How would Bales Batman react to Jacks Joker and Keatons B-Man to Ledgers Joker?

[Rockbottom]

I think Ledgers Joker would really be bugged by how reserved Keatons Batman is. When he wants a reaction out of Bale, he gets it, but that brings up the point, would Keatons Batman ever snap and just go insane then maul Ledger?

If Jack met the rage of Bales Batman, I think he would be certainly more afraid than Ledgers joker. Jack cowers from Keaton when he has no one left to run or hide from him while Ledger just laughs and edges Bale to hurt him more. Also Heath actually laughed as he [BLACKOUT]fell to his seeming death while Jack screamed as he fell. [/BLACKOUT]

Thoughts on how both events would pan out?

 

[Kevin Roegele]

I think Ledgers Joker would really be bugged by how reserved Keatons Batman is. When he wants a reaction out of Bale, he gets it, but that brings up the point, would Keatons Batman ever snap and just go insane then maul Ledger?

If Jack met the rage of Bales Batman, I think he would be certainly more afraid than Ledgers joker. Jack cowers from Keaton when he has no one left to run or hide from him while Ledger just laughs and edges Bale to hurt him more. Also Heath actually laughed as he [BLACKOUT]fell to his seeming death while Jack screamed as he fell. [/BLACKOUT]

Thoughts on how both events would pan out?

Ledger's Joker plays with the fact that Bale's Batman won't kill him, the Keaton Bat doesn't have that restraint. He's so terse and almost silent that I doubt Ledger's Joker would find any fun with him at all. He probably wouldn't be around long enough to try anyway.

As for the other way round, Bale's Batman is so well-prepared and methodical I think he'd finish the Nicholson Joker's schemes almost as soon as they started. And he'd take out the Joker's goons in about two seconds.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I agree with Kev on this.

Neither of the Jokers would last long if they switched worlds. Ledger Joker's ass would've been killed in the first act, and Jack Joker would be sent to Arkham just as quickly.

 

[Rockbottom]

Well, I dont think Keatons Batman would of just killed The Joker first chance he got. It seemed to be a last resort killing him in 89, also he had just found out he killed his parents.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

Well, I dont think Keatons Batman would of just killed The Joker first chance he got. It seemed to be a last resort killing him in 89, also he had just found out he killed his parents.

Arguably he did try and kill him first chance he got...but before we get into that gay hornet's nest, killing him was hardly a last resort. He says to the Joker as soon as he gets his hands on him, "I'm going to kill you."

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

Bale's Batman would eat Jack's Joker for breakfast. He was predictiable, had pretty sane motivations and rationale. And Bale's Batman was a great detective, with contingency plans and well thought out methods for fighting crime. Joker being concerned with winning over a woman? Huh ... being so physically dominated by the inferior fighter in Keaton's Batman. Bale's rage would tear apart the puny Joker that Jack was. Bale's Batman is too young, too smart, to physically overwhelming.

On the other hand, the gouhl menace that Ledger's Joker was would break Keaton's Batman apart. Physically, or mentally. He was way more intelligent and unpredictable in comparison to Jack's Joker. He also wasn't afraid of physical conflict, and in fact was fairly good as it. Knows how to weild high powered weaponry. I don't think Keaton's Batman would stand much of a chance. Ledger's Joker strikes without warning. Keaton had trouble controling a Joker who threw parades on populated downtown streets.

The Nolan verse was a more threatning world. So therefore his Batman and Joker are going to be much greater threats.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

I think Ledgers Joker would really be bugged by how reserved Keatons Batman is. When he wants a reaction out of Bale, he gets it, but that brings up the point, would Keatons Batman ever snap and just go insane then maul Ledger?

Keaton's Batman isn't more "resevred" than Bale's. Bale's anger is a ploy extrenally in most cases. The only time his veneer was starting to crack was when Maroni was telling him the Joker isn't intimidated by him, or when the Joker pushed him to the brink mentally. Keaton's Batman lost his cool a few times. In Viki's apartment, AS BRUCE WAYNE virtually giving his identity away. Or at the Cathedral when he was very clearly intent on killing the Joker.

Bale's animilatic Batman voice, and visceral growls and screams doesn't mean he isn't "in control" ...

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

Neither of the Jokers would last long if they switched worlds. Ledger Joker's ass would've been killed in the first act, and Jack Joker would be sent to Arkham just as quickly.

How? Ledger's Joker was much more unpredictable, had no previous alias, was harder to locate, was more intelligent, and didn't have sane motivations or rationales like over throwing heavyweight mob bosses ... winning over women ... or throwing announced parades on major city streets. Ledger's Joker created true mayhem. How would he have been offed in the first act? Keaton's Batman had to wait to the 3rd act to try an off the Joker that killed his parents. And that Joker isn't near the PHYSICAL threat Ledger's Joker is ... nor is he even close to the CEREBRAL and MIND F UCK threat that Ledger's Joker was.

 

[dude stannis]

Bale's Batman would eat Jack's Joker for breakfast. He was predictiable, had pretty sane motivations and rationale. And Bale's Batman was a great detective, with contingency plans and well thought out methods for fighting crime. Joker being concerned with winning over a woman? Huh ... being so physically dominated by the inferior fighter in Keaton's Batman. Bale's rage would tear apart the puny Joker that Jack was. Bale's Batman is too young, too smart, to physically overwhelming.

On the other hand, the gouhl menace that Ledger's Joker was would break Keaton's Batman apart. Physically, or mentally. He was way more intelligent and unpredictable in comparison to Jack's Joker. He also wasn't afraid of physical conflict, and in fact was fairly good as it. Knows how to weild high powered weaponry. I don't think Keaton's Batman would stand much of a chance. Ledger's Joker strikes without warning. Keaton had trouble controling a Joker who threw parades on populated downtown streets.

The Nolan verse was a more threatning world. So therefore his Batman and Joker are going to be much greater threats.

Were the hell do you get off criticizing old man Roegele for not giving credit where credit is due when you post stuff like this?

Keaton would've snapped Ledger's neck in their first meeting after going to work on him with a pair of pliers and a blow torch.

Bale would've never created the Joker in the first place and Jack Nicholson would be in jail after his stunt on Axis chemicals.

 

[November Rain]

nolan's joker would probably would have been too easy a target for keaton's batman. He wouldn't have let it get that far and he was pretty much on the ball on everything.

keaton for the win.

 

[dude stannis]

keaton's batman would probably would have been too easy a target for keaton's batman. He wouldn't have let it get that far and he was pretty much on the ball on everything.

keaton for the win.

Keaton's Batman is fighting himself? Of course he'd win t:

 

[The Joker]

Keaton would've snapped Ledger's neck in their first meeting after going to work on him with a pair of pliers and a blow torch.

LOL! Yeah, I don't think there'd have been much hesitation with the one rule there.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

Were the hell do you get off criticizing old man Roegele for not giving credit where credit is due when you post stuff like this?

WTF are you talking about? LOL ...

This thread was talking about the way characters were written in two different stories, and having a fictional "what if they squared off" discussion.

Any opinion is valid and welcomed. That's the point. I presented mine in a confident manner, backing up my claims.

Are you insane? I have no clue what you're talking about here. I wasn't criticizing anyone, or not giving credit where it's due ... huh?

Keaton would've snapped Ledger's neck in their first meeting after going to work on him with a pair of pliers and a blow torch.

I didn't know Keaton's utility belt held a pair of pliers and a blow torch. Learn something new every day.



And I highly doubt that, given a few different circumstances. Keaton had his way with a physical sissy in Jack's Joker. Heath Ledger's Joker stands 6'1, and is pretty well built. He's a gritty character who obviously knows how to throw his muscle as he willingly dispenses of trained body guards, etc. He'd be more than a few inches taller than Keaton, and showed a willingness to get physical when needed. Where as Keaton's Batman had troubles with the likes of Ray Charles in the Cathedral. An everday thug. How would Keaton snap his neck? Keaton's Batman was limited physically. If he couldn't legitimately win a fight the way a Batman should, he'd resort to strapping bomb's to people's waists, etc.

And let's say he did snap Ledgers Joker's neck, Ledger's Joker would've WON if that happened.

Ledger's Joker WANTED Bale's Batman to kill him the entire time. So he could corrupt him, show he doesn't have the fortitude to keep his sacrafice of maintaining his "one rule" ... and Keaton's Batman being mentally weaker, given he has no self imposed restraints, would give into his whims as he so often does in the two movies he's in ... would kill Ledger's Joker, as Ledger's Joker would've allowed him to ... "because that's the point" ... he'd turn the entire city against him, and he'd be a criminal and eventually tracked down and sentenced. It wouldn't be a wink / wink with the commissioner of police who agrees to "chase him" even though he knows he's the good guy. He'd be the legit bad guy.

Bale would've never created the Joker in the first place and Jack Nicholson would be in jail after his stunt on Axis chemicals.

Good point, touche. But even if he did. He'd eat that sucker for breakfast. Joker in that film was laid out on a platter and Keaton's Batman couldn't find out who he was till the final act. He can't remember the face of his parents killer till a television message from Jack Napier, even though he encountered him numerous times prior in the movie. The Joker in B89 HAS an alias. Has typical mob leader motivations such as dispensing the current power, so he can take over. Goes after Viki Vale, repreatedly, announces parade's ahead of time and still can't be stopped? Huh? The world's greatest detective in B89 couldn't deduce this new Joker was Jack Napier well ahead of time? And find him? Uhhh ...

As I said, Bale's Batman had trouble finding an actual menace who came from seemingly no where. Bale's Batman would chew up Jack's Joker and spit him out. Imagine, Jack got his ass handed to him by Keaton's Batman. Imagine what a 6'1, 210 lbs monster of ferocious physical violence in Bale's Batman, unleashing his skills on Jack's Joker? He wouldn't have time to spit out a second set of teeth. He'd be knocked out clean by a vicious elbow. Cuckoo's would be flying over the nest after Bale's Batman got ahold of Jack's Joker.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

keaton's batman would probably would have been too easy a target for keaton's batman. He wouldn't have let it get that far and he was pretty much on the ball on everything.

keaton for the win.

Keaton's Batman let civilians die at the hands of the Joker. From a PREANNOUNCE PARADE. Joker shook his ass to Prince songs for awhile before doing anything. And Keaton's Batman still couldn't stop him. Isn't that awkward?

 

[The Joker]

Keaton's Batman let civilians die at the hands of the Joker. From a PREANNOUNCE PARADE.

"You let five people die. Then you let Dent take your place. Even to a guy like me, that's cold"

Joker shook his ass to Prince songs for awhile before doing anything.

*Gasp*

You mean the Joker was being theatrical? Unbelievable!!!!

And Keaton's Batman still couldn't stop him. Isn't that awkward?

Bale's Batman never once succeeded in stopping the Joker. Joker was one step ahead of Batman all thru TDK.

At least Keaton's Batman saved Vicki, cracked Joker's poison code, and disposed of the poison gas balloons.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

"You let five people die. Then you let Dent take your place. Even to a guy like me, that's cold"

From not taking his mask off? Uhhh ...

Are you serious?

This wasn't the Joker saying when he was going to strike, and then dancing like he was in Step Up 3: Jester's Kick It ...

And his Joker was going after difficult to reach, marked officials.

Keaton's Batman couldn't save innocent civilians.

You mean the Joker was being theatrical? Unbelievable!!!!

That's not theatrical in a cool, mean spirited Joker way. That's being corny.

Or the bird dance in the scene with Viki? That was cool to you? Great theatrics.

Bale's Batman never once succeeded in stopping the Joker. Joker was one step ahead of Batman all thru TDK.

Because he was a more difficult foe. Batman stopped him from killing Dent. Batman stopped him from blowing up the ferries. Batman encarcerated the Joker.

At least Keaton's Batman saved Vicki, cracked Joker's poison code, and disposed of the poison gas balloons.

Bale's Batman saved the more important Harvey Dent, and kept him from killing boat loads of people, when the Joker finally decided to make civilians apart of his game. Bruce saved Reese, in the middle of the day mind you.

All while going up against a foe that was more intelligent, ruthless, and mad in comparison to the simpleton Jester seen in B89.

 

[The Joker]

From not taking his mask off? Uhhh ...

Are you serious?

This wasn't the Joker saying when he was going to strike, and then dancing like he was in Step Up 3: Jester's Kick It ...

And his Joker was going after difficult to reach, marked officials.

Keaton's Batman couldn't save innocent civilians.

What are you talking about? These weren't difficult to reach civilians. You can just walk up to the Judge's door and knock, like those Cops did. Loeb doesn't walk around with protection either. Or Harvey. He could have been killed any time. When he was having dinner with Rachel. When he took her to the russian ballet etc.

That's not theatrical in a cool, mean spirited Joker way. That's being corny.

Or the bird dance in the scene with Viki? That was cool to you? Great theatrics.

Yeah, that's cool to me. Joker dancing about, while defacing priceless art work, or tossing money on a crowd of soon to be victims, was cool to me.

Because he was a more difficult foe. Batman stopped him from killing Dent.

Wrong again. Joker wanted to be stopped and locked up. It's why he lied to Batman about where Harvey and Rachel were. He wanted Dent saved. He wanted to break Dent's spirit.

Gordon: "The Joker planned to be caught. He wanted me to lock him up in the MCU"

Batman stopped him from blowing up the ferries.

Only after the people saved themselves with their own morality.

Batman encarcerated the Joker.

"I think we're destined to do this forever"

Yeah, great victory capturing him after the damage was done.

Bale's Batman saved the more important Harvey Dent

But he didn't save Harvey. That's the whole point of Two Face. And he ultimately caused Harvey's death by knocking him off that ledge.

and kept him from killing boat loads of people, when the Joker finally decided to make civilians apart of his game. Bruce saved Reese, in the middle of the day mind you.

Yeah, and Keaton's Batman saved all of Gotham City by cracking Joker's poison code.

Reese was just a diversion while Joker slipped in and corrupted Harvey Dent. Again, Joker was one step ahead of Batman.

All while going up against a foe that was more intelligent, ruthless, and mad in comparison to the simpleton Jester seen in B89.

Well, that's your opinion. Joker had a higher body count in Batman '89 than he did in TDK.

For the record, I prefer TDK and Ledger's Joker over Batman '89 and Nicholson's Joker. But I still love them.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

My opinion? You just made my argument. Ledger's Joker had an intricate and highly intelligent conceived plan.

He's a more formidable villain. He actually won the battle of TDK.

 

[The Joker]

My opinion? You just made my argument. Ledger's Joker had an intricate and highly intelligent conceived plan.

No, I just shattered your arguement. You were trying to make out that Keaton's Batman couldn't even handle Nicholson's Joker. Which he did. And more successfully than Bale's Batman handled Joker.

Never once in TDK did Batman and Joker feel like equals. Which is one major flaw of the Batman/Joker relationship.

He's a more formidable villain. He actually won the battle of TDK.

He did indeed. Which speaks volumes about Bale's Batman as a hero in that movie.

 

[El Payaso]

He's a more formidable villain. He actually won the battle of TDK.

Problem is he needed more of a Keaton's Batman without rules other than to get the villiain and annihilate him. Story would be different.

 

[the GRIN Reaper]

No, I just shattered your arguement.

No, you really didn't. I was deliberately forming my opinion to show the superior villain that Heath Ledger's Joker was ... haha

You were trying to make out that Keaton's Batman couldn't even handle Nicholson's Joker.

He couldn't. And Jack's Joker wasn't near the villain Ledger's Joker was. That was my main point. Bale's Batman deal with a singificantly greater threat in his world than Keaton's Batman dealt with in an obvious and inferior criminal.

Therefore by default Bale's Batman would more easily dispose of Jack's Joker.

Never once in TDK did Batman and Joker feel like equals. Which is one major flaw of the Batman/Joker relationship.

They were equals. Batman was dealing with a threat that just happened to be far superior than the one Keaton's Batman deals with in Jack's Joker. One that he has trouble with as well. And in a comparison of Jack's Joker to Heath's? There is no comparison.

He did indeed. Which speaks volumes about Bale's Batman as a hero in that movie.

Yeah, in that he was actually a hero. He faced a legitimate threat, and the audience feels the danger, and made the most heroic act of any Batman in any Batman film. No a rythm by the books threat.

 

[The Joker]

No, you really didn't. I was deliberately forming my opinion to show the superior villain that Heath Ledger's Joker was ... haha

In that case you failed. Nicholson's Joker was more akin to the kind of chaos the Joker of the comic books does. Mass murder with a theatrical flare. Killing people with smiles on their faces. Making insane public announcements on TV to do it. Also the destroying and defacing priceless artwork was something Romero's Joker also did in the 60's Batman show.

Ledger's Joker had a more ambitious plan, no question. But it's not something I've ever seen him try in the comic books. The closest I can think of is in the Killing Joke, where he tried to prove that everyone else was just one bad day away from what he was. But he only targeted Gordon to do that. A much smaller scale scheme.

I also don't ever recall the Joker daring Batman to kill him.

He couldn't.

Please explain how. Did he fail to stop Joker taking Vicki for himself? Did he fail to crack Joker's poison code? Did he fail to remove the poison gas balloons? Did he stop the Joker for good in the end?

Therefore by default Bale's Batman would more easily dispose of Jack's Joker.

You still haven't explained how. The fact that Batman was written as an inferior to the Joker in TDK doesn't mean diddly squat. All it shows is that's not the real nature of the Batman/Joker relationship.

They were equals.

I'm sorry, but when the villain is one step ahead of the hero from start to finish, they most definitely are NOT equals. Joker was the superior all thru the movie.

Yeah, in that he was actually a hero. He faced a legitimate threat, and the audience feels the danger, and made the most heroic act of any Batman in any Batman film. No a rythm by the books threat.

No, he tries to the be a hero. He failed to stop everything the Joker did. Ultimately he just can't measure up to the Joker. All he can do in the end is turn himself into the villain by taking the blame for Harvey's crimes.

 

[itsthebatman]

So, Joker, were you dissatisfied with the portrayal of the Batman-Joker relationship in TDK?
In the end, Batman does prevent Joker blowing up the ferries, and he tracked Joker down in the first place to catch him in that act. The end of TDK felt like the end of 'Lovers and Madmen', where Joker has already done a lot of damage, Batman has been less than heroic, but ultimately Joker is incarcerated (and not by his design this time), and Batman fully accepts the role of Gotham's Guardian and all it entails.

 

[The Joker]

So, Joker, were you dissatisfied with the portrayal of the Batman-Joker relationship in TDK?

Not entirely. I was dissatisfied with how Batman was running around like a headless chicken after the Joker. Their scenes together were electric, but Batman never did feel like Joker's equal. He was always just playing catch up.

And then when we think Batman is finally outsmarting Joker, Joker goes and outsmarts him again. Like when Joker was captured. Joker was almost immortal.

In the end, Batman does prevent Joker blowing up the ferries, and he tracked Joker down in the first place to catch him in that act.

Yes, but that was dimmed by the fact that the people on the ferries had already saved themselves by being moral and not killing the other boat.

Then Joker pulls another ace out of the hole by telling Batman that this was not the pinnacle of his grand plan. Corrupting Harvey Dent was.

Joker got the last laugh again.

The end of TDK felt like the end of 'Lovers and Madmen', where Joker has already done a lot of damage, Batman has been less than heroic, but ultimately Joker is incarcerated (and not by his design this time), and Batman fully accepts the role of Gotham's Guardian and all it entails.

What Joker did in Lovers and Madmen was not nearly as grand as what he did in TDK. In TDK, Batman lost Rachel, he lost Harvey, he becamse a criminal in Gotham's eyes. All because of the Joker. Also, I could see TDK influence on that story. Like Joker's smile being cut onto his face.

 

[bunk]

Gordon could've caught Keaton's Joker himself immediately. He would've had a laugh with Bale's Batman about it later on. "You should've seen this guy!"