BvS Gods and Men, and other themes

[gdw]

So, this is obviously pretty in your face thematically, and not only important to the film, but the greater DCEU.

It's what sets DC apart from Marvel, and I LOVE that it is in full force in this movie.

What I also love is that it moved from religious allegory, to mythology.

It may seem ironic that I loved this aspect so much, considering I HATED the heavy handed Christ imagery in MOS and Superman Returns.

While I'm fine with the Christ, and Moses parallels in the character, especially considering the obvious inspiration.
I just hate when it's in your face heavy handed imagery. It's too on the nose, and redundant, really.

So, the shift to more mythology over heavy handed Christ allegory is nice.

Obviously the introduction of Batman, and Luthor, plays right into these themes.

Batman's place a man among gods is one of my favourite aspects of the Justice League.

One thing which I think has been ignored, or horribly misunderstood, in the film, which plays into the theme, is the ending of the title fight.

[blackout] While the shared name is the catalyst, it's not, itself, the cause of the "resolution."

It's the empathy that it allows Bruce, to finally humanize the Superman.
It's the juxtaposition of this to Bruce's mini "speech", "you're not a man." "You were never a god." etc. Don't recall the exact wording.

Any who, Bruce's pontificating is, ultimately, for himself. It's part of his rationalization, his attempt to justify himself, by dehumanizing the being he sees before him.

The realization that he has a mother, that he has a life, that he is much more than just his actions, wakes Bruce up from the rage by which he is blinded.

The shared name of their mothers' was merely the coincidence that stopped Bruce, allowing him the chance to open his eyes, and see the man in the 'god' under his boot. [/blackout]

Any who, thought this could be a place to discuss the larger themes, of the film, and the questions it poses.
Many critics claimed that the film raised many heavy questions, but never answered them.
Personally, I think this is only partially true.

I think that plenty of the questions raised are followed through with Bruce's arc, and will continue on through the JL films.

Also, I think that some questions and themes were in fact left unanswered, and that WAS the answer.

 

[The Guard]

Great idea for a thread, but Christ is all over this movie too.

 

[gdw]

Great idea for a thread, but Christ is all over this movie too.

Oh, absolutely, but it is also recontectualized by the more myth framing of this film.

 

[terry78]

All superheroes are metaphors for higher powers. Some writers allude to it, others outright say it. This is maybe the first cbm I've seen where they actually get pretty deep into it though. I'm abput 95% sure that was all Terrio.

 

[JaD]

I guess this is appropriate for this thread but my friend and I were talking about the scene of Supes pulling the ship on the ice on the drive home. Since it was part of a montage of him helping people around the world (being a savior) I didn't understand what it was first but I think it's more of a visual metaphor of him looking like a labored worker (don't wanna use the word slave since that's a bit strong of what I'm getting at) during these times and possibly another savior metaphor. Like Jesus carrying the cross to his crucifixion.

I don't know if anyone else got that from that shot but that's what I take from it now, at the very least looking like a labored worker.

 

[terry78]

I notice a lot of comic.media is trying to do more biblical type metaphors these days.

 

[gdw]

I guess this is appropriate for this thread but my friend and I were talking about the scene of Supes pulling the ship on the ice on the drive home. Since it was part of a montage of him helping people around the world (being a savior) I didn't understand what it was first but I think it's more of a visual metaphor of him looking like a labored worker (don't wanna use the word slave since that's a bit strong of what I'm getting at) during these times and possibly another savior metaphor. Like Jesus carrying the cross to his crucifixion.

I don't know if anyone else got that from that shot but that's what I take from it now, at the very least looking like a labored worker.

It was certainly was meant to feel like the trials and tribulations of Superman.

 

[The Guard]

It's definitely meant to suggest that it's a burden. Him dragging that enormous weight in the ship juxtaposed with the voiceover drives it home. Let's be honest. It would be a burden. That's not an easy job. He's very uncomfortable with being seen as a savior.

From a Christ Figure standpoint, there's a lot of it in this film.

Aside from the obvious death/ressurrection of a savior element...

The Kryptonite spear has major religious relevance, the spear of his "destiny" is handled in a way that is quite similar to Jesus bearing his cross. He falls several times in his final battle/"carrying the cross".

Someone helps him carry the cross (Lois) when he is too weak to do so.

When he dies, he is wrapped in his cloak, similar to Jesus being wrapped in robes, and lowered to the Earth by Batman (who was the one who doubted/persecuted him).

There are also two symbolic crosses to the left of his death scene in the film, similar to the crosses near Jesus.

 

[gdw]

I felt they rectified a bit of the heavy handed Christ I parallels in those 9one. Especially with the

Spoiler

"Maybe he's not some kind of Devil or Jesus figure, maybe he's just a guy trying to do the right thing."

. . .

Yeah, but I think what I mean is it was more part of a larger philosophical discussion.

Also, as an atheist, I really kinda like seeing a predominant modern religion being placed more at the same 'level' as/part of the myth/philosophical discussion.

 

[batmop]

Great topic, and so many things to discuss. I have to watch the movie again to remember it all.

For Luthor, they used some heavy classical music elements in the score. That juxtaposed with some of the cinematography, art direction, and style of Luthor's scenes was just brilliant IMHO. In some scenes Luthor gave off a vibe of a mad scientist, a Dr. Frankenstein type. In other scenes he gave off a 100% Luthor vibe, but in a fresh way and without being generic.

A lot of focus of course was on Batman and Superman. Batman is man amongst the gods so to speak, but then what is Luthor? A man who considers himself equal to, or above the gods?

Luthor's characterization was extremely clever, in terms of how he setup Superman to look like a much bigger false god than he actually was, and led to the setup of making Superman and Batman fight each other.

 

[gdw]

As a Catholic, I kinda prefer when they don't compare Superman to Jesus, simply because he's more of a Moses figure in my eyes.

It's not even because I feel that it's sacrilegious, but more that I feel it's a crutch for writers of a Superman story - they don't get Clark on their own, so they write him to be a Jesus parallel as a cheap way of making Clark seem "deep" to the audience.

I have to say though it doesn't bother me that much. I'm more bothered by political agendas of any kind in fiction or writers pushing their viewpoints, however subtle.

Pretty much agree with on all that there.

I don't mind it being there, as the parallels are apparent, so much as, yeah, when it's a cruch, or heavy handed over emphasizing the obvious, like on Superman Returns, and MOS.

I'd like to see more of the Moses parallels pulled upon for stories and interpretations. Especially with the leadership side, etc.
Plenty of untapped potential there.

 

[The Guard]

Can't he reflect both? He's pretty much the archetypal savior. He could draw from all kinds of mythological/religious influences.

 

[gdw]

I was just thinking about Snyder's comments on wanting Bruce to form the League.

At first I took it as being what most did, "oh, Batman's it will be cool, and I just want Batman to do it."
However, looking at it in light of the Gods and Men themes, it actually makes perfect sense.

If it were the "gods" who were gathering themselves, essentially forming and appointing themselves their own little board/government, it would be almost dictatorial, and imposing themselves on humanity.
However, if it's Bruce, being the "man" who walks among "gods", it keeps it more, I feel, in line with the themes established.

While there are a LOT of things I was hoping for that we will never get, like Bruce figuring out who Superman is, and the reluctant "not a joiner" Batman, The directions they're going make sense with the world and themes they've established.

 

[gdw]

Can't he reflect both? He's pretty much the archetypal savior. He could draw from all kinds of mythological/religious influences.

Yes, absolutely, which was kind of my point in what I liked with what they were doing in this film.

While the savior angle is still leaned on heavily, it's lumped in with the more general, greater gods and mythology discussion.

 

[Tvar10]

I thought 2 things really stood out to me

Spoiler

During the fight Batman picked up Superman over his shoulder, Supermans arms and body looked like a cross...like when Jesus carried the cross. Could be some sort of symbolism of Batman carrying a burden his whole life like Jesus carried the burden of our sins in the cross

and

when Batman wrapped Superman in his cape and gently lowered him to Wonder Woman. Very reminiscent of the Roman soldiers wrapping Jesus up in cloth after his crucifixion and lowering him down to the Virgin Mary

 

[The Guard]

Random thought.

Is Zod an archetypal Lucifer? Fallen angel after a war in Heaven (Krypton), reborn as the devil?

 

[Uroboric Forms]

I guess this is appropriate for this thread but my friend and I were talking about the scene of Supes pulling the ship on the ice on the drive home. Since it was part of a montage of him helping people around the world (being a savior) I didn't understand what it was first but I think it's more of a visual metaphor of him looking like a labored worker (don't wanna use the word slave since that's a bit strong of what I'm getting at) during these times and possibly another savior metaphor. Like Jesus carrying the cross to his crucifixion.

I don't know if anyone else got that from that shot but that's what I take from it now, at the very least looking like a labored worker.

I saw him flying with the kryptonite spear as a closer 'carrying the cross' metaphor

 

[Decepticonus]

I saw more of a spear of destiny or Spear of Longinus within the context of Batman. It wasn't enough he use synthesized kryptonite and beat Superman to a pulp, he had to make sure Jesus-er Superman was dead so he had to use the spear, much like the Roman Longinus did to Christ after his crucifixion.

 

[The Guard]

I think it's both.

The spear is one, the Kryptonite is the other.