Discussion in 'Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice' started by The Valeyard, Nov 20, 2013.
I agree with this line of thinking.
I guess the writers of Smallville we're lazy too huh? How about you write a screenplay and submit it to the WB. If they like it then we could see your Supes on screen in about 20 years. I just don't get all this hate on Goyer, like it's been said over and over he is a great idea man and he is obviously crafting a DCU on the big screen for us to enjoy. I just wish he had a hand in the Green Lantern movie, just imagine how much better that would have been.
One of my biggest fears for this movie was that they would have gotten rid of the glasses disguise all together. I'm so happy they kept that inherently silly and cheeky part of the mythos, It's too lovable and integral to the whole Clark Kent/Superman thing to lose. I loved the last scene!
I don't really demand or crave an eleborate explanation for it either. A simple in-universe thing will due – as it has many times before.
I'm fine with quite a few people knowing the secret though, that's a nice way to ground it a little bit, without going too far and taking all the fun out of it.
Why do they need to pull it off? Why not do something different?
They could just carbon copy everything that has been done before and dick the audience around with the dramatic irony but they chose to do the opposite. They decided the challenge the idea and give us an actual relationship between Lois and Clark one that hasn't been seen on the big screen. They have a real partnership now and their adoration for each other is based on who they actually are and not God-like hero and lovesick girl that they've have been portrayed as for decades.
Their decision to go against what's been done before is the opposite of lazy.
That's a good one
Kudos for writing down the most stupid thing I had the displeasure to read on these boards for months.
I really like this direction they're going in. I'm all for it, but unfortunately, I didn't see any "actual relationship" in this film.
I have no problem with the decision, I have no problem with changing a few things when you have to give your version of a story. The execution in the other hand is so lazy and lackluster that it diminished the impact of the changes they made. Had it been handled better I would have no problem with it at all.
Do what they did in birthright for Clark. Not complicated. Change his posture, mannerisms, make the voice a little higher, etc.
How was the execution lazy?
The foundations were put down for it though. A trust, friendship, attraction etc. You weren't expecting a full blown relationship were you?
Based on the way Goyer described it as a 'way out' to avoid issues with Lois and the Clark/Superman identity, I'd describe it as lazy.
And unfortunately that supposed relationship never came to pass onscreen. The film took a lot of heat for the dynamic between them being completely forced and contrived. Personally I think a lot of that has to do with Lois knowing from before he even became Superman. It nullified any tension between the characters and we ended up with a very stale 'relationship.'
That may work for comicbook fans who are already used to that kind of thing. But for general audiences, not so much. Letting the audience 'deal with it' is a lazy approach from the men supposedly committed to "redefining" Superman and making him modern and accessible to general audiences.
Really? You're using the writing on CW's Smallville has an echelon of quality?
I guess I'm speaking of their relationship going forward. I considered their relationship in MOS as merely a crush.
Given where the characters were at and the overall timeline of the film, that would be a ridiculous expectation, but the fact that the foundations were only just put down, made the kiss ring hollow. We all understand that there needs to be a kiss between the two leads in a superhero summer blockbuster, but given the context of the relationship up to that point and the situation, it didn't really feel appropriate or meaningful. Know what I mean? This is why I'm worried about Batman being a major player in the next film, a LOT less time to focus on Lois & Clark...
my work is done here. Need more??
He was putting to rest a point of contention by the GA and found a more interesting way to tell their story. Doing the same old thing is lazy.
And who gave it a lot of heat? I thought their relationship was good on screen. I completely bought their attraction to each other and why they would have a crush on one another.
The kiss is a heat of the moment thing. You just survived being pulled into the Phantom Zone and before that the destruction of the planet. I could forgive a kiss if that happened. Heck If I survived I'd be kissing anything near me.
Based on Goyer's comments in the podcast interview I linked, I think their relationship happens offscreen and by BvS they'll be an established couple.
Personally I still want them to do more character focus with Clark/Superman. We barely know who he is and how he thinks. While Batman Begins was a character study on Wayne's psychology, MoS barely touched on Clark's. It was all surface.
Here's some more:
People are mistaken for others all the time. And how many people get a good look at both Superman and Clark Kent?
No, i'm not just talking about comicbook fans. I think general audiences are used to that as his disguise, and honestly don't care that it wouldn't work in real life.
It'd be a bit more of a problem if they really had grounded the film in realism like they kept banging on about, but MOS was grounded in absolute fantasy IMO. There was very little of the real world in there for me.
Anything they try and include to justify the disguise is just going to get picked apart. People are going to rip into and discredit anything they say about why it would realistically work.
So why not just be open about the fact it doesn't, acknowledge that it's NOT the real world, and just let audiences enjoy the silliness of it.
Exactly. Will this end the debate? lol It should but it won't.
I agree that liberties should be taken and things should be changed to mix things up. Though, I'm not sure this specific change actually paid off in the way they wanted it to.
I was reading through the critical reviews. It didn't seem like general audiences cared much for the 'relationship' either. The leads (or the film) didn't get any People's Choice Noms, or even Teen Choice ones. It didn't really make an impact.
For me personally, I thought the kissing scene was contrived and awkward mainly due to the placement of where it was. They are surrounded by a graveyard of death, destruction, and bloodsheed with thousands dead all around them.. and they kiss? That was jarring.
It really depends on the context of where MoS is going.
I agree that if Superman remains in the shadows as a "Red-Blue" Blur, this entire conversation would be moot. If Superman is a public figure though, as he is traditionally portrayed, then it would be hard to swallow that no one in Metropolis (especially in a building full of journalists) would recognize him as Superman. Added to that is the fact that everyone in the world is aware that Superman lives among us as a human. Zod's message gave that away.
Maybe he will remain in the shadows in the MoS universe. Perhaps that's why we have no Jimmy Olsen existing and taking photos of Superman.
I'm pretty sure the intent was to ground the film in real-world logic, despite there being super-powered aliens present. Goyer's approach was 'what if this happened in the real world' according to that interview.
The execution of that idea, however, was somewhat sloppy so I understand why some see the film as 'absolute fantasy' and 'silliness.' I still think they have to respect the intelligence of the audience a bit more with this idea and at least give them a baseline explanation as to how the identity will work within the context of the MoS world.
That's fine, I guess...as long as we get some more substance to it.
So true. This is why I feel Supes NEEDS another solo film (and at least one for Batman) before jumping headfirst into this team-up/vs. stuff. There simply won't be any way to give us (the audience) any truly satisfying character work with TWO iconic lead roles vying for screentime.
This may be the best argument for leaving it out entirely.
I won't be able to listen to this until later, but what did he say if you don't mind me asking.
Actually Supes/Lois went to a recount with the Twilight couple for an award not sure which and you know how rabid those folks are.