HBO's Game of Thrones - - - - Part 13

[CaptainCanada]

Example - you are tasked with arranging the murder of a 13 year old girl on the other half of the world who is technically innocent. Do you do it? No, of course you don't. No one would agree to assassinate a little girl unless they were either insane or... insane.

On that one, Dany is really not "innocent". Robert and co. are completely correct that her marriage to Drogo was arranged for the purpose of facilitating a conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. Dany has become an active political agent.

 

[jonathancrane]

Plus, she's annoying; I keep hoping she will get offed, but, I realize she'll be the one character to survive Martin's proverbial pen.

 

[Ezio Auditore]

this is all Brandon's fault.

he should have killed Littlefinger when he had the chance. Thanks again, Cat, for stopping him

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Because she's a woman.

...Seriously, because she was mean to Jon Snow. That really is it....and she's a woman.

It probably is because of Jon. Which, funny enough, she seemed to go a little easier on the show than in the book. Pretty sure she was worse with him in the book.

I must have missed the part where Catelyn warned Cersei with enough time that she could murder Robert and destroy his evidence of the crime. Or that time that she convinced Robb to forsake his marriage vows to the Freys, leading to their betrayal and his death.

Look, I like Ned and Robb quite a bit as characters. And Cat made mistake. But this internet revisionism of her being responsible for the Stark family's fall has always struck me as bizarre. Robb and Ned dug their own graves.

I think the first warning for Lannisters was when Cat took Tyrion hostage. That was the first move made by the Starks, and it wound up being a meaningless one because they then took that move and lost the only thing of value from it...which would have been Tyrion. And that entire move was of Cat's own doing.

In truth, I don't think it's internet revisionism. I think it's just a study into the complexities of how decisions have ripple effects on all ends. It isn't really any one thing that led to some of the events, but a series of them. One could probably argue that the biggest idiot was Robert for allowing himself to get surrounded by Lannisters on every level in Kings Landing, getting soft with power and making himself such an easy target.

Yet, the war was thwarted by Robert well enough. And at the end of the day, while Tyrion was innocent, the Lannisters (Jaime, Cersei, [BLACKOUT]and Joffrey with the knife[/BLACKOUT]) did try to kill her son. And if Ned hadn't gone to Cersei, Robert wouldn't have died, creating this power vacuum. Instead Cersei and Jaime, as well as their children, would have been hanged as traitors and Tywin would have to go to war with the six other kingdoms if he objected.

But, Robert didn't thwart the war. Even though after his death, Tywin seemed to be tactical in trying to force one of the other houses (I'm thinking about when the Mountain and his men attacked villages without any sigils or banners). But I guess that could have had more to do with Ned still having power and not with the wished of the late King Robert. The war certainly would not have been as bloody as it wound up if Robert had lived, but I can't see Tywin letting things slide. Even if he'd need to do things in a manner to avoid the wrath of King Robert.

Who did that hurt though, really? If she hadn't freed Jaime Lannister, Karstark would have killed him in his cell, just as he did those distant Lannister boy cousins. In which case, Robb would have still executed him and still lost the Karstarks, and the Freys would still have betrayed him for the marriage slight. And if Karstark killed the Kingslayer, rest assured that Cersei would have immediately taken Sansa Stark's head. So, Cat's decision to free Jaime, while poor war strategy, ultimately did not precipitate any of the causes that led to Robb's downfall. In fact, it saved her daughter's life. So, in a sense, it was well played if by accident.

I don't know...I remember thinking that Robb seemed to have Karkstark in line. And I think Karkstark may have stayed in line, because he could see the importance of the strategy. Would Karkstark have been able to get past (I'm assuming there would be) extra security and kill Jamie himself? I don't know, possibly. But, I felt it just as likely that Robb and his men could help keep Karkstark in line and focus on winning the war, and obey the "King in the North". I agree that it would depend entirely on keeping Karkstark in line, but all things considered I think it could have been done.

 

[Hyde]

On that one, Dany is really not "innocent". Robert and co. are completely correct that her marriage to Drogo was arranged for the purpose of facilitating a conquest of the Seven Kingdoms. Dany has become an active political agent.

None of that was to do with her. The marriage was arranged by Viserys; HE was the one who wanted to conquer the Seven Kingdoms, Daenerys didn't want any of it. At the time this murder was going to be carried out, Dany was completely innocent.

Now of course things are different but while Dany is a Targaryen, the only reason Robert wanted her and her brother killed was because their father and most of their family were insane madmen, and because they posed a threat to his rule. Then again Viserys turned out to be an insane madman, and Dany isn't that great a ruler either

 

[DACrowe]

I think the only outright stupid decisions both Robb and Ned made were marrying Talisa over the Frey girl and telling Cersei that he knew Joffrey was a bastard. Other than that all their decisions made sense.

Because the world of A Song of Ice and Fire is basically a lot of wish fulfilment - the ability to **** anyone you want, power, backstabbing, easy to murder etc - it feels like most fans sit back and say that they would totally have done the opposite to Ned's decisions, but really they wouldn't.

Example - you are tasked with arranging the murder of a 13 year old girl on the other half of the world who is technically innocent. Do you do it? No, of course you don't. No one would agree to assassinate a little girl unless they were either insane or... insane.

Another - an old friend and father figure to you has died, and you later learn that he was possibly murdered by the rulers of you and all the kingdoms.. You are also presented with the offer to go and work there and take the position that your deceased father figure once held. Do you accept and reveal the true cause of his death and bring down those who killed him, or sit hundreds of miles away in your castle with a thumb up your ass?

Again, you would choose the first option.

I agree Ned is a good person, and people confuse morality with stupidity thanks to hindsight. I doubt many questioned Ned's decision to go South with Robert, though I think it was more out of honor than avenging John Arryn. I would also add that Ned was a father and left his family home without its head by going South, many actually would not choose that.

Ned makes moral choices, but as Martin points out, in politics that may not always best the best choice of self-interests. And in Westeros, like medieval Europe, bad choices can have deadly consequences in the end.

 

[DACrowe]

I don't know...I remember thinking that Robb seemed to have Karkstark in line. And I think Karkstark may have stayed in line, because he could see the importance of the strategy. Would Karkstark have been able to get past (I'm assuming there would be) extra security and kill Jamie himself? I don't know, possibly. But, I felt it just as likely that Robb and his men could help keep Karkstark in line and focus on winning the war, and obey the "King in the North". I agree that it would depend entirely on keeping Karkstark in line, but all things considered I think it could have been done.

Well according to Cat, who as we know had a tendency to exaggerate, Karstark would have killed Jaime within the next several days if she had not set him free. Then again, Robb was away at this point (in the books to deal with the Westerlings, in the show frolicking with Talisa at some other castle). The show even increases Cat's danger level, because Jaime had already killed another one of Karstark's sons (who was a guard). So he was in a blood frenzy.

I do think Karstark, especially in the show, would have acted. As a form of strategy, what Cat did was very stupid. But in the end, I do not think it cost them much and did save Sansa's life. So, it really is not the fatal error of the Starks, especially in the show.

 

[Hyde]

I agree Ned is a good person, and people confuse morality with stupidity thanks to hindsight. I doubt many questioned Ned's decision to go South with Robert, though I think it was more out of honor than avenging John Arryn. I would also add that Ned was a father and left his family home without its head by going South, many actually would not choose that.

Ned makes moral choices, but as Martin points out, in politics that may not always best the best choice of self-interests. And in Westeros, like medieval Europe, bad choices can have deadly consequences in the end.

I wouldn't really argue with his decision to go south. Catelyn was supposed to stay in Winterfell and take more of a leadership role but she buggered off to the Vale with Tyrion and inadvertently started the War of Five Kings. If she hadn't captured Tyrion, Jaime wouldn't have attacked Ned, the Lannisters wouldn't have been pissed off, Ned wouldn't have been killed and so forth. Kind of a stretch but she still played a big role in the beginning of it.

I think most of the characters "stupid" decisions can be argued to actually be good ones, but almost all of Catelyn's decisions have been stupid and I really can't understand why some people root for her.

Oh, and Renly. Renly was also stupid.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Cat is a funny character, because her impact is felt more with how she raised her kids, then the decisions she made during the show. Ned inspired his kids. He was clearly a more hands on father then most in Westeros, especially if you look at Jon and Arya. They take after him something fierce. Arya is basically Lyanna, Ned's sister reincarnated. Robb tries to be like his father.

The Cat that raised her kids, is not the same person we see on the show. She was far more Tully then she is now, though you can still see the selfishness, the pettiness, the dramatics at times. Living in the North all those years changed he, but you can still see it.

Robb could have used Jon at his side during the war. That would have never happened because of Cat. The reason he had to go to the Wall was Cat. He was not allowed at King's Landing, and Cat forbid him from staying at Winterfell with Ned gone.

One of the reasons I prefer the show relationship between Robb and Talisa, is because of how it reflects on Cat. In the book the honor bit is reversed. Robb marries the book character out of "honor". On the show it is the romantic ideal of love. He can't live without her, so he breaks his vow, betrayals his code. He ruins his honor, and loses the war, for what he wants. Cat instilled this in her kids and you see it in Robb, Sansa and Bran.Thinking about what you want rather then doing "what is right". It is why she releases Jaime. So Cat is left with what she has molded Robb into, and because he is king, like Cersei, she is powerless to make him do anything.

In the end Cat loves her kids more then anything, but she is selfish, and it rubbed off. That is why she gets a hard time for how she treats Jon. It reflects her personality. Her willingness to throw a child aside for what she wants. It isn't like Jon is unlikable. He is everyone's favorite sibling outside of Sansa, and why is that? Because she took right after her mother.

 

[Hyde]

I don't like Sansa a whole lot either I agree with you, it is a funny situation with Cat. I haven't got to the [BLACKOUT]Lady Stoneheart[/BLACKOUT] part of the books yet but to be honest I wanted Martin to [BLACKOUT]keep her dead[/BLACKOUT].

 

[Roose Bolton]

I think I probably sympathize with Sansa more than I do Arya. Obviously Arya's a little sociopath now, but she didn't have as much direct punishment or cruelty inflicted upon her as Sansa. If what GRRM has been saying about her WoW storyline, it'll only get worse.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't like Sansa a whole lot either I agree with you, it is a funny situation with Cat. I haven't got to the [BLACKOUT]Lady Stoneheart[/BLACKOUT] part of the books yet but to be honest I wanted Martin to [BLACKOUT]keep her dead[/BLACKOUT].

Oh, don't get me wrong. I love Sansa. I think she has grown more then anyone. But she started from a bad place do in large part to her mother imo.

I think I probably sympathize with Sansa more than I do Arya. Obviously Arya's a little sociopath now, but she didn't have as much direct punishment or cruelty inflicted upon her as Sansa. If what GRRM has been saying about her WoW storyline, it'll only get worse.

I wouldn't say Arya has had it less worsen the Sansa. They have both suffered tremendously. Arya has benefited slightly for not being her mother's daughter.

 

[Roose Bolton]

It's a different kind of suffering, and they're different kinds of people. Arya is a fighter, a natural kind of survivor who could give as good as she gets whereas Sansa is more gentle-natured. I feel more for Sansa because she isn't someone who would ever really hurt anyone.

Not to say that Arya isn't a traumatized wreck of a human being though.

 

[Hyde]

It's more sympathy than actually liking Sansa to me, unlike with Arya where I feel both. Sansa was a ***** in Season 1 and wanted nothing more than be a materialistic princess and marry Joffrey because she thought he was hot, and was willing to lie to keep it that way at the expense of her pet's and a boy's life She got her wish, and it ruined her life.

Now Joffrey treats her horrifically, along with the rest of King's Landing, but that doesn't mean I like her - just feel bad for her.

 

[Roose Bolton]

It's like, someone you know who is really annoying and irritating, seeing them maybe spill coffee on themselves or stubbing their toe, you don't feel bad about that and maybe even laugh a little. But it's a completely different thing if you were to watch them getting the crap kicked out of them on a consistently brutal basis.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's more sympathy than actually liking Sansa to me, unlike with Arya where I feel both. Sansa was a ***** in Season 1 and wanted nothing more than be a materialistic princess and marry Joffrey because she thought he was hot, and was willing to lie to keep it that way at the expense of her pet's and a boy's life She got her wish, and it ruined her life.

Now Joffrey treats her horrifically, along with the rest of King's Landing, but that doesn't mean I like her - just feel bad for her.

See I don't understand why people put that on Sansa. She was a little girl who was raised by her mother to be exactly like that. Sansa's looks were basically her curse in this regard.

 

[DACrowe]

Cat is a funny character, because her impact is felt more with how she raised her kids, then the decisions she made during the show. Ned inspired his kids. He was clearly a more hands on father then most in Westeros, especially if you look at Jon and Arya. They take after him something fierce. Arya is basically Lyanna, Ned's sister reincarnated. Robb tries to be like his father.

The Cat that raised her kids, is not the same person we see on the show. She was far more Tully then she is now, though you can still see the selfishness, the pettiness, the dramatics at times. Living in the North all those years changed he, but you can still see it.

Robb could have used Jon at his side during the war. That would have never happened because of Cat. The reason he had to go to the Wall was Cat. He was not allowed at King's Landing, and Cat forbid him from staying at Winterfell with Ned gone.

One of the reasons I prefer the show relationship between Robb and Talisa, is because of how it reflects on Cat. In the book the honor bit is reversed. Robb marries the book character out of "honor". On the show it is the romantic ideal of love. He can't live without her, so he breaks his vow, betrayals his code. He ruins his honor, and loses the war, for what he wants. Cat instilled this in her kids and you see it in Robb, Sansa and Bran.Thinking about what you want rather then doing "what is right". It is why she releases Jaime. So Cat is left with what she has molded Robb into, and because he is king, like Cersei, she is powerless to make him do anything.

In the end Cat loves her kids more then anything, but she is selfish, and it rubbed off. That is why she gets a hard time for how she treats Jon. It reflects her personality. Her willingness to throw a child aside for what she wants. It isn't like Jon is unlikable. He is everyone's favorite sibling outside of Sansa, and why is that? Because she took right after her mother.

I was with you until you suggested that Robb married Talisa because Cat taught him to be selfish. Her treatment of Jon Snow notwithstanding, Cat and Ned's biggest hurdle is perhaps while they both taught their children strong moral lessons and instilled in them a sense of honor, they honestly coddled them from the real world. Robb trusting the Freys after having several of them executed for the Karstark killings and breaking his marriage vow is not unlike Ned still trusting Littlefinger because he was once "friends" with Cat. Sansa believing knights and noblemen are naturally just and, well, noble, is from the silly stories that Cat filled in her head, promising the real world is like that.

In both book and film Cat chastised Robb for breaking his marriage vows and was weary of Walder Frey after what Robb did. Robb had an idealized view of the world, like really all of his siblings save for Arya, and that is why he thought he could get away with what he did. Not unlike Ned thinking that he could get away with warning Cersei or simply producing a document implicating the newly crowned King Joffrey for treason, instead of procuring Joffrey's downfall before Robert passed. That is more of a Stark trait about an unwillingness to see things how they are.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

With the Stark kids, I'd almost want to argue that they're all really young. But, because they're highborn...yes, Northmen so probably rougher and tougher...but still, highborn, they do have a different view on the world they live. So it's not all the fault of youth. But, hell even Ned did have that sort of view on the world. And he'd been through some heavy **** before settling in as the Lord of Winterfell. Robb breaking his vows seemed to me like something akin to a teenager falling in love and getting married despite all the signs that might tell you not to. I wonder if he'd been a few years older, if he'd made the same decision. Like DACrowe said, he's definitely like his dad in most ways. Punishing Karkstark is something Ned would have done.

But, really all the Starks seem to serve the same purpose in GoT. To serve as a reminder that the fantasy story tropes won't happen. Ned being the honorable hero who couldn't prevail. Robb being the avenging son seeking justice for the death of his father. Sansa being the girl who has the horrible fortune of seeing the storybook and songs of fairy tales where the princess is whisked away by a handsome prince with all the gallantry and pageantry essentially being total bs. Even Arya is kind of seeing that her swashbuckling adventure dream is just bathed in blood.

But, I guess that kinda goes into how people believe the Starks are just the whipping boys of this universe. But, I think I'd give that title to Theon...er, I mean Reek.

 

[Victarion]

What have you heard about Arya, Roose?

Beating a dead wolf: I don't dislike Ned at all. I more pity him than anything. He'd dealt with Lannisters before during Robert's Rebellion, so he should've had a better idea of how they operate.

 

[CaptainCanada]

Cat instilled this in her kids and you see it in Robb, Sansa and Bran.Thinking about what you want rather then doing "what is right".

That's a bizarre interpretation of Catelyn. Catelyn is all about doing one's duty and about being a mother, not "what she wants".

Her willingness to throw a child aside for what she wants.

Huh? Catelyn's dislike of Jon is because he's a potential threat to her children's inheritance, and his being raised in Winterfell is universally acknowledged as an affront to her status as Ned's wife, and a reminder that he cheated on her.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I was with you until you suggested that Robb married Talisa because Cat taught him to be selfish. Her treatment of Jon Snow notwithstanding, Cat and Ned's biggest hurdle is perhaps while they both taught their children strong moral lessons and instilled in them a sense of honor, they honestly coddled them from the real world. Robb trusting the Freys after having several of them executed for the Karstark killings and breaking his marriage vow is not unlike Ned still trusting Littlefinger because he was once "friends" with Cat. Sansa believing knights and noblemen are naturally just and, well, noble, is from the silly stories that Cat filled in her head, promising the real world is like that.

Robb's attempt to win the Freys back is niave, but he also has no choice at that point.

In both book and film Cat chastised Robb for breaking his marriage vows and was weary of Walder Frey after what Robb did. Robb had an idealized view of the world, like really all of his siblings save for Arya, and that is why he thought he could get away with what he did. Not unlike Ned thinking that he could get away with warning Cersei or simply producing a document implicating the newly crowned King Joffrey for treason, instead of procuring Joffrey's downfall before Robert passed. That is more of a Stark trait about an unwillingness to see things how they are.

Cat is a hypocrite in the book and on the show. Cat on the show admits as much when she tells the story of when Jon was a baby and sick.

That's a bizarre interpretation of Catelyn. Catelyn is all about doing one's duty and about being a mother, not "what she wants".

Cat does her duty when it fits her. She placed Robb in a situation where he should have cut her head off. Why? Because she thought it would somehow save her daughters. Did she think Robb didn't miss his sisters? Didn't care what happened to them? But nope, she lost them their one bargaining chip.

Huh? Catelyn's dislike of Jon is because he's a potential threat to her children's inheritance, and his being raised in Winterfell is universally acknowledged as an affront to her status as Ned's wife, and a reminder that he cheated on her.

The show scene where she tells the story of Jon sick as a baby is a perfect example of how ridiculous and cruel this treatment is. She knows it, and still can't stop it.

It is extremely selfish. He was a baby who did nothing wrong. And what, she treated him like crap because of the potential he might try to fight for a claim of Winterfell? You mean she didn't realize as the boy grew up that he wasn't some crazy monster? Did she not notice that her children adored him, loved him? That Ned loved him? That Jon clearly loved them back and would do anything to protect them? You know why she never noticed? Because she is selfish and petty.

In the books, when she still fights Robb over Winterfell and leaving it to Jon. When Jon tries to say goodbye to Bran. Good lord the woman is selfish fool.

 

[jonathancrane]

I agree with Darth, on account of Cat.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

For those that defend her treatment of Jon, why is it her first and continuous instinct to distrust and scorn? Why not love, why not compassionate? You know, like her kids. Because he isn't her's and thus does not matter to her. She is selfish. The things she taught Robb and Sansa to say to Jon as a child were cruel.

 

[Drz]

Catelyn Stark would murder a baby with no hesitasion if it meant saving her own Stark children. Catelyn never cared for anyone besides her own family and thats what truly does make her..... wait for it..... que for rage..... EVIL! :b

 

[Roose Bolton]

What have you heard about Arya, Roose?

Beating a dead wolf: I don't dislike Ned at all. I more pity him than anything. He'd dealt with Lannisters before during Robert's Rebellion, so he should've had a better idea of how they operate.

GRRM said in an interview at the end of last year that there's a VERY controversial Sansa chapter coming up in WoW. I think [blackout] she's gonna get raped by Littlefinger [/blackout]