mark Hamill said in some interview that Lucas has said that the lightsabers were powerful weapons and them hitting each other exuded such power that the lightsabers had to be held with two hands. This isnt word for word what he said, but he said something along those lines. If that's the case, of course the choreography in the OT makes perfect sense. Also, u had half man-half droid, old men and the kid who learned to handle a lightsaber a little bit duel each other. I dont think something faster than what we saw would have made much sense. While i do think some of the PT choreography does look like a dance, i believe a clear differentiation from what we saw in the OT was needed. In the PT we had jedi in their prime, fully trained since childhood, the total opposite of the OT. Faster and more agile was the way to go.

For me the beauty of the OT lightsaber duels lie in the emotional undertones of each one: i dont really see them as physical duels. It's someone trying to get inside the other's head. In ANH Vader wanted to show Kenobi his superiority, but Kenobi was just stalling so Luke would get away. In ESB we had a father reveal himself to his son in order to get him to go along with his plan; i dont believe Vader ever meant to kill Luke or he would have, the kid was not an expert. In ROTJ we have a son trying to lure a father to the light, while the father tries to hide the cracks in his armor (so to speak lol). In the PT we had Obi-Wan fighting for his life after his master got killed, and of course the duel i had been waiting for: Vader vs Obi-Wan, and how Vader ended up in the armor. Yah, i knew they wouldnt die, but i do love that duel anyways.

I love that in ANH we see a psychological duel between Vader and Kenobi that i just adore, but i also enjoyed the physical duel they had in ROTS. The sense of peril is present for me in the Maul vs Qui-Gon/Obi duel. Despite him being a new jedi, i had no idea Qui-Gon would die when i went into the movie (thank heavens i wasnt among the ones who saw the track listing in the cd LOL). For me, there's room for both styles.

I look forward to seeing what they do in the next trilogy, assuming there are lightsaber duels coming up. Should be interesting to see where Luke takes the jedi next (i'm assuming this will be the case and we'll see at least the results of Luke's jedi order lol).

 

[Solidus]

Ya I never minded the reasoning behind it to a point, of course during the prime of the Jedi they would be much more efficient fighters, however I still felt that, that would not mean they could alter the power of the saber too much. But that is not my main concern.

I just found the dance duels to be empty was my problem. However I will say they had some great moments in Episode III during the final duel, there were moments of dance, but then there were some moments where you could tell they were trying to kill one another. And I still feel that was the case in ESB and ROTJ with Luke, even though Vader may have not been trying to kill him, he had no qualms cutting limbs off ect, they were trying to kill/hurt one another. Luke especially the man killed his mentor and brought pain to his friends.

But I think a mixture would work, have the fast paced experienced Jedi, mixed with more hard hitting, less choreographed dance and more actually trying to cut one another in half. And all the duels should be mental as well (as you mentioned) the bad guy should be trying to break him/her mentally and physically. So if they can find a balance I think that would make for some of the best duels.

 

[BATZARRO WWD]

To me that To add to this you need one main villain throughout the trilogy. The problem with the prequel there was never one bad guy. It gives gravity to the story, and we learn to hate/fear them more. Having one per movie and hardly being a character at all (Dooku/Maul) just does not give enough time to fear the villain. Vader fighting Luke in ESB had so much weight to it because the last time we had seen him he had killed his mentor/friend. I remember as a kid just getting so excited the first time I saw Vader/Luke fight on Bespin.

This. I think some of the villains had some bright spots to them, but constantly killing them and bringing others kinda botched it. What if Maul hadn't been killed off at the end of the movie, and we'd have gotten to see Obi Wan deal with this guy, who killed his master? What if Dooku had been built up to from Ep 1 and not just show up matter of factly in the middle of Ep 2? What if Jango Fett had held up one more movie? Outside the Emperor the only villain to last all 3 movies is
Nute Gunray. Does anyone like Nute Gunray at all? Be honest.

So I agree that some consistent villains should be at play. Doesn't have to be like, Darth Vader 2 or anything, just a threat that builds.

 

[Solidus]

No it does not have to be Vader 2.0, but in some ways I think whoever the villain does need to have some of the similarities. But I agree having a built arch creates more tension. I want to see the new villain do bad things. The problem with Dooku/Maul besides their "duels with the Jedi" they never did anything, except talk in a calm manner. You need to have a villain that may be unpredictable, and you fear every aspect of him.

Vader killed so many of his officers at will you knew that guy meant business. Ozzel, Needa and many others will causalities of this but created fear around the character. That sense of unpredictably really can go a long ways. I've heard good ideas who could play the villain, and yea I want differences, but similarities in general strokes. I want it when a duel is about to happen, tension just shoots through the roof.

 

[TheDreamMaster]

This. I think some of the villains had some bright spots to them, but constantly killing them and bringing others kinda botched it. What if Maul hadn't been killed off at the end of the movie, and we'd have gotten to see Obi Wan deal with this guy, who killed his master? What if Dooku had been built up to from Ep 1 and not just show up matter of factly in the middle of Ep 2? What if Jango Fett had held up one more movie? Outside the Emperor the only villain to last all 3 movies is
Nute Gunray. Does anyone like Nute Gunray at all? Be honest.

So I agree that some consistent villains should be at play. Doesn't have to be like, Darth Vader 2 or anything, just a threat that builds.

Actually, I like Nute, not really as a villian, but as a chraacter, I do. He goes from arrogant and proud in Episode I, to cowardly and even more deceitful, to finally realizing he may have been wrong all along before being killed. And he has to know he's joined the wrong side, because he clearly shows no faith in Grevious as the leader of the armies with Dooku gone. He isn't the best chraacter, but he's stupid likaeable for me.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Here's another example of how the prequel duels were rather gimmicky in general: take General Grievous. His function in the movie was basically to give Obi-Wan something to do while Anakin goes bad. He is a walking gimmick with his four-saber fighting style which could be more interesting if coupled with a character who has more than two dimensions, but instead comes off as a quickly disposed of "cool moment." It was almost like they said "how can we top a double-bladed lightsaber? Oh, four lightsabers!" In the end Grievous was almost a joke - Obi-Wan defeated him really easily and never seemed to be in danger. Grievous was at least somewhat intimidating in the Clone Wars animated miniseries.

This is another reason why I've never understood the fascination with Boba Fett. His armor is awesomely cool of course, but in the films he is a two-dimensional character who gets defeated by a blind Han Solo. Granted, he (and many of these characters) are given a lot more story and oomph and life in the EU, but its hard for me to back-import all of that into the films with any meaningful result.

I remember in an interview on the Phantom Menace DVD Lucas says something about how in the Old Trilogy the lightsaber duels were between "an old guy, a cyborg, and an untrained Jedi" and so TPM gave him an opportunity to show how Jedi in their prime really fight. But as we've seen from Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda, age really is not an inhibiting factor for Jedi / Sith combatants. So I really would have preferred that the duels have been kept somewhat stylistically consistent between the trilogies. There are ways to make duels exciting that don't require elaborate martial arts... and that's through having a good story.

 

[Solidus]

Here's another example of how the prequel duels were rather gimmicky in general: take General Grievous. His function in the movie was basically to give Obi-Wan something to do while Anakin goes bad. He is a walking gimmick with his four-saber fighting style which could be more interesting if coupled with a character who has more than two dimensions, but instead comes off as a quickly disposed of "cool moment." It was almost like they said "how can we top a double-bladed lightsaber? Oh, four lightsabers!" In the end Grievous was almost a joke - Obi-Wan defeated him really easily and never seemed to be in danger. Grievous was at least somewhat intimidating in the Clone Wars animated miniseries.

This is another reason why I've never understood the fascination with Boba Fett. His armor is awesomely cool of course, but in the films he is a two-dimensional character who gets defeated by a blind Han Solo. Granted, he (and many of these characters) are given a lot more story and oomph and life in the EU, but its hard for me to back-import all of that into the films with any meaningful result.

I remember in an interview on the Phantom Menace DVD Lucas says something about how in the Old Trilogy the lightsaber duels were between "an old guy, a cyborg, and an untrained Jedi" and so TPM gave him an opportunity to show how Jedi in their prime really fight. But as we've seen from Dooku, Sidious, and Yoda, age really is not an inhibiting factor for Jedi / Sith combatants. So I really would have preferred that the duels have been kept somewhat stylistically consistent between the trilogies. There are ways to make duels exciting that don't require elaborate martial arts... and that's through having a good story.

I agree and disagree with some of these things. Fett was so cool just because he was the deadly quiet type, and looked cool. But by no means was he the best character ever, it was just especially after Empire he was just seen as a BA. But I was never super obsessed with him, but he had a unique style to him that I loved and still do.

I do agree about age should not be a factor but let's not kid ourselves, the real reason for the difference of the duels were simply technology. And I don't mind the idea (even as a kid way way way before the prequels) I always imagined that the Jedi could do some pretty awesome stuff, and use the Force in other ways. However I do agree that you should not go overboard, and have it be like a bunch of Supermen, and use the excuse "oh they used the force" for everything. So there is a balance needed. That's why I'm hoping for a mixture of the two duel styles, fast and elegant mixed with hard hitting. But as I said its not just the style that was the problem in the PT, it was the mixture of villains with hardly any weight like Vader, lack of tension and development of characters through out. I think if you mix those things with a little more speed you can have the best of both worlds in a wonderful combination.

 

[Darthphere]

The Phantasm's post just reminds me how pissed I was when Anakin duel-wielded lightsabers for all of 3 seconds.

 

[Gianakin_]

The first Ryan/Dorkman vid was better. And cut them a little slack, it was two kids making a home lightsaber vid. Although Ryan did land a job at ILM because of it.

Don't get me wrong, I like them. But I'm just responding to Viral's wish for them getting to do the choreographies in the official movies. Which is a big no.

 

[Gianakin_]

The Phantasm's post just reminds me how pissed I was when Anakin duel-wielded lightsabers for all of 3 seconds.

The editing of the AotC duel(s) is atrocious. Ben Burtt should've never gotten that post for the PT.

 

[Gianakin_]

I think part of this had to do with the fact that in the OT the lightsabers were meant to be heavy. If i remember right Mark Hamill said in some interview that Lucas has said that the lightsabers were powerful weapons and them hitting each other exuded such power that the lightsabers had to be held with two hands. This isnt word for word what he said, but he said something along those lines. If that's the case, of course the choreography in the OT makes perfect sense. Also, u had half man-half droid, old men and the kid who learned to handle a lightsaber a little bit duel each other. I dont think something faster than what we saw would have made much sense. While i do think some of the PT choreography does look like a dance, i believe a clear differentiation from what we saw in the OT was needed. In the PT we had jedi in their prime, fully trained since childhood, the total opposite of the OT. Faster and more agile was the way to go.

For me the beauty of the OT lightsaber duels lie in the emotional undertones of each one: i dont really see them as physical duels. It's someone trying to get inside the other's head. In ANH Vader wanted to show Kenobi his superiority, but Kenobi was just stalling so Luke would get away. In ESB we had a father reveal himself to his son in order to get him to go along with his plan; i dont believe Vader ever meant to kill Luke or he would have, the kid was not an expert. In ROTJ we have a son trying to lure a father to the light, while the father tries to hide the cracks in his armor (so to speak lol). In the PT we had Obi-Wan fighting for his life after his master got killed, and of course the duel i had been waiting for: Vader vs Obi-Wan, and how Vader ended up in the armor. Yah, i knew they wouldnt die, but i do love that duel anyways.

I love that in ANH we see a psychological duel between Vader and Kenobi that i just adore, but i also enjoyed the physical duel they had in ROTS. The sense of peril is present for me in the Maul vs Qui-Gon/Obi duel. Despite him being a new jedi, i had no idea Qui-Gon would die when i went into the movie (thank heavens i wasnt among the ones who saw the track listing in the cd LOL). For me, there's room for both styles.

I look forward to seeing what they do in the next trilogy, assuming there are lightsaber duels coming up. Should be interesting to see where Luke takes the jedi next (i'm assuming this will be the case and we'll see at least the results of Luke's jedi order lol).

Pretty much agreed. Also, I never minded that the PT never had a single villain that was built up. I think that was the point. Interchangeable villains until Sid got the one who was there to stay: Vader. I understand why people don't like this choice made by Lucas, but it's one of the reasons why the PT resonated with me.

 

[Viral]

I'm just responding to Viral's wish for them getting to do the choreographies in the official movies.

God forbid. Where did I say that?
The point of the article was that they should hire "as consultants or something" such people mainly for their passion and enthusiasm for the movies. As Joe Carnahan said: "The priority should be injecting the same sense of astonishment & wonder we all felt when we watched the first STAR WARS. That's job one. No?"
I'm very far from the idea these kids to choreograph the lightsaber fights in the upcoming movies.

 

[Gianakin_]

Apologies for the misunderstanding, but in my defense, you said "Get these guys for Episode 7", so I thought you wanted them for a more vital part. Even as consultants I think they're the wrong people, though.

 

[regwec]

The more cautiously paced duels of the OT worked so well partly because they contrasted with the furious but largely inconsequential shoot-outs between the crew and legions of stormtroopers. When you heard the shatter-and-hum of a lightaber being ignited, everything suddenly slowed down. You knew that this moment mattered; someone might die, or something big might change.

 

[Gianakin_]

Well yes, also keep in mind that there were no Jedi or their religion in the OT, so when a lightsaber was being drawn, it was kind of a monumental moment.

 

[Viral]

Apologies for the misunderstanding,

No problems at all.

By the way am I the only one who thinks that the guy with the glasses really has a resemblance with Hayden Christensen in some of the shots? Not that it means anything, but...

 

[Gianakin_]

A manlier version of him, perhaps.

 

[Viral]

And speaking of fan films...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LF9Qk6m_b74

It's again old but a good one.