Gotham Gotham Season 2, Episode 2 "Knock, Knock" General Discussion

[Cobblepot]

Lucius is an idiot...he's trying to fix the ram on those computers...all he needs to do is put the harddrive's in another one.

 

[terry78]

This is pre-Batman Lucius. He's not a genius yet, he's just a dude that likes to mess with computers.

 

[Lencho01]

The episode was pretty good. Sad to see Essen go.

 

[Venomfan]

Jerome's not acting the least bit like Heath's Joker.

the way he acted in the camera scene at the end was ridiculously similar. He did some of the exact same things. played with the guys face in a jokey manner and got his face all up in the camera and did a deep scary voice. Watch both those scenes and its super obvious. Otherwise I don't really notice any similarities, but i found that scene embarrassing because of how copied it was.

 

[Slade W]

Jerome's terrible. The acting, the writing, it's just bad. Entertainingly so, though.

Pretty much my thoughts. I thought he was better in season 1 personally but his acting has not been as good this season IMO. Like you said though, I still find him entertaining. Like this show, Jerome is silly and bad a lot of the time but for some strange, unexplainable reason, I feel compelled to keep watching and find out what happens next.

 

[hellblazer103]

This episode's pace was consistent with the premier, and it's a strong pace that moved the Bruce plot farther along than three or four of last year's episodes while also featuring engaging progress on the main front.

Galavan's still an interesting enigma, and he's still probably the biggest question mark for me. The actor's doing a great job, but I'm still curious as to who this guy is and hwy he does what he does. So I guess the creators are succeeding in that part of their gambit.

Now, here's my thoughts on Jerome when it comes to how far he resembles the regular Joker. The biggest single difference at the moment is how willing he is to be Galavan's attack dog; Lex Luthor could pull something similar, but Galavan's plans seem to already have a post-Jerome phase...

Now, here's my thoughts: Galavan and Jerome inevitably fall out, albeit probably without any personal hatred other than maniacal glee on Jerome's side. Jerome than sets up the Red Hood gang, forming it into the organization we're used to. Jerome is the leader and acts just as theatrically, but for his own benefit. He also starts using decoys, who act similarly. Then, we see a Red hood leader die, but we don't know if it was Jerome or not, we just know the leader of the Hoods keeps acting the same.

i actually hope this turns out to be the case.

if jerome truly isn't the joker, this or something similar would be the next best alternative.

 

[jonathancrane]

I like to think that the actors playing and voicing the Joker build off each other. There is plenty of Caesar Romero's Joker in Ledger's. And some of Ledger's and Nicholson's in the the performance of the actor playing Jerome.

 

[hellblazer103]

I like to think that the actors playing and voicing the Joker build off each other. There is plenty of Caesar Romero's Joker in Ledger's. And some of Ledger's and Nicholson's in the the performance of the actor playing Jerome.

i always saw hamill as being more similar to romero than ledger. to each their own, though.

 

[Venomfan]

if he doesn't become Joker, than the Joker in this universe is just going to be an imitation of a previous character, which would be pretty lame

 

[Lilbaz]

Love Jerome. Enjoying the episodes so far.

Can't wait for him to meet Bruce.

Remember people, this is gotham not DC batman. It is a different universe where anything cn happen (as long as WB ok it).

 

[Lamashtar]

the way he acted in the camera scene at the end was ridiculously similar. He did some of the exact same things. played with the guys face in a jokey manner and got his face all up in the camera and did a deep scary voice. Watch both those scenes and its super obvious. Otherwise I don't really notice any similarities, but i found that scene embarrassing because of how copied it was.

Yes, no one has ever played with a severed head and made it speak before, that was the very first time on screen EVAR!!!11 It's almost as if they're playing the same character!

I could see bits of all the previous Jokers in Jerome, and I liked it. At times it was so good, I felt like I was watching a deleted scene from Batman '89. On another note, I was startlingly reminded of Danny Elfman's early stage performances. Maybe its just a ginger thing..

I'm not impressed by Galavan, though, *shrug*. He did well in the Russian roulette scene.

It was a relief that the cheerleaders survived. We've seen that sort of slaughter in these 'dark' universes, it's lost shock value and just comes across as tired splatter porn now. It was the save that was the surprise.

I find Batboy to be the weakest part of the show. I might be prejudiced, since the Gotham comic was about everything Not-Batman. But whenever we switch from the main storyline of fighting Gotham's crazy to this spoiled overly-influential child, I groan. If it were more like Smallville, and this show was all about just watching Bruce grow up and interact, I might be interested. "Will Bruce have the same feelings for Silver St. Cloud that he did in the comic? Will he forget Selina?" I'd just rather the two storylines split up into different shows. We'd have different expectations and the various characters doing a crossover would be exciting, like when Arrow crosses with Flash.

I loved the goofy old computer though. I presume that they're focusing on fixing it rather than just getting a new computer to run it through because they're still trying to seem old-ish, pre-modern era.Perhaps Bruce's father's computer was like an old Cray computer, however big and clunky, still able to perform 200x faster than the TRS-80 Tandy computers of the day..?

I don't disagree that whiny Barbara Keane was boring, but it was a major turn from the character first presented to us, who seemed capable and possessed of her own integrity that rivaled Jim Gordon's. Why hate the man she dumped? Why not go after Montoya, who harassed her when she had a good relationship, then lost interest in Barbara once she had her because relationships are hard omg? At this point, they need a transformation to get her out of this rut. Becoming Harley Quinn, Joker's bimbo slave, would be truly pathetic. She needs to break out of the previous storylines, or become a villain in her own right that relies on no one else.

Alfred's bizarre slang choices when threatening Lucius made me cringe. What were they thinking? It reminded me of an Australian critiquing Captain Boomarang in the Suicide Squad--"Yes, those are all Aussie slang words, but we don't use them all at the same time!" The only fanwank I can think of is that Alfred thought of Cockney gangsters as threatening, so when he wanted to act "gangster" he went for all the Cockney-isms he could think of. Still wondering what "tucked him like a kipper" meant in the real world.

I like someone else's idea of parallel universe--Jim Gordon becomes Batman, Bruce is Robin..

 

[The Guard]

This whole "Heath's Joker" thing...

To a point. There are elements of it there. But, as I've said before, Heath Ledger is not the first person to choose to do a whiny, high-pitched voice for the character. When Jerome starts obsessively licking his lips and doing all the Ledger Joker mannerisms, then we can talk.

Beyond that, the character of Jerome clearly has elements of a number of Joker incarnations to him. Ledger's being one of them.

Yes, the "video" scene obviously reminds us somewhat of Heath's Joker, but it's probably very much supposed to. The whole point of the use of the character, at least the broader use of him is "maybe this guy becomes the character you know in the future". For most of the general public, that is associated with Heath Ledger's Joker, not the comics, maybe not Nicholson or Hamill's versions anymore. It's more an homage and foreshadowing than an outright ripoff, I think. They're also setting up a Nolan-like role for Lucious Fox. Not an accident.

I think he's doing a nice job. He has moments where he's brilliant. The one thing I notice about Jerome is that he's not scary. His actions can be. But his "dark persona" is mostly manic and annoying and not very funny, as has been pointed out several times. I think that's very much intentional. That's classic Joker to me.

 

[The Joker]

Jerome's terrible. The acting, the writing, it's just bad.

After just watching his clips from this episode, I wholeheartedly agree. Even though I've stopped watching this show I had to watch his encore performance to see if he had improved at all since last season, since we're talking the Joker here. He's actually gotten worse. It didn't help that he was trying to imitate Ledger's Joker even more this time. It's no wonder some of the media have been calling him things like a 'mini Heath Ledger';http://filmschoolrejects.com/features/gotham-recap-the-joker.php

Even Monaghan describes his Joker in words just like TDK's;

Jerome Valeska could turn into the Joker any minute now. Cameron Monaghan's description of what Jerome wants is eerily similar to what Heath Ledger's Joker wanted in the film 'The Dark Knight.'

"I think he wants everything to burn. If he had his way, he would continue to destroy everything around him for as long as possible," Monaghan said of Jerome. "He's this burning fire that is rapidly expanding in all ways. Jerome enjoys the act of destruction."

http://www.foodworldnews.com/articl...monaghan-talks-about-jerome-valeska-joker.htm

I hear their version of Lucius Fox is also looking like it's based on Morgan Freeman's.

 

[Venomfan]

Yes, no one has ever played with a severed head and made it speak before, that was the very first time on screen EVAR!!!11 It's almost as if they're playing the same character!
[/I]

huh, severed head?
I'm talking about this scene
[YT]FRiZ2wAFb3s[/YT]
I don't know how people wouldn't notice that this scene is totally taken from TDK. Even if stuff like it has been done before in other movies (can't think of any that are as close in mannerisms and filming style as TDK though), why would you copy a movie that used the exact same character (assuming he ends up as the joker)

 

[PretenderNX01]

I honestly don't see Ledger's Joker in all these other Jokers. If anything Jerome seems like a darker Cesar Romero to me.

Ledger's Joker was very calculating, Leto's seems very twitchy and Jerome and Romero have these moments of hooting and hollering while also sort of somber moments of clarity in the showmanship.

I hear their version of Lucius Fox is also looking like it's based on Morgan Freeman's.

Oh totally, they're both black and intelligent. Just the same other than completely different acting styles.

 

[jonathancrane]

huh, severed head?
I'm talking about this scene
[YT]FRiZ2wAFb3s[/YT]
I don't know how people wouldn't notice that this scene is totally taken from TDK. Even if stuff like it has been done before in other movies (can't think of any that are as close in mannerisms and filming style as TDK though), why would you copy a movie that used the exact same character (assuming he ends up as the joker)

And Nolan has not copied from other filmmakers? In this case, another major franchise: the Bond films. He Control+C'd the mountain siege from On Her Majesty's Secret Service in Inception, and the plane hijack from 'Rises was stolen from one of the 1980's Bond films (I keep thinking License to Kill.)

 

[The Joker]

huh, severed head?
I'm talking about this scene
[YT]FRiZ2wAFb3s[/YT]
I don't know how people wouldn't notice that this scene is totally taken from TDK. Even if stuff like it has been done before in other movies (can't think of any that are as close in mannerisms and filming style as TDK though), why would you copy a movie that used the exact same character (assuming he ends up as the joker)

I honestly don't see Ledger's Joker in all these other Jokers. If anything Jerome seems like a darker Cesar Romero to me.

That's strange considering this guy;

Bruno Heller, the head of this show, said "It’s certainly going to be more Heath Ledger than Cesar Romero"

http://screencrush.com/fox-gotham-batman-joker-harvey-dent-bruno-heller/

Oh totally, they're both black and intelligent. Just the same other than completely different acting styles.

I mean Lucius is being written as a tech head, something he never was portrayed as until Batman Begins. Before that he was just a business man who competently ran Wayne Enterprises and never went near anything technical. But ever since Nolan's movies he's started to be written as a technical wiz. Even the video games like Arkham Knight have done it (including him knowing Bruce is Batman, also taken from the Nolan movies).

And Nolan has not copied from other filmmakers? In this case, another major franchise: the Bond films. He Control+C'd the mountain siege from On Her Majesty's Secret Service in Inception, and the plane hijack from 'Rises was stolen from one of the 1980's Bond films (I keep thinking License to Kill.)

That's not the point. A lot, if not most directors do that sort of thing. There's no shame in it, any more than it's shameful to have taken inspiration from Ledger's Joker. It's just another example of borrowing/being inspired by a great movie. He's saying the denials that this was not based on TDK's Joker, when it blatantly was, are silly.

 

[jonathancrane]

Fair enough. I guess the larger question is who cares? While The Dark Knight is the current pinnacle of blockbuster cinema, I prefer Gotham more, as it is not as pretentious, nor afraid to embrace the comics, instead of secularizing them.

 

[The Joker]

Fair enough. I guess the larger question is who cares?

The people who for some reason are denying the obvious.

While The Dark Knight is the current pinnacle of blockbuster cinema, I prefer Gotham more, as it is not as pretentious, nor afraid to embrace the comics, instead of secularizing them.

Neither was TDK. I see more comic book influence on Joker alone then I do in 90% of the comic book movie characters done in other CBMs and shows; http://jokerfans.blogspot.ie/

It's why the comics, video games, TV shows, and even other movies, both comic and non comic book ones have drawn inspiration from it. It's not just still the pinnacle of blockbuster cinema after 7 years, but one of the pinnacles of Batman, too. And will be for many years to come, IMO.

In fact the show runners of 'Gotham' say you have Nolan's Batman to thank for helping their show be possible; http://batman-news.com/2014/09/13/christopher-nolans-batman-reboot-helped-make-gotham-possible/

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Chesterfield]

Great episode and Jerome is knocking it out the park. Couldn't care less if he's aping previous joker performances; at the end of the day, his performance is good, entertaining and recognisable as the clown prince of crime.

 

[CEREBRAL....]

Love Jerome. Enjoying the episodes so far.

Can't wait for him to meet Bruce.

Remember people, this is gotham not DC batman. It is a different universe where anything cn happen (as long as WB ok it).

I agree with you 100%, it's disappointing to come in here and the firstthing I see is people wanting to compare this joker to ledgers...like come on people. This is "Gotham's" portrayal of a PRE-joker (might I add) and I see nothing wrong with it, I think the episode and the portrayal has been good and very entertaining.

 

[Slade W]

The people who for some reason are denying the obvious.



Neither was TDK. I see more comic book influence on Joker alone then I do in 90% of the comic book movie characters done in other CBMs and shows; http://jokerfans.blogspot.ie/

It's why the comics, video games, TV shows, and even other movies, both comic and non comic book ones have drawn inspiration from it. It's not just still the pinnacle of blockbuster cinema after 7 years, but one of the pinnacles of Batman, too. And will be for many years to come, IMO.

In fact the show runners of 'Gotham' say you have Nolan's Batman to thank for helping their show be possible; http://batman-news.com/2014/09/13/christopher-nolans-batman-reboot-helped-make-gotham-possible/

I don't disagree with you on this but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on why TDK is the pinnacle of blockbuster cinema. Is it because it was both a massive critical and financial success in addition to influencing other films? Those are some of the reasons I feel it is up there with the greatest and biggest blockbusters.

 

[The Joker]

I don't disagree with you on this but I would be interested to hear your thoughts on why TDK is the pinnacle of blockbuster cinema. Is it because it was both a massive critical and financial success in addition to influencing other films? Those are some of the reasons I feel it is up there with the greatest and biggest blockbusters.

I don't want to go off topic and turn this into a TDK discussion thread. I'll PM you my thoughts if you like.