Goyer Admits They Didn't Plan How 'Reporter Clark Kent' Could Make Sense

Discussion in 'Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice' started by The Valeyard, Nov 20, 2013.

  1. Loki882

    Loki882 Well-Known Member

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    That's because EVERYONE knew him and liked him, except for Banner, but he had his own reasons for coming back. Yes, they're all experienced with death, but it's different when someone you're close to dies and we don't know how BW/Hawkeye/Thor handle the death of a loved one since we haven't seen enough of their backstory. Cap went and tried to get drunk after Bucky died, so clearly he doesn't handle death very well/
     
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  2. Loki882

    Loki882 Well-Known Member

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    That argument makes no sense on multiple fronts. One, we don't know that they never cared about death before, you're just making a huge leap with no evidence to back it up. BW's dark past clearly bothers her, Cap went to a bar and tried to get drunk after Bucky "died." We don't know enough about Hawkeye to know how he handles death, Tony tends to hide his trauma behind snark and attitude as we see repeatedly, Thor wanting to avenge his death also makes sense since he did the same thing when Frigga died in TDW. So that part of your argument doesn't really work. Also, it's quite a different matter when someone that you're friends with dies, you react differently in that case.
     
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  3. DA_Champion

    DA_Champion Well-Known Member

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    You really comparing Thor's relationship with Coulson to his relationship with his mother Frigga? Or even to Cap's relationship with Bucky?

    Other than Agent Fury (and possible Black Widow and Hawkeye) they're not really friends with Coulson.

    That scene is simply Whedon forcing the heroes to come together. He really could have done better. The man knows how to handle death... "The Body" an episode of season 5 of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, is considered by many one of the most moving deaths ever shown in TV/Film, and he's done many other moving deaths. In contrast, Coulson's death felt totally flat. Killing Hawkeye would have been a better choice.

    The fact that Coulson, a 50 year old male, carries playing cards of the people he works with makes it feel more fake.

    Overall, TA is one of the most overrated movies I'm aware of.
     
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  4. Sub-Zero

    Sub-Zero Ice Cold

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    I love how every point on this page has to do with goyer and how he didn't plan out the Clark kent disguise.
     
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  5. InJustice

    InJustice Well-Known Member

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    And what does that have to do with Tempest's point? Completely irrelevant.
     
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  6. Boy Scout

    Boy Scout Well-Known Member

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    Thor, Banner, and Steve barely knew him and he and Stark weren't exactly friends. BW and Hawkeye were probably the only ones who actually knew him.
     
    #906
  7. Smashlilman

    Smashlilman Ouch!!!!

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    Superman pulling people out of rubble with Lois Lane reads an uplifting every dark cloud has a silver lining/bouncing back from tragedy articles that she wrote should have been the ending. The General Swanwick scene should have been and after credits scene.
     
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  8. Redwolf

    Redwolf Well-Known Member

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    If they don't make Superman a public figure..i.e. no interviews, no close up pictures etc his disguise can work. The only people Clark would have to worry about are his co-workers, possibly the government.

    His co-workers might be suspicious if Clark always leaves when danger happens. Again IF Superman isn't a public celebrity type who's going to say he's Superman if nobody has a good view/picture of Superman?

    You're average joe isn't going to recognize some guy walking down the street as Superman either. Especially if there aren't any pics of Superman. Go the red/blue blur way like in Smallville.

    The Military at least the higher ups probably have a good idea of who Superman is. He told them he grew up in Kansas. Clark has had incidents of saving people in extraordinary ways in his youth. Not sure if they made the paper, but if a superpowered being says he grew up in Kansas, then you read/hear about extraordinary events in Smallville....

    So really it's the Military who probably knows or can find out he's Clark. Which would make for an interesting plot in a future Superman or Justice League movie...Amanda Waller anyone? Just introduce a JL member who can erase memories, problem solved.
     
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  9. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    I wish people would use their imagination a little more.
     
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  10. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    The problem with MOS is that it does a poor job with Superman's identity even by Superman standards. When you try to sell a film & base its story on "Superman in the real world" and the comics do a better job with Clark's identity than the actual film, then you screwed up.
     
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  11. jonathancrane

    jonathancrane I love Marvel, DC & EC!

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    @Shikamaru

    Well said.
     
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  12. slumcat

    slumcat Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. Even before we get the glasses disguise, the movie has created the problem of the world knowing Clark Kent is Superman by having the Kryptonians specially land at the Kent farm and Lois screaming his name in front of police officers.
     
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  13. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    That is only the tip of the iceberg.

    1) There is no way I can buy people not being able to track him down if freakin' Lois was able to track him down so easily. The government would do it overnight.

    2) He tells the general he is 33 years old and grew up in Kansas. That narrows the search down so much.

    3) They announce on public television that Lois Lane knows who this person is (and if memory serves me right, it was on CNN out of all channels). Realistically speaking, anyone close to Lois and close to the Daily Planet would be investigated in the future.

    4) The Kryptonians land at the Kent Farm (just as you said) and we even see the US army tracking them down while they're on their way there.

    5) We see Lois yelling "Clark!" while the police officer is there (as you said) and sees Clark in full costume.

    Honestly, they did a horrendous job. I would have completely been fine with the glasses identity had Clark Kent been just an ordinary guy with no known connections to Superman (or to people/places associated with Superman) whatsoever. They took a concept people had trouble accepting in the first place and made it 1000 times harder for it to be accepted. It is incredible poor writing on their part.
     
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  14. slumcat

    slumcat Well-Known Member

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    Great post!

    There was this poster, I don't remember his name, he just basically refused to accept that the government or anyone in the world would know where the aliens landed!!!

    I'll look up some of his posts and quote them here.

    Edit: Below are some of them.

     
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    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  15. The Valeyard

    The Valeyard Well-Known Member

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    Great post.
     
    #915
  16. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    Lois didn't track him down "easily". She dedicated a lot to that investigation. She was shown to be one of the better reporters in the world. It's not as simple as "Well, she could do it, so they could do the same". The government being able to do it "overnight" assumes that people would talk to them as they did to Lois, and that each step of their journey would be the same as hers, leading to the same conclusions. I don't think you can make that assumption. Its also been suggested that some in Smallville may be protective of Clark's secrets. I would think that would especially hold true when the government came calling.

    Maybe. If the general was to remember and share this information.

    But what are they going to do? Investigate all 33 year old men in Kansas...yeah, speaking of being realistic...

    Which wouldn't neccessarily matter, as long as Clark's disguise held up, which is the biggest suspension of disbelief in the mythology. The film shows that Lois was already investigated, and she didn't tell them who Superman is.

    Which again, assumes that the government or whoever would know that they landed their initially, and that they must have landed there for the purpose of that being where Superman grew up. There's nothing to suggest this in any logical sense.

    And we only see the US Army tracking them into Kansas air space. Kansas is a pretty big place. I don't see anything in the film that suggests they were tracked to the Kent farm itself. Otherwise, why wasn't there military or police presence there?

    And in order to determine that this would blow his identity, you would have to assume that A, the police officer actually went onto the farm and recognized Clark while he was Superman, B, that she in fact meant Superman was Clark and that she wasn't just concerned about her friend Clark because his home had just been destroyed, which is far more likely. And C, that the police officer actually heard her yell his name in the first place.

    Not really. You just need to use a little bit of logic and imagination when assessing the situation. Instead of making kneejerk assumptions about everything seen in the film.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  17. Shikamaru

    Shikamaru Well-Known Member

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    And the government wouldn't dedicate a lot to such investigation :whatever:. If anything, they would dedicate a lot more to that investigation than Lois due to fear, paranoia, a desire to control Superman, etc.

    Being one of the "better reporters" doesn't mean **** when you have all the resources the government has. Plus the government has many investigators just as good as Lois or better.

    The government's journey would be easier and faster. Furthermore, the government has way more evidence by the end of the film than Lois did at the beginning of the film when she tracked him. Smallville being protective of Clark's identity is entirely speculation and is not in the movie. Even if that is the case, Lois still managed to get information out of them and find out about Clark Kent.

    What :huh:? Of course he would remember and share that information. He wants to find Superman and considers him dangerous due to not being controlled, as shown in the film. The guy even smashed a satellite in front of him as he told him that he is from Kansas.

    It is called "pulling the pieces together". Smallville would be the first place in Kansas they would investigate based on the film's events. Any suspicious story or records they find (i.e. Clark's bus rescue as a kid, the rumors going around, possible lack of birth records, etc.) would be thoroughly investigated.

    Lois has a new co-worker who looks a lot like Superman (the military has seen his face up close so you can't use the "blur" excuse) who will presumably have a partnership and/or romantic relationship with in the future. They did investigate Lois and found out that she did in fact knew who he was even if she didn't tell them. She would continue to be investigated in the future to see if she ever comes in contact with Superman while not in the suit.

    They tracked them down to Smallville specifically and later found out they wanted to terraform Earth. That combined with Superman stating he grew up in Kansas would make Smallville the very first place that would be investigated.

    As for why there wasn't military presence there, it was because the Kryptonian ship got there too fast (in comparison with human ships). It was about a minute or two. By the time they would announce anyone to be there, the Kryptonians would have already landed.

    A) The police officer clearly knows who the Kents are. Lois specifically asked him to take her to the Kent farm and then he saw Superman in full costume with the house destroyed.
    B) He saw her yelling "Clark!" then running directly to Superman and then flying away with him.
    C) Sorry but I call BS on that. She yelled it out loud and the police officer was right there.

    The original glasses disguise from the comics as-is had enough logic and imagination for people to buy it. MOS took a "kinda unlikely but I can buy it" concept and turned it into a "how the **** can't they figure who Superman is" concept. "Horrendous" is the perfect word that describes the way they handled Superman's identity in the film. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
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  18. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    Yes. Yes it does mean a great deal. Seeing as how it was Lois' personal leads and sources that she developed that led her to Clark in the first place. She didn't pick up a trail that EVERYONE had seen the patterns of and was working on, at least based on what we're shown in the film. She put the pieces together herself in a certain way...and had the trust of Clark and Martha at the end in order to get anywhere with her lead. There's no guarantee that the government would be able to do the same given the changed circumstances.

    I'm starting to question whether you know what evidence actually is and how investigations work. Nothing the government has at the end of the film is anything resembling concrete evidence. "The bad guys landed around here" is not remotely evidence pointing to Superman's identity.

    Well, if we're just going to poo poo anything that's not in the movie, that kind of torpedoes your argument then, doesn't it? :)

    Hmm. Possibly. Can you prove it? How do you know the general doesn't trust Superman a little more after he tells him that he's American as they come and that he grew up in Kansas?

    But the problem is that you assume that they would get this information in the same way that Lois did and that this is the way their investigation would unfold.

    What's your point? As far as what Clark and Superman look like, at some point you and others are going to have to use your imagination a bit regarding the whole "Clark looks like Superman" thing and accept that it's just a staple of the mythology. I'm sure that they will build some other checks into his secret identity as well.

    Given that a battle took place there, Smallville is probably going to be investigated regardless. I'm not denying that Smallville will likely be investigated. I'm saying you cannot assume their investigation will yield the identity of Superman.

    I see. So then...why wasn't there military/police presence there during the aftermath of the battle in Smallville (other than the cop who clearly just gave Lois a lift)? Why weren't various agencies combing the exact site the Kryptonians landed at right away?

    Which proves nothing except that Lois asked to go to the Kent farm, and the police officer might have seen Superman and the house destroyed.

    I've already addressed this. A, it's an assumption, and B, this still doesn't prove anything. It's not solid evidence.

    As I recall, the officer was not really "right there". He was at the road, and she was more or less halfway to the farmhouse.

    Call BS all you want. You cannot prove your theory.

    No it doesn't. It's incredibly silly. And didn't you suggest that if they investigated Lois' friends, Clark's identity would be revealed because people could compare Clark to Superman visually?

    No, MOS didn't deal with the concept of the secret identity at all, really. It just showed why Clark would need one in the future.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  19. vantheman77

    vantheman77 Superman Fan 4 Life

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    Smallville ended with Clark wearing the suit and flying with it to become Superman after he became Daily Planet reporter with glasses

    Man of Steel ends with Clark becoming the reporter with glasses at the Daily Planet after he wore the suit and fly with it, along with being called Superman.
     
    #919
  20. MrsKent26

    MrsKent26 Whatever.

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    Normally, I do like some explanation for things and for them to make sense, but as I've said before the Clark Kent persona is a part of the Superman myth I don't want to give up. I simply love the reporter/double life of a god-like man thing too much to lose it. So, I guess as long as they keep the Kent persona, I don't care that much what they do. To me, getting rid of the persona is the only thing I don't want. Having said that, here's some thoughts on how they could explain things. These are more for amusement than anything, as I don't care if they explain them that much at all. Just keep the Kent.


    Zod outing Supes: No escaping that one. People who had been rescued by Clark before will likely make the connection. But they don't know personal details about Clark. All they know is that the weird guy that saved them that time is indeed an alien.

    People of Smallville: Goyer talked about this in the extra dvd features. They probably know Clark is Supes. And they keep it to themselves, maybe out of respect (he did save some of them during the bus incident) or perhaps fear after seeing what that Kent boy can really do.

    Aliens Landing at the Kent Farm: The aliens flew all over, for a short period of time. Only that cop with Lois saw the wrecked farmhouse, which Clark could repair. The military knew the ships landed in Kansas, but not the exact location. They knew they landed in Smallville, but wouldn't know why unless the people talked about the Kent boy. And would they? Maybe. Maybe not. Could be scared of alien retaliation. Swanwick might know why, but would he tell anyone?

    Lois and the Cop: We don't know for sure if he heard her say "clark!" but he did bring her to the wrecked farm. Perhaps, like other Smallvillians, he keeps his mouth shut.

    People know that Lois knows: Yep, they definitely know Lois knows who Supes is. And a few folks saw Lois kissing Supes. No way around this. They just have to deal with it. It could be a plot point. How would people react to her, knowing she knows (and has kissed) and alien? No need to cover this up when it can be used in the plot.

    Superman being Superman: Once Clark gets going and starts being Superman, he can make many, many rescues in a short time since he's so fast. With all the rescues, it will help people believe that the alien now does this full time. Why would a god-like alien want to work at the DP any way? People wouldn't think that would be the first place to find such a creature. It adds to the hiding in plain sight idea. But...he would have to avoid being seen on camera with Lois or anything like that. Which he could. He's only a stringer, after all.

    The government: Would they want to find out this alien's identity? Probably. If Lois found him, couldn't they? Probably. But what would they do if they did? Threaten Lois, who is somewhat of a public entity now? Threaten his mom and end up like Zod? Are they gonna fight this Superman? That's what could happen if they tried to do anything like that. And that wouldn't be any gain for them since they could fight him without knowing who he is. Knowing that he's Clark from Kansas won't make him any less of a danger to them. Even if they threatened and killed his family for some reason...that wouldn't make him easier to kill. It would just make him madder. Perhaps they don't want to mess with him and keep the peace.

    Supes telling Swanwick he grew up in Kansas: I think Supes did that to establish some trust between them and decrease the fear. Swanwick was the only one he told. Simply have Swanwick keep that information a secret. Governments don't give details on classified things anyways.

    Supes saying he was 33: Who cares? An 33 year old alien doesn't narrow things down that much. People could guess his age by his appearance anyways.

    Perry, Jenny, Lombard: Saw Lois and Supes and may wonder about this new guy. Maybe they will know at some point or already do. Maybe they don't tell because of Lois's wishes or because Supes saved them.

    Facial Recognition software: Don't deal with it at all. Whatever. It's not interesting and would take up time that could be spent on characterization. Ain't nobody got time for that. If people want to bring up nit-picky techy stuff like that, they probably never liked the Kent disguise and won't ever like it.

    Well, anyways, I don't think the disguise situation is all that dire and there's no need to get melodramatic and go on about how horrendous it all is. To me, the bright side is that there is still DP Clark.
     
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  21. DA_Champion

    DA_Champion Well-Known Member

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    If the government wants to protect Clark's identity, and basic logic dictates that they should, then the general public won't know. I think that's a logical way for Goyer to do, though of course Goyer may think of other ideas.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 30, 2013
  22. DA_Champion

    DA_Champion Well-Known Member

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    You're really turning into a troll.

    You accuse me of saying that the government would never know where the aliens landed, and then you quote me as saying that the government would protect his secret.

    Not sure what your deal, but it's too bad.
     
    #922
  23. MrsKent26

    MrsKent26 Whatever.

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    It is logical. Since when are governments always 100% forthcoming? Whether they're scared of Supes and fear retaliation or wanting to protect the one who protects them, I doubt they're telling anyone anything.
     
    #923
  24. DA_Champion

    DA_Champion Well-Known Member

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    Information is power. If the government and only the government knows that Clark is superman, then:

    1) They buy time;
    2) They hold an intelligence advantage over Russia, China, etc in terms of alien affairs;
    3) They have potential leverage over Clark/Superman if things ever turn sour;
     
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  25. Boy Scout

    Boy Scout Well-Known Member

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    Like I said earlier: I think it would've been more interesting if Clark had just straight up told the government who he was in an effort to win their trust.
     
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