How to fix the DC Animated Original Universe

[BH/HHH]

I know we've discussed this to death in both the Bad Blood and JL vs the Titans threads but given they aren't the place for it I think it's best to have a place to discuss it separately.

I think it's fair to say that many of us haven't been happy with the JL Animated movies post Flashpoint. It started with Justice League War going the New 52 route and since we have had nothing but JL films and Batman films set in the new universe (with few exceptions, JL: Gods and Monsters, Batman Assault on Arkham).

I know the ones that sell most are the Batman ones followed by the Justice League properties. But they really haven't helped to sell other heroes like they have Batman and the Justice League.

Whilst Superman had been treated to several adaptations prior to Flashpoint I really still feel he got the shaft at times. Superman vs the Elite, whilst a great animated film had some really poor character designs that from many comments I've read are what turned people off the film. They then followed it up with Superman Unbound (which I like a lot) but even that had a strange design for Superman for many. I really feel like they dropped the ball so bad with the designs on Elite that Superman suffered as a result. Why was this allowed to happen? Compare the designs on Elite and Unbound to All Star Superman. All Star was of course more a straight up adaptation than either of those two. But still why wasn't there an effort to make them at least more like the comics than the choices they made? Stan Smith Superman is just a horrendous choice.

Then there's Green Lantern, who I feel suffered worst if all. Whilst First a Flight was a good animated film and was successful. They followed that up with Green Lantern Emerald Knights, which was abut if a train wreck (IMO). I don't understand how or why they did this? Gotham Knight whilst a successful film sales wise was met with mixed reactions. Did they not learn from this?...

And onto Wonder Woman, who received a terrific animated film yet because sakes weren't great she was dropped. Could they not have used her as a co-lead for something as they did with the Superman Batman titles?

Speaking of the Superman Batman titles, why didn't they ever do anymore of those? You'd have thought they'd have had a Superman Batman movie or better yet a Trinity movie out in time for the release of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.

I get that the Batman ones are the big sellers but as I've said why not then have Batman team up with another hero or two? You've still got a Batman title and he will still be a lead in the movie. They need to give other heroes more of a chance to break out.

The decision to keep everything in continuity is another choice I find bizarre. The reason the other movies were so good was they were different, they had variety to them. Give us back that variety.

I also worry about the over exposure of Batman in these films and elsewhere. He's an amazing character but like with everything you can do to much with a character and people will eventually turn off from it.

I think the best things they can do now is, get away form what they are currently doing. Bring back 1 or 2 straight up adaptations a year, an original movie and a Batman one where he teams up with another hero. Of course been more of a Superman fan I would want some Superman ones again but I'm not convinced they'll do that.

Why can't they even do some shorts like they did, I know the individual disc collecting the shorts wasn't a huge seller. But why can't they give us a shorter movie and a 10-20 minute short along with it. That way we can also get variety on these projects.

My big hope is that shows like the Flash, Arrow etc and the DCEU give other characters more exposure to allow them to risk doing an animated project on them.

I guarantee if they keep doing what they are doing then eventually people will stop buying them.

 

[Omegabat]

While I'm not as harsh as some others are I still firmly believe that these movies have indeed gone downhill.

I think it's because they are now more interested in highlighting specific characters than telling good stories. A JL movie should be a JL movie and not a cleverly disguised Flash or Aquaman film. When people buy JL they expect JL and are bound to be disappointed when one character takes centre stage. Batman can maybe get away with it because he probably has a bigger fanbase than all others put together but they cant alienate multiple fan bases to make Aquaman look good. It's not a problem for me because I'm a fan of all these characters(mostly) but for others it can be especially irritating.

The Batman flicks suffer from the same problem,Damian,Batwoman and Dick have taken centre stage so that in the end it's outright war for the more screen time and awesomeness which in turn leads to bickering fans.

The Batman movies now highlight Batman family characters and the JL films highlight the other characters. Admittedly though the JL movies have done a better job on that front at least. I'm a big Damian fan but even I struggle to tolerate him in these films.It's because of this approach many complaints inevitably boil down to "where's my favourite character",I dont remember this being a problem pre-Flashpoint,now people start whining every time a new announcement comes and even those who get their preferred characters whine about them not being done justice.

Inability to sell anything other than Batman and JL lies at the heart of the problem. There's nothing wrong with the universe or the creative talent involved.I'm not fully aware of the reasons why Superman and GL flunked but those failures are imo responsible for the current state of the DTV line. These people want to tell those stories but their hands are tied and thus they tell them in the wrong avenue. I can already see Superman and Wonder Woman fans crying over some potential Titans beating them up. If Damian does it's gonna create explosions.

One thing they could do is revert back to telling the best possible Batman stories and JL stories,screwing Damian,Dick,Batwoman and other C-Listers in the process. But obviously they wont do that as it's a deliberate direction.

So they could increase the running time of their films considerably.

Stop hiring Ethan Spaulding,his work is the worst overall.

Change the voice actors,I dont get the animation departments stubbornness here.

Focus on original material,adaptations can be controversial if not done right. Not all films can be adapted appropriately.

Make the universe it's own,mercifully with Bad Blood and JL vs TT they seem to be doing that. Wipe away the impression that it's the New-52 verse animated and thus only elements,stories,direction and characters from that continuity will make it. They made a huge mistake leaving that impression in the first place. Lead, dont follow they should incorporate their own vision for these characters. Keep the good stuff but dont go for 100% accuracy, for example this Diana sucks as a character and there's no point to her romance with Supes.

The Batman films are here to stay and I personally thought that both the SM/BM films were kind off crap. Public Enemies had as much thought in it as JL War(not much).

 

[Decepticonus]

I am not hateful towards the new movies like most are. I don't love them per se, but I don't flat out hate them. The JL ones did nothing for me but I don't mind the Batman ones, had fun watching them. But my go to movies are New Frontier, Crisis, DKR & Wonder Woman. Yes UTRH is good, I guess the die hard love for that movie from others turn me off a little bit, I don't know.

I do agree they should use Batman and or the JL to push other characters along. That's how I view these confirmed cameos and Wonder Woman's appearance in BvS it is basically free promotion without having to put out a trailer. But when you look at the numbers Batman sells, sorry guys. They are a business and have to make money, so why take a risk and let's say a Blue Beetle movie that may not make any money? Of course, business need to take risks from time to time but not unnecessary risks.

However, going back to the numbers - something has to be done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DC_Universe_Animated_Original_Movies#Sales_performance

Here are all the sales #s for each title since their release and you can organize it for highest grossing and lowest grossing. We can all see the newest films have not done well, however the older ones of course made more because they have been out longer, But let's look closer if you click each single citation. In DVD sales alone, not counting Blu-Ray - Son of Batman failed to make $1 million in its first week of release. Now apply the same criteria for Batman: Gotham Knight and made well over $4 million in DVD sales the first week. Now you could ascribe this to people being high off the Nolan Batman at the time perhaps. Nonetheless, all of the older movies sold more in their first week in DVD sales than the newer ones. Perhaps we could say digital has hurt these DVD sales as well now, but regardless someone has to be looking at this and saying how do we get back to those older numbers. I agree use BvS to show up a Trinity movie. Say what you will about Gotham Knight, I'd argue it's OK but it was a success mainly because of Nolan's films being a free advertisement for it.

It did help we got something new every year from some different creator, voice talent and story, it became like an event. Perhaps this year we can get Red Son Superman and next year do something completely out of the mix and do a Black Canary movie. It was something to look forward to. I like the idea of a shared universe DVD collection but it's not working well and I think works better with actual films or television. I think part of the New 52 direction was to help sell the comics a bit. People watch JL: War and then go read the New 52 JL comics and can keep up for the most part. Whereas a new person could watch DKR, like it and read new 52 Batman be puzzled. In the end, WB needs to figure out who the main audience is and decide how to attract, entice and keep all other audiences of both young and old.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Is it the fault of the animated films per sae ? They to a certain degree can only reflect the actual comic book / graphic novel out put if they are adapated and not original story arcs.

The New 52 JL is at best patchy in it's delivery of the JL as a stock group, some have come out of it very well, Aquaman, others less so, Superman.

Personally, if they adapted (which to a certain degree they have) the Snyder written Batman, single stories, then that would be a postive move IMO.

Superman : Unbound was very good and I wait with strong enthusiam the Killing Joke adaptation.

I suppose it's like everything in life, in the way of creative art, you cannot make a 'win' with every film.

Personally, would love a Green Arrow animated film.

 

[The Guard]

There is only one real DC Animated universe.

 

[TheVileOne]

Did anyone watch Bad Blood?

Spoiler

Was anyone else weirded out by the moment with Damian basically killing Walrus? He tries to save him and he's like motivationally chanting "JUSTICE NOT VENGEANCE!" Oops, too late?

I think these films are too awkwardly violent. It makes them tonally uneven.

 

[jokesonm3]

Well bringing back Bruce Timm and Paul Dini would be a fine start, especially since the latters working on the new Justice League Action kids show.

JL: Gods & Monsters was fantastic by the way.

 

[2kt09]

I get that the Batman ones are the big sellers but as I've said why not then have Batman team up with another hero or two? You've still got a Batman title and he will still be a lead in the movie. They need to give other heroes more of a chance to break out.

That has been the case since SoB.

But why can't they give us a shorter movie and a 10-20 minute short along with it. That way we can also get variety on these projects.

My big hope is that shows like the Flash, Arrow etc and the DCEU give other characters more exposure to allow them to risk doing an animated project on them.

Because the funds aren't there. They're already doing more movies/year.
The other underlined will make one hell of a difference.

Perhaps this year we can get Red Son Superman

Unless, they managed to keep that under wraps, not happening since the last PG-13 release this year is Killing Joke.

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http://voicesfromkrypton.net/vfk-exclusive-dc-tooniverse-bruce-timm-steps-down-as-producer/
http://www.toonzone.net/2013/10/nyc...liva-james-tucker-andrea-romano/#.UmrMxpTEovH

Nothing short of "Stephen Wacker replacing Jeph Loeb" if you catch my drift.
That's the quickest and easiest fix. My replacement Exec Producer would be almost any other director who did these movies if Timm still needs his break.

James Tucker is no where near as bad as Jeph Loeb, but he's not the right captain for this ship. Superman Unbound wasn't that good. Vixen wasn't that good.
His "DCAOU" has this misplaced sense of humor to go with the sporadically dumb attention to violence,
while cramming as much unnecessary filler & contrived "twists" as possible.

He more than likely operates best with the "aimed at kids" direct-to-video/web stuff,
which are surprisingly decent to great because the "fun" (be it serious or comedic) directors and writers somehow ended up on those projects.

FYI: Tucker was only involved with JL: Gods & Monsters in the char/bg designing phase.
His script for 1 of 3 minisodes of the movie was good.

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The More Challenging Solution?: Tucker finally finds better people to make this work.
I like Oliva well enough.
Ethan Spaulding getting benched was overdue. Hopefully that's a permanent sitch.
Heath Corson is 50/50.

Find the right balance between this necessary ensemble cast. I've noticed the movies within the same canon take from more than a single source & the frequency of that working is low. Tone down the blatant puns and gags. It's Tucker, UPBEAT action & adventure courses through his veins, so he can maybe retire the serious for shock value stuff or again hire people who can effectively convey that.

Plus, unless the characters have gotten/getting a major overhaul since Justice League War,
bring back the Superman (Alan Tudyk), Wonder Woman (Michelle Monaghan), and Hal Jordan (Justin Kirk) voice actors because they were the right fit.

 

[Decepticonus]

This idea of them bringing back Timm, Dini and the old voice cast will probably not happen. Plus, they don't want the same voice cast for each film if they're all different. Seriously, Conroy in New Frontier would have been quite distracting.

 

[BH/HHH]

That has been the case since SoB.

Because the funds aren't there. They're already doing more movies/year.
The other underlined will make one hell of a difference.


Unless, they managed to keep that under wraps, not happening since the last PG-13 release this year is Killing Joke.

The team ups I was talking characters outside the Batman world not just Robin, Nightwing etc.

There would be budget if they made the main feature shorter, Batman Year One was shorter hence the Catwoman short. So there would be money.

On Red Son I meant to say for the next slate.

 

[Omegabat]

This idea of them bringing back Timm, Dini and the old voice cast will probably not happen. Plus, they don't want the same voice cast for each film if they're all different. Seriously, Conroy in New Frontier would have been quite distracting.

Agreed,he wouldn't have worked in TDKR either. As for Gods and Monsters,for all the love it gets from a vocal fan base it's actually ranked lower by a greater majority than JL: War(IMDB).
It was a great movie until the climax where it became laughably stupid. Big guns with red lasers and boom tube nanites for a romance that never existed,what a payoff(sarcasm). The whole thing collapsed by it's third act,but I guess Timm's name is enough to blind people.

 

[2kt09]

As for Gods and Monsters,for all the love it gets from a vocal fan base it's actually ranked lower by a greater majority than JL: War(IMDB).

Is there something special about this "majority"? because the numbers aren't "greater".
-9,664 as in 9,664 less votes averaging 1/100 difference in rating.

 

[Wise]

I couldn't even make it through Bad Blood. Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin were tough to sit through as well.

Throne of Atlantis has been the only decent post Flashpoint movie IMO.

 

[Omegabat]

Is there something special about this "majority"? because the numbers aren't "greater".
-9,664 as in 9,664 less votes averaging 1/100 difference in rating.

So 9,664 votes are not large enough? considering Gods has been rated by almost half that number of people and is still ranked lower,barely yes but still lower. Overall the average is more or less the same as the other Post Flashpoint movies.
If Gods and Monsters was that monster achievement that people on forums make it up to be it would have ranked much higher.
Just saying that Bruce Timm and his appeal to our sensibilities doesn't mean everything he's involved in is gold to everyone.

 

[BH/HHH]

Agreed,he wouldn't have worked in TDKR either. As for Gods and Monsters,for all the love it gets from a vocal fan base it's actually ranked lower by a greater majority than JL: War(IMDB).
It was a great movie until the climax where it became laughably stupid. Big guns with red lasers and boom tube nanites for a romance that never existed,what a payoff(sarcasm). The whole thing collapsed by it's third act,but I guess Timm's name is enough to blind people.

or people just actually did like it, I had no problems with the end at all.

Also Timm has a great track record so that's enough for people to want him back. Tbh I have no problem with Tucker but I wonder if he's not getting the creative freedom he got on LOS or BATB here.

 

[Mani-Man]

I think above everything, we need to ask why the animated universe is not good.
What is it that makes many people not be interested in the movies?
Then we can start thinking about how to fix it.

A lot of it has probably to do with the fact that they focus on the new 52 storys and overall use the new 52 character traits.
This is not the best idea, but a necessary one to generate more possible buyers for the comics.

I personally really dont know why i dont like the newer movies, my first reaction to a new trailer or announcement, is that im simply not interested.
Somehow i find them simply boring.

The designs are good, the animation also...but somehow i simply find the movies mostly boring.
Son of batman has elements of 2-3 comics, but uses neither one really good imo.
A movie completely focused on batman and the court of owls, would have probably been better.
Maybe doing a two parter, where the second one involves the batfamily.
It also doesnt help that they try to make damian look like the ultimate Robin.
Having him be on eye level with Deathstroke and the Talons...is overkill.

Its hard to say what exactly is wrong and how to fix it.

 

[Omegabat]

or people just actually did like it, I had no problems with the end at all.

Also Timm has a great track record so that's enough for people to want him back. Tbh I have no problem with Tucker but I wonder if he's not getting the creative freedom he got on LOS or BATB here.

Yes but at no point did I claim that people didn't enjoy it. I merely stated that outside of forums it averages the same as the likes of War,BvR and Bad Blood.
So overall it's certainly not outstanding success that some people paint it to be.

 

[Omegabat]

I think above everything, we need to ask why the animated universe is not good.
What is it that makes many people not be interested in the movies?
Then we can start thinking about how to fix it.

A lot of it has probably to do with the fact that they focus on the new 52 storys and overall use the new 52 character traits.
This is not the best idea, but a necessary one to generate more possible buyers for the comics.

I personally really dont know why i dont like the newer movies, my first reaction to a new trailer or announcement, is that im simply not interested.
Somehow i find them simply boring.

The designs are good, the animation also...but somehow i simply find the movies mostly boring.
Son of batman has elements of 2-3 comics, but uses neither one really good imo.
A movie completely focused on batman and the court of owls, would have probably been better.
Maybe doing a two parter, where the second one involves the batfamily.
It also doesnt help that they try to make damian look like the ultimate Robin.
Having him be on eye level with Deathstroke and the Talons...is overkill.

Its hard to say what exactly is wrong and how to fix it.

Some of these problems can be attributed to Spaulding. The man among other things has no sense of scale. Aquaman vs thugs,Orm vs JL then Orm vs Aquaman? how does this make sense? then you have Batman owning Slade in 4 hits and Damian beating him. Though I dont recall Damian beating any Talon.

 

[2kt09]

So 9,664 votes are not large enough? considering Gods has been rated by almost half that number of people and is still ranked lower,barely yes but still lower. Overall the average is more or less the same as the other Post Flashpoint movies.
If Gods and Monsters was that monster achievement that people on forums make it up to be it would have ranked much higher.
Just saying that Bruce Timm and his appeal to our sensibilities doesn't mean everything he's involved in is gold to everyone.

I was checking your eyesight because it's not "a greater majority" that rated it lower.
Again, ~14,000 rated JLW compared to JLG&M's ~5,000.
It's also a more recent flick, so I don't know what that rating will be years from now.
Did you not shake your head or laugh at these negative reviews that kept wondering when the "real JL" would show up
or crying "think of the children [that this movie isn't meant for]"?

No kidding on everything Timm is involved in isn't gold to everyone.
Even when he was in charge he's had several duds.
Like I said as long as Tucker gets replaced by someone more equipped
and Timm isn't the only guy around suited for that job.

I merely stated that outside of forums it averages the same as the likes of War,BvR and Bad Blood.
So overall it's certainly not outstanding success that some people paint it to be.

Use the tomato meter because that's not the case.

I wonder if he's not getting the creative freedom he got on LOS or BATB here.

Reread the interviews I linked to. He decided on this direction back in 2013.

 

[Omegabat]

I was checking your eyesight because it's not "a greater majority" that rated it lower.
Again, ~14,000 rated JLW compared to JLG&M's ~5,000.
It's also a more recent flick, so I don't know what that rating will be years from now.

No kidding on everything Timm is involved in isn't gold to everyone.
Even when he was in charge he's had several duds.
Like I said as long as Tucker gets replaced by someone more equipped
and Timm isn't the only guy around suited for that job.


Use the tomato meter because that's not the case.


Reread the interviews I linked to. He decided on this direction back in 2013.

The information on RT is not complete,War doesn't even have an average rating there. As for fan ratings IMDB has a much larger sample which is why I went with it. Bottom line is that they're both close so Bruce Timm isn't necessarily the solution and Gods & Monsters isn't all that it is hyped up to be by some people,that's all I'm saying.
Ok the phrase I used wasn't correct,English isn't my first language,still sorry.

 

[2kt09]

@OmegaBat look into the imdb ratings of the 8 films that came before Flashpoint Paradox if you're trying to make a stronger case here.

And I've been meaning to reply to some of your fixes.

So they could increase the running time of their films considerably.

People keep asking for this and it's really not doable without limiting the amount of films or prolonging the production. A good story can be told within that runtime anyways.

Change the voice actors,I dont get the animation departments stubbornness here.

Unlike the previous run of movies where that's applicable, the movies within this canon have every right to maintain coherency by keeping the same voice actors. The movies outside of this canon do indeed change up the actors.

Focus on original material,adaptations can be controversial if not done right. Not all films can be adapted appropriately.

For better or for worse, these movies arguably have been original since they adapt so loosely.

 

[Mad Ones]

I actually really liked Throne of Atlantis. Batman vs. Robin was alright.

I think the major problem is the cold team dynamic the League has right now. Most of us still hunger for Young Justice, which brilliantly created a world where the League was entrenched, functioning, political, and prestigious. These movies undercut all of that (purposefully).

The violence and swearing is pointless. I'm not against these two things, but they seem forced because the stories never warrant that tone.

 

[Longshot777]

The worst part of these New 52 animated universe is the timeline.

I mean JL has just been formed and Batman has already 20 years in action while Nightwing, Damian, and probably most of the Titans were superheroing before Aquaman joined the JL.

JL just started yet it looks like the Titans are just a year behind.

 

[Euron]

The information on RT is not complete,War doesn't even have an average rating there. As for fan ratings IMDB has a much larger sample which is why I went with it. Bottom line is that they're both close so Bruce Timm isn't necessarily the solution and Gods & Monsters isn't all that it is hyped up to be by some people,that's all I'm saying.
Ok the phrase I used wasn't correct,English isn't my first language,still sorry.

Dude, Gods and Monsters is NOT overrated. Perhaps that flick can teach the new 52 movies how to tell an interesting story without an outright flat script.

 

[Omegabat]

Dude, Gods and Monsters is NOT overrated. Perhaps that flick can teach the new 52 movies how to tell an interesting story without an outright flat script.

Of course it is,just because a vocal group on the internet likes it doesn't mean it was a rousing sales or critical success which it certainly isn't. Ergo that praise is thus ill founded making it overrated.
You can like it,you can love it but it''s not some sort of behemoth that some of us have made it up to be.